Cyano verse dinos

[DrEggroll]

A classic Dino verse cyano post. I’m waiting on my microscope. my question is does cyano grow long thread like strings that can be 5 inches long? It initially had the friable red on rocks that scraped away, but now is more fibrous and a darker red. Attached is the terrible photo but at least it is under white light.

long story for how I got here
Tank is 14 months old. Had hermits and snails an a good cleanup crew for my 120. Have a larger skimmer and chaeto that was growing very well. Feed frozen 3 times a day. My nitrates have been highest of 5 on nyos and have not really ever had phosphates test positive on salifert. Maybe a little color that I say 0.015.

I thought my poor cleanup crew wasn’t getting enough and turned by my green and red lights as I didn’t have any algae. One rock got some hair algae. I noticed it wasn’t going away and turned by lights back to very little white red green but it still wasn’t going away. Then I noticed most my snails were gone. Bought turbos and trochus several times and they would die within a few days. LFS thought my hermits(red blue and zebra) were just murdering them all. So I returned them to the LFS. The snails kept dying. Turns out my temperature probe on my heater somehow got knocked out of the tank and tank was probably running hot. Never read hot on the thermometer and when I would spot check the tank with a separate one. That’s my best guess why the snails died. Nothing else seemed harmed.

now for the screw up. I wanted to get rid of the algae and manually removed all the time but couldn’t get it gone. I fudged up and used a brush to clean the rock in the tank and it spread everywhere. I upped my water change from once monthly to bi monthly. Manually remove. I would even take rocks out scrub algae off and hydrogen peroxide sprayed a few times before rinsing and returning. The algae kept coming back. My snails kept dying before I figured the temperature thing and I was desperate. It looked like GHA and turf algae. It was on the sand. I would take as much algae off the sand and rocks.

I started once weekly vibrant as well as manually removing as much as I could. It looked to be weaker but still holding on strong. My chaeto died. Algae kept growing. I did a month and I noticed a tiny patch of cyano but still had algae. Once I figured out the heater and snails are living I stopped the vibrant.

since the new cyano or Dino’s took over. They are worse with lights on. I turned all my white lights off and shortened my light cycle. GHA retreating. I keep manually removing but it’s ongoing. The new algae is very easy to pull of rocks or blast of with a turkey baster. It’s overtaking my corals. I considered chemiclean but seeing my disaster with vibrant am hesitant and now not sure it’s cyano. Some spots have bubbles. It is growing on my blower and increasing my flow hasn’t really changed it.

all of this has been over five months and nothing suddenly changed. I use DI/RO from home. Tds 3

salinity 1.026
Ca 330-345
Mag 1200-1245
Alk 7.0-7.4
Nitrates 3-5
Phos undetectable to 0.015

 

[vetteguy53081]

Pics a little dark but I see cyano and green hair algae- indicators of elevated nitrate and phosphate
Is tank at or near a window ?

 

[ajm83]

Looks like dinos on the sand to me, however you should still check with a microscope before taking action.

Contrary to the post above, I get cyano, 'hair algae' (actually I believe it's a type of bacteria named lyngbya) and dinos when my phosphate drops too low.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Looks like dinos on the sand to me, however you should still check with a microscope before taking action.

Contrary to the post above, I get cyano, 'hair algae' (actually I believe it's a type of bacteria named lyngbya) and dinos when my phosphate drops too low.

Far from lyngbya- if anything- calothrix which is a member of cyano group.
Wrong texture and color to be Dino and very treatable . As green as algae is, far from low nutrients to support dino
The bubbles are gases trying to escape and not that of Dino which clings to the snot like substance

 

[Sarlindescent]

Can't say for the sand, but it kind of looks like the green cyano i had in my frag tank on your rocks. Mine was a result of hard zeros on nitrate and phosphate and a tank move. Siphoning didn't work. Chemiclean didn't work. Red slime remover did. A microscope is always the best option for diagnosing the problem. I have a cheap $30 Amazon one that is good enough.

 

[ajm83]

Far from lyngbya- if anything- calothrix which is a member of cyano group.
Wrong texture and color to be Dino and very treatable . As green as algae is, far from low nutrients to support dino
The bubbles are gases trying to escape and not that of Dino which clings to the snot like substance

It's under blue light which makes the true colour hard to perceive. This picture in particular looks like the dinos I had (confirmed with microscope).

I agree it could by cyano however hence the microscope comment.

Regarding lyngbya - I think you misread my post. I was talking about lyngbya in my own tank. Althought it would not surprise me if the OP also had a filamentous cyanobacteria species rather than a true algae as his parameters so closely reflected my own when I had the issue.

@DrEggroll - is your hair algae slimy to the touch?

 

[DrEggroll]

Pics a little dark but I see cyano and green hair algae- indicators of elevated nitrate and phosphate
Is tank at or near a window ?

The tank is near a south window. I only get light in the tank from November to February at that’s when it’s not gray in Michigan. The light is only for 2-3 hours when it is there maybe 1-2 times a week.
I agree with the nutrients, but my phosphates have always tested nearly unreadable and max nitrates have been 5

 

[DrEggroll]

I should also say. The first two photos are before vibrant. The last three still have GHA but not as prominent

 

[vetteguy53081]

Although microscope helps with identification, Dino as you may know is photosynthetic and loves light. Do does cyano.
Starving the light alone will slow their process
I’ve gotten dozens through cyano and Dino without scope
I did assume you meant lingbya which requires elbow grease

 

[vetteguy53081]

The tank is near a south window. I only get light in the tank from November to February at that’s when it’s not gray in Michigan. The light is only for 2-3 hours when it is there maybe 1-2 times a week.
I agree with the nutrients, but my phosphates have always tested nearly unreadable and max nitrates have been 5

I asked about window as UV is very strong and even indirect lights from window will cause such algae bloom
Best recourse is to block light from the side that faces window (at least during the day)
Turn off white lights altogether for 5 days
Pull as much algae as you can by hand and net up the loose particulate
During the day. Add 1.5ml of liquid bacteria per 10 gallons and CC at night add 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons also for 5 days
After 5 days resume white lighting schedule and add snails such as:
Astrea
Turbo grazer
Nassarius
Cerith
Nerite
Even a pin cushion urchin

 

[DrEggroll]

It's under blue light which makes the true colour hard to perceive. This picture in particular looks like the dinos I had (confirmed with microscope).

I agree it could by cyano however hence the microscope comment.

Regarding lyngbya - I think you misread my post. I was talking about lyngbya in my own tank. Althought it would not surprise me if the OP also had a filamentous cyanobacteria species rather than a true algae as his parameters so closely reflected my own when I had the issue.

@DrEggroll - is your hair algae slimy to the touch?

The hair algae I can pull out in clumps. Not really slimy. The long dark red that grows 5-7 inch threads that float in the water is slimmy

 

[DrEggroll]

I asked about window as UV is very strong and even indirect lights from window will cause such algae bloom
Best recourse is to block light from the side that faces window (at least during the day)
Turn off white lights altogether for 5 days
Pull as much algae as you can by hand and net up the loose particulate
During the day. Add 1.5ml of liquid bacteria per 10 gallons and CC at night add 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons also for 5 days
After 5 days resume white lighting schedule and add snails such as:
Astrea
Turbo grazer
Nassarius
Cerith
Nerite
Even a pin cushion urchin

My white lights have been off for two weeks. My windows are tinted that I have trouble growing plants in my house. I don’t have nerite or cerith but everything else for CUC. Whats liquid bacteria? Is there a certain brand or species to add?

 

[DrEggroll]

Any other ideas now that I posted better photos?

 

[ajm83]

Any other ideas now that I posted better photos?

Look at it under a microscope, I still think it's dinos in which different actions are needed.

I think you should stop doing anything until it's confirmed either way as you can make the problem worse easily.

 

[DrEggroll]

So definitely looks like Dino’s. I looked at a Dino guide https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellate-identification-guide.671466/
And it looks like ostreopsis under the microscope. The objects did not move under the microscope at all. In my tank they grow long 7 inch threads and are towards the top of the tank. Not too many bubbles on them, although another area doesn’t have the long threads with bubbles and still looks the same.

what do people think? Now just starting to research treatment

 

[vetteguy53081]

Any other ideas now that I posted better photos?

Looks likes cyano and not dino and the window will contribute now that I see it in pics.
As for cyano . . . .
Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations go haywire. Just like when you eat too much sugar and your waistline starts to bloom, the same happens in your tank when concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank beautifully clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 5-7 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the week, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

 

[DrEggroll]

Look at it under a microscope, I still think it's dinos in which different actions are needed.

I think you should stop doing anything until it's confirmed either way as you can make the problem worse easily.

You were correct. Just took me long enough to open the microscope box

 

[DrEggroll]

So definitely looks like Dino’s. I looked at a Dino guide https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellate-identification-guide.671466/
And it looks like ostreopsis under the microscope. The objects did not move under the microscope at all. In my tank they grow long 7 inch threads and are towards the top of the tank. Not too many bubbles on them, although another area doesn’t have the long threads with bubbles and still looks the same.

what do people think? Now just starting to research treatment

 

[ajm83]

You were correct. Just took me long enough to open the microscope box

No prob shame i was right though, cyano would have been easier :(

Anyway if they are ostreopsis, then in a way you are very lucky! They migrate into the water column at night so the usual way to treat them is using an oversized UV system and ensuring nutrients (phos + nitrate) stay consistently above zero.

Do not bother adding more CUC just yet, these are dinos are unfortunately toxic to CUC.

PS. if you're not 100% on the ID it's worth asking one of the experts on the threads on here or the FB dino groups, as different species are treated with different methods. (For example some go into the water at night, some hide in the sand).

 

[DrEggroll]

I followed the method from https://www.reef2reef.com/members/vetteguy53081.31438/ above. Lights down. H2o2 at night. Microbacter during the day. Currently ramping my lights up now. No signs of the Dino’s