Cycle and stocking advice

[fittiger]

I need some advice on whether to start stocking my tank or wait. It's been 6-7 yrs since I've had a tank so I feel I'm out of the loop.

My current situation is as follows:

5/26/16 - Live Rock delivered.....Added saltwater, live rock and live sand. Rock was purchased from Live Rock and Reef and shiping time was 4 days.

5/27/16 - Removed live rock and scrubbed with a toothbrush.....it had a bunch of black stuff on it. Did a 90% water change. Added Biospira bacteria.

6/1/16 - Tested water, Ammonia - 0, Nitrate - 100ish. (Used Nutrafin Kit can't really read results well. <abbr title="Local Fish Shop">LFS</abbr> talked me out of buying Nitrite kit).

6/5/16 - 80% Water Change. Tested Water, Ammonia - 0, Nitrate - 20ish.

6/6/16 - Tested Water, Ammonia - 0, Nitrate - 20ish. Bought API test STRIPS, shows Ammonia -0, Nitrite -0, Nitrate -20.

So it's been 11 days since I first added rock/water/sand to my system and ammonia seems to be stable, nitrite seems to be at 0, and nitrates seem to be stable at around 20.

What is my best path forward for adding fish to the system? Do another large water change to reduce nitrates and start adding slowly this weekend? Wait another 2 weeks (will this affect the nitrifying bacteria present) before adding fish?

I don't want to put any livestock in the tank with unsuitable conditions and don't mind waiting until the time is right. I just don't know when that is.

 

[CarrieB]

Seems tricky figuring out if your rock is cycled since you never saw any ammonia or nitrite. You could add some ammonia and see if it's gone the next day, just to make sure.

 

[michellejy]

You need to feed your empty tank to maintain the bacteria.

 

[fittiger]

What source should I add and what timeframe to I give it to test ammonia/nitrite?

 

[michellejy]

Some people use pure ammonia. I just feed the tank fish food and test later in the day.

 

[brandon429]

This will help clarify the start date
http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-ta...d-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

Test nitrite at no time it's not required only the action of ammonia is required.

*post number 8 on that thread is your tank cycle detail


the takeaway between this thread and your setup:





-no bac are lost in shipping
-assess die off/ammonia with accurate test kit
-begin reefing when die off has stopped, bac were ready day 1.



* To dose ammonia to a known living system (your live rock has more than just bacteria now) is to heavily stress animals you don't want dying. Thousands of people already bac tested their live rocks, you do not have to, it's a known and repeatable condition (what marine bacteria do)



Beginning with ultimate aquarium control is why it's worth detailing these critical starting details. To dose further ammonia for your kind of cycle means we might kill some more pods, or more worms

 

[Junbug0024]

Just curious why you are doing such large water changes? I think you may have not seen an ammonia spike because you've done such large water changes. Maybe put a little chunk of shrimp and see what happens with your ammonia and nitrates.

 

[Cment]

Dose ammonia up to 2ppm if the tank registers 0ppm in 24 hrs it's good to go. I suspect your cycle just never really began, I know you used live rock but it was shipped and had die off which would create a spike in ammonia. Avoid adding anything to the tank until you have reliable test kits for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. This is a good product to easily measure the level of ammonia to add:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...Dq4aB9C1v49_AYFCPvjx74n9ypgLUyjd4oaApuc8P8HAQ

 

[fittiger]

Just curious why you are doing such large water changes? I think you may have not seen an ammonia spike because you've done such large water changes. Maybe put a little chunk of shrimp and see what happens with your ammonia and nitrates.

I initially did a large water change because the rock had discolored the water with all the debris it had on it. I did another the other day because I wanted to reduce the large amount of nitrates in the system.

Dose ammonia up to 2ppm if the tank registers 0ppm in 24 hrs it's good to go. I suspect your cycle just never really began, I know you used live rock but it was shipped and had die off which would create a spike in ammonia. Avoid adding anything to the tank until you have reliable test kits for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. This is a good product to easily measure the level of ammonia to add:

If the was never any ammonia, why were the nitrates so high, I used to ro/di?

And surely the would have been some sort of ammonia coming from there rock with all that it had on it. I didn't scrub it clean, just on the areas with loose nasty debris.

 

[brandon429]

Yes the reference thread supports that. You would do the amount of water changes required so that you test zero ammonia, not any, yours is the type of cycle that demands no ammonia be added.

You are seeing nitrates because the rock is loaded with filtration bacteria, not that it might be. Whether you got an initial ammonia spike has nothing to do with the bac at all, and we want the ammonia spike stopped immediately and to never occur if possible because of the living animals we pay extra for. Ammonia spikes are only needed when bacteria is in doubt, the kind of rock in doubt has nothing living on it, no coralline

 

[fittiger]

Yes the reference thread supports that. You would do the amount of water changes required so that you test zero ammonia, not any, yours is the type of cycle that demands no ammonia be added.

You are seeing nitrates because the rock is loaded with filtration bacteria, not that it might be. Whether you got an initial ammonia spike has nothing to do with the bac at all, and we want the ammonia spike stopped immediately and to never occur if possible because of the living animals we pay extra for. Ammonia spikes are only needed when bacteria is in doubt, the kind of rock in doubt has nothing living on it, no coralline, yours is totally living.

The clues you are responding to are the details of how your rock differs from the other two types. It's doing as predicted for sure.

Brandon, thanks for the info. I read through that post, most of it I understood. Unfortunately I still do not know which category my rock actually falls into.

There were a few spots of coralline algae on the rocks when i first got them. There were actually several sizeable clams embedded into a couple of the rocks. They were brown and seemed dead so I removed them in my cleaning. Otherwise, I really can't seem to find any other benthic living organisms on them. No pods, no worms, no snails.

So where does that leave me?

 

[brandon429]

The coralline and embedded clams were the only proof needed of full bacteria per visual proofs, nice detail.

Even if clams were empty but accreted, that's a years long chart right there. gives some statement about live rock origin (ocean=best bacteria)

Typically upon closer inspection we can find smaller animals to verify the diverse settings where the rock was claimed matured. If not, it's ok to press the dealer for origins, few are trying to cheat they're honest with me anyway.

The coralline means the submersion hasn't been just recent... it'd be bleached. coralline takes months usually to plate.


There may or may not be worms we see, but something from a meat origin had to die mid shipping to produce the initial spike... plants won't do that (plant decay is low protein low ammonia, meat/full protein is highest ammonia producer per unit of mass)<----we are assuming they are there even if your particular shipment has few or none.

This whole procedure disregards bacteria, and regards what could die and continue unneeded decay because the bacteria require zero assistance, the tiny animals require total assistance if applicable.

Those growths you see take months and years to fixate, bacteria hours... that's why seeing certain things on rocks indicates bacteria as long as meds don't factor.


You likely have group B rock. The similarity of your tank and post 8 is the shipping factor, and the CPR moves you do on shipped live rock to arrest decay if applicable. I think per your results tested ammonia is zero, you've won most likely. As crazy as it sounds in the thread, lifting out a sample of your live rock and smelling it outside tank is a very highly accurate ammonia arrest verification method...olfaction is amazing ammonia detector.

 

[fittiger]

As crazy as it sounds in the thread, lifting out a sample of your live rock and smelling it outside tank is a very highly accurate ammonia arrest verification method, olfaction beats api

The rock stinks, but not of an ammonia smell. It smells like a stinky beach.

 

[brandon429]

Ha yes I can imagine ~ that's the organics/phenols/aerosolized compounds of live rock. Rot will be skunk on road clear

We should see pics of this rock ~ and keep it submerged a good time now to more slowly cure out into what an aquarium typically supports. A slow managed dieoff is well within the ability of the nitrifiers to handle plus your beginning tank bioload, there was that much bacteria.

 

[fittiger]

 

[fittiger]

Ha yes I can imagine ~ that's the organics/phenols/aerosolized compounds of true diverse live rock. Rot will be skunk on road clear

We should see pics of this rock ~ and keep it submerged a good time now to more slowly cure out into what an aquarium typically supports. A slow managed dieoff is well within the ability of the nitrifiers to handle plus your beginning tank bioload, there was that much bacteria.

Definitely not like skunk or road kill.

The rock is in the display and will stay submerged.

So you're saying it's safe to add fish?

 

[brandon429]

Hey youre right that isn't packed with tons of obvious leafy growths etc post 8 is the ocean direct kind, this pic looks tank grown. I do believe it's live based off your origins and shipping details moreso than the pics now.

The digestion test can tell, the first posters made good call.

That could easily be just vat cured live rock which is no big deal (bac are bac for nitrification needs) but do you have a link to where that rock offered for sale? We typically see tons, tons of white worms dotting rock etc just curious how sale pics line up


*they may be selling tank matured live rock which is easy to produce, ships well with low die off, and the bacteria transfer just fine. can be missing other obvious growths, but still are loaded with bac...

Those offers above to test with ammonia are valid per pics. It is hard right now to tell if your water is doing the filtration, or the rock. The nitrate you see can easily be from bacteria put into suspension via bottled items, not necessarily that which is from the rock, so we're past the point of knowing how much filtration the rocks actually do. We will know after seeing how the dealer preps them.


I'd assumed that was ocean direct/uncured but you won't have to wait for curing time now... if those have coralline they are likely good to go and shipping them without all that is a less stinky process anyway. The hq dense stuff they usually want airport pickup next day.



Different sellers are promising different things...rocks fully cycled don't have to look pretty.


Can you do a white spec only pic, no blues, which will show only coralline

 

[brandon429]

Also I spy another possible unmentioned confound

Is that Caribsea wet pack ocean direct sand

 

[fittiger]

Also I spy another possible unmentioned confound

Is that Caribsea wet pack ocean direct sand

No, Caribsea aragalive special grade reef

 

[brandon429]

That I believe is an additional source of bac too if it was wet pack type. my old sand was aragalive Fiji pink

Digesting 2 ppm ammonia can likely be done by the sand alone so that seemed to be added power for your filtration base not even considering the rock. Plus we have the dosed nitrospira from the bottle bac, all still adds up good to go I bet

Do you have a link to the live rock from the site