cupramine and angels - my log

[4FordFamily]

Ok folks, for years I have heard about angels and their intolerance to copper. I admit that in the past I have struggled. I attribute that to three things:

1) I used crappy test kits (sailifert and seachem are a must)
2) I didn't have ammonia badge to tell me when it was an issue (ammonia tests will falsely register) so I didn't change water enough
3) I used Amquel, prime, or another ammonia nitrite and nitrate detoxifier. This makes these meds TOXIC to most fish

I have a 180 that has established live rock and was a display tank with .6 ppm cupramine for two weeks. I also have a 55 gallon hospital with the inhabitants from/for my other 180 and other tanks that is currently running at .5 ppm cupramine for about the same time frame.

Here is what I am treating with cupramine:
180:
Emperor angel (4.5")
Queen angel (4.25")
Passer/King angel (5")
Blue face angel (4")
Rock Beauty angel (4")
Potters angel (3")
Moorish idol (4")
Magnificent foxface (3.5")
Yellow belly hippo tang (3.5")
Chevron tang (3")
Red coris wrasse (3")
Lime green wrasse (3")
Diamond sleeper goby (3")
Cleaner wrasse (3")

Important to note my 3" Aussie tusk has not come out since added 2 weeks ago and may be dead. It was a new addition, and added when cupramine was at .2 level or less. No other issues except that passer had pop eye that started a few days after dosing cupramine. It cleared up with water changes and time. Also, it took a week and 3x or more dosage over time to get levels where they are due to absorption. It's stable now.

The 55 is busy:
2x Flame angel
Red Sea regal angel (5.5")
2x powder blue tang (3")
Powder brown tang (3.5")
Achilles tang (3.5")
Atlantic blue tang (2.75")
Clown tang (3")
Purple tang (4.5")
Desjardini Sailfin tang (4.5")
Yellow tang (3.75")
Sand sifting goby (2.75")
Male blue star leopard wrasse (4")
Vroliks wrasse (3.5")
Cleaner wrasse (2.5")
Bicolor blenny (2")
Flame hawk (2")


No issues. Important to note that my 1.75" radiant wrasse did not make it but it didn't look good on arrival.

Daily 75% water changes on 55 gallon, Araga milk for ph, stability, and another bacteria addictive are the only things added.

Everyone is eating and doing fantastic. Half way there!

That's lots of angels doing well in cupramine. I did very gradually increase the levels over a period of 5 days.

UPDATED LIST OF SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT FISH: (in addition to above)

NEW SPECIES
- Scribbled angelfish
- Flameback angel
- Kole tang
- Goldrim tang
- Regular Sailfin tang

MORE SPECIMENS (same species more individuals):
Emperor angel
2X copperband butterflies
2 more regal Angels
2x flame angel
Achilles tang
2x powder blue tang
1x powder brown tang
2x purple tang
2x yellow tang
Desjardini sailfin tang
2x chevron tang
2x carribean blue tang
2x yellow watchman goby
Sand sifting goby
Bicolor blenny
2x flame hawkfish

MORE FAILS:
Sumatra regal angel (came sick)
Melanarus wrasse
Yellow "coris" wrasse

 

[revhtree]

Following.

 

[4FordFamily]

I might also add that I dose cupramine to replenish what is removed (50 drops) replaces copper to the level before the 32 gallon+ Daily water change. The aforementioned additives are added immediately following morning water change. In the 180 I dose nothing anymore. I dosed stability for first week. Did 35 gal water changes every other day for first week and a half of adding cupramine because of slight ammonia spikes. (Between the safe and alert colors on badge). Solid yellow now week and a half running. Weekly water change now.

 

[Z06-Hec]

Wow thats a lot of big fish in a 180...
I am scared to get an Emperor in with my Blue Face and Majestic, and my Purple tang and 2 yellow tangs.
6 foot 150 here. I really want an Emperor though, was considering getting rid of one of my yellow and testing it out.
Sorry for the side post.

 

[4FordFamily]

No you're good. Angels added within one week of each other. Zero aggression. Not very crowded yet because they're small. I plan an 8-10 foot tank soon.

Adding an angel to established Angels may not go well. Emperor are pretty sensitive upon introduction. Mine is the tank boss now.

 

[sc50964]

I also find turning the lights off or at least dim the lights will help fish that are more sensitive to cupramine to get used to it.

 

[Humblefish]

Just my 2 cents...

I didn't even know that some angels were "copper sensitive" until I started using Cupramine. Back in the day, I always used Coppersafe, and never had any issues with dwarf or regular angels. I also didn't ramp the Cu level up slowly, like I do with Cupramine; the fish went from 0 to full therapeutic all in one dose.

I learned the ins & outs of Coppersafe back when I worked for an aquarium maintenance business. The owner would order thousands of $$$ worth of fish (this was 20+ years ago, so thousands actually meant something ;)), and we would QT all the fish for at least one month prior to placing them in our clients' tanks. This included many different species of regular & dwarf angels. After picking the fish up from the airport, we would float & release (no drip acclimation) and then use this combo of medications on them:

- Coppersafe (full dosage all in one shot, which I believe was 1 teaspoon per 4 gals)
- Maracyn 1 & 2 (initial "Day 1" dosage only)

Now we would usually lose 5 or 6 fish (out of a batch of 50-60 fish), but I didn't notice any higher mortality rate with the angels. We treated primarily in 55gal QTs, using air driven undergravel filtration and like 6 inches of crushed coral substrate (the owner really liked to pack the fish in there.) No dead coral skeletons or rocks or anything for hiding spots. We never encountered flukes; didn't even know what those were. Once the fish made it out of QT and into a client's DT, they lived for years & years. Only problem was most of the fish eventually developed HLLE - which I primarily attribute to the owner's insistence of only feeding flake, plus romaine lettuce & raw shrimp once a week when we serviced the tank. We used Quality Marine exclusively as our wholesaler, if that matters.

Cupramine is ionic copper, while Coppersafe is chelated. I know that supposedly Cupramine is superior/safer to use than chelated copper. Needless to say, I have my doubts. I also think chelated copper may eradicate flukes, but I have never tested that theory. Oh, and we never bothered testing the Cu level either with Coppersafe. I know with Cupramine you need to test regularly.

 

[4FordFamily]

I've used copper safe in the past, and it did not kill ich. It may well have been user error, and I saw it no more or less toxic than others. My issues with deaths were probably the same reasons for trouble with cupramine.

I only left dt fallow for 6 weeks, maybe I had a nasty strain of ich.

 

[4FordFamily]

Update: perfectly healthy PBT dead this morning, and other PBT seized after it ate. I don't think it has anything to do with cupramine, but it's possible. This thread explains more.

No other fish showing any signs of stress or illness. Everyone eating well and appear to be thriving. Cupramine still at .5 ppm.

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fi...670-powder-blue-tang-eating-then-seizure.html

 

[4FordFamily]

Update: I found my missing banana wrasse that I thought had died, in the sump. It is enormous, probably 7". Must have been a tight squeeze... Anyway he's thriving as well. I've blocked off the overflow since my chevron tang did the same thing (that's how I found the banana).

 

[4FordFamily]

Here is a video of who has made it.
(Switch to 720P HD)


The powder blues, sohal, and achilles are new. I moved the other achilles to my angel tank because he was NASTY to the other acanthurus. The current group are pretty docile. The powder blues have been coming from Quality Marine (live aquaria purchased) VERY thin. I have sent them photos of the skeletons I have been receiving, but these two Powder Blues remain.

One of them is eating voraciously, the other is eating a bit. I have been struggling immensely with powder blues during this process.

I have lost a flame angel (of the three) - I believe he got stuck to a powerhead at the bottom right that was too powerful during his sleep, because he was doing great the night before, and several thin powder blue tangs. The leopard wrasse did not make it, neither did the radiant wrasse. However, the leopard is not entirely surprising and the radiant wrasse did not eat, so it is not surprising either. I did not replace either one. I also traded the Vroliks for a Melanarus (darker individual). The clock starts today, as everyone new is now in the tank. I also sold my purple, yellow, and desjarini sailfin and replaced with the three you see here. I also sold my clown tang and atlantic blue tang to make room for the Sohal. Those fish did not die they're all doing well.

Updated stock list:
Achilles Tang (3.25")
2X Powder Blue Tangs (3-3.25")
Powder Brown Tang (3.25")
Sohal Tang (4.5")
Purple Tang (3")
Desjardini Sailfin Tang (Juvenile) (2")
Yellow Tang (2.5")
Red Sea Regal Angel (5")
2X Flame Angel (2" and 2.5")
Flameback angel (1.75")
Melanarus Wrasse (3")
Cleaner Wrasse (2.5")
Yellow Watchman Goby
Diamond Sand Sifting Goby
Flame Hawk (2")
Bicolor Blenny

Now the clock starts.

I am considering running them through 10+ days of cupramine @ .5 or more and then running them through two tank transfers, and monitoring them afterward to see how they do. These angels have shown no issues whatsoever to copper. My only real struggle is with these skinny powder blues - I am not sure how much of it is the condition of the fish upon arrival or the treatment - either way, it is a struggle to be noted. My achilles have faired well, so too have the powder browns (I sold the 4" to keep this 3.25").

 

[4FordFamily]

Fish are all still doing well. In about two weeks or less I will start them through a mini tank transfer, and then a week or so for final observation before going in display tank. Interestingly the angels have been the least concern through this process. I also haven't had issues with either of my male Bipartus leopard wrasse males despite being together, in .55 ppm copper, and without any sand. Appear to be doing fantastic (knocks on wood).

My biggest struggle was with powder blue tangs and a Sohal tang that was seemingly perfect one day and dead the next.

I have not been able to get any halichoeres wrasse through this, however. I have lost a radiant, melanarus, and a Christmas wrasse. My Vroliks I had established prior that was in here for 3 weeks until I sold him was completely unaffected. Not sure if my halichoeres wrasse struggles are because of overcrowding, cupramine, or bad luck. Radiant are notoriously difficult anyway.

:shrug:

You would think the leopards would have more trouble.

It might also be worth mentioning that I had a seemingly healthy kuiters leopard male in here for a few days that ate and acted fine but dropped dead overnight on day 3 or 4. They're difficult though. He did not get bullied from what I saw. He was much larger than the other leopards and wrasses and was even bigger the my biggest inhabitants (a 5" regal angel and 4.5" Sohal tang)

My new pair of powder blues are thriving and although not best buddies, are as completely tolerant of one another as any other of the many tangs in this tank together. No issues. They lightly bickered for the first week or two, but once the tank pecking order was established (neither ended up being boss, the Sohal took over), they aren't very aggressive.

IME I would rather have a dominant Sohal than a PBT. I think PBT are just the nastiest, most aggressive tang on earth. I've had some timid ones, but they're worse than both Sohal I've had and any other tang. I've had nasty purple tangs that didn't come close...

PBT don't get over their aggression issues, they don't forgive and forget. A personal vendetta is permanent once established IME. Same experience when I've landed an aggressive Achilles tang. Same temperament although most of my Achilles tangs over the years have been the most docile tangs I've had including my second Achilles I have currently I this tank. My nastier, larger Achilles is now in my angel tank being kept in line by the resident emperor angel tank boss.

 

[Humblefish]

IMO; wrasses are very sensitive to medications. I've read of sudden deaths after overdosing Prazipro. I've become more comfortable using CP on fairy/flasher wrasses, but have yet to get a sixline or melanurus thru it.

 

[4FordFamily]

IMO; wrasses are very sensitive to medications. I've read of sudden deaths after overdosing Prazipro. I've become more comfortable using CP on fairy/flasher wrasses, but have yet to get a sixline or melanurus thru it.

My other Vroliks made it through without issue (prazi and cupramine) for those three weeks. I've dosed all of my tanks with prazi pro without issue with any wrasse, full ten day term.

Strange.

 

[Dalmatia]

I might also add that I dose cupramine to replenish what is removed (50 drops) replaces copper to the level before the 32 gallon+ Daily water change. The aforementioned additives are added immediately following morning water change. In the 180 I dose nothing anymore. I dosed stability for first week. Did 35 gal water changes every other day for first week and a half of adding cupramine because of slight ammonia spikes. (Between the safe and alert colors on badge). Solid yellow now week and a half running. Weekly water change now.

to many water changes if you ask me and to many additives. you most likely don't have any ammonia in your tank! its a false reading that cupramine will do to your ammonia tests kits
Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine.... hope this helps you

 

[4FordFamily]

to many water changes if you ask me and to many additives. you most likely don't have any ammonia in your tank! its a false reading that cupramine will do to your ammonia tests kits
Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine.... hope this helps you

Yeah I know, that's why I use the ammonia badge. It needed daily water changes with the high bio load per the badge by sea chem

 

[4FordFamily]

Now I do water changes every 3-4 days. The badge is solid yellow but I want them to have clean water. They're thriving so I don't want to change my procedures too drastically

 

[Dalmatia]

Now I do water changes every 3-4 days. The badge is solid yellow but I want them to have clean water. They're thriving so I don't want to change my procedures too drastically

ok, yes there is test kits that work with cupramine and work good.... you should have mentioned that you were using them :)
still too many water changes (big ones over 50%) will ****** your bacteria and suspend them from doing their job (nh3, converting to n03 to n04) but will revive after some time...

 

[Dalmatia]

ok, yes there is test kits that work with cupramine and work good.... you should have mentioned that you were using them :)
still too many water changes (big ones over 50%) will ****** your bacteria and suspend them from doing their job (nh3, converting to n03 to n04) but will revive after some time...

anyways thats what i was told from a oldy, still sceptical but you never know

 

[4FordFamily]

ok, yes there is test kits that work with cupramine and work good.... you should have mentioned that you were using them :)
still too many water changes (big ones over 50%) will ****** your bacteria and suspend them from doing their job (nh3, converting to n03 to n04) but will revive after some time...

I've done it in my tanks for over ten years. The real reason you shouldn't change larger volumes of water is to prevent parameter swings. I have it down to a science.

In addition, My bio filter (and 95% or more of everyone's bio filter) is not in the water column. Mine is in various sponges in my large hob filter and sponge in the tank itself with a pump moving water through it.