"Cycled" tank with ammonia

[Kynzo]

Hey guys, new here.
So I've had my tank for about 2 close to 3 months. I've added bottled bacteria (1 instant ocean, and dosed seachem). However it's still showing trace amounts of ammonia. Around 2 ppm. Irresponsiblely I did add a clown fish, a gsp, and a Duncan around a month and a half ago when i did a water test and didn't see any ammonia. However I just did a water change today and decided to test and I saw ammonia. Everyone appears healthy and doing well. But it's just concerning. Thanks for the responses

 

[Malifry97]

What test kit? I really can’t see after 3 months any ammonia being present. Maybe for piece of mind throw In a bottle of biospira.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed it's biologically impossible.

Your animals would die overnite in a tank that isn't able to process all ammonia. Also look at this thread. These are the best chemists in reefing if they thought you had free ammonia, you'd know it

We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

Why does it matter if reef tanks can have stuck cycles? Because when you move homes you don't want to lose animals, cycling science needs precision and predictability in order to protect our tanks. perhaps an emergency setup is needed, no wait time permitted or If you are invited to show...

www.reef2reef.com

Im introducing your thread there. You will have follow up in a few weeks that will be some of the newest measures in reefing that's for sure. You cannot find a reefing article or research paper to discuss what we're discussing there.

**the fact you are reporting something higher than .25 does not matter

all the processes described for surface area there are hardfast rules, you aren't using a digital measure. but your concern is selling bottle bac in droves, thousands of dollars worth, where not needed. Thousands of reefers have (had) the same concerns.

Your tank is literally ok, with nothing to possibly doubt, because your animals live overnite again.

Brandon

 

[krash7172]

Could be in your tap water. Wait 24 hrs and check again and I bet the ammonia is gone.

 

[lapin]

In fish, the principal metabolic waste product is ammonia. Because it is continuously excreted by fish as they go about their business, you will always have ammonia in your tank.

 

[brandon429]

yes, as seneye says about x thousandths worth but I see your point it is a fact each tank has free ammonia/transition point.

to summarize the reference link, ammonia can never hold at any given number in a reef tank of sand and rock after this many weeks underwater. In a bare glass tank it can, because that's no surface area to act on ammonia.

in a reef tank ammonia is the #1 fuel for respiration chains so none is left, ever. a dead fish can certainly spike it; but that's not a hold. its a spike then a downgrade to zero. at no point would measures hold, unless api is the test.

If a true reef tank having rock and sand could ever sustain ammonia in the tenths or hundredths, that would be a compounding system that would spike, and kill the whole tank overnite because it means you don't have enough surface area. Any reef lacking surface area crashes when a bioload is in place, overnite.

Ammonia is never stalled, its always at zero (for what you can measure) or its wrecking your tank, overnite. we know you have a false read by your submersion time and your stated animal behavior.

Common additives like prime will specifically cause false ammonia readings, there's so many confounds its not worth pinpointing.

Change some water for peace of mind, and continue on.

 

[brandon429]

we can also use a time capsule view to assess your stated measure. If you posted this exact thread in 2006 you would see:

-your filtration system never had a chance to catch up to your bioload, its chronically behind. The reason you are detecting ammonia is you did not wait long enough to add fish.

-what have you dosed, or added to the tank that could be an antibiotic? you've killed off a quarter of your filter bac so the rest are lagging behind (cannot occur, lack of surface area never presents a holding measure it presents an incapable system that crashes overnite)

-have you changed a lot of water lately, this can remove bac and destabilize the filtration system


-what you would never, ever, ever, ever see is a question of test kit accuracy. State 1 ppm, everyone believes you instantly and will fiercely debate any detraction.

Behavior of animals would be 100% not factored in 2006, the test would be trusted to all ends totally and you would never ever gain closure but the thread would be 30 pages by Monday.

 

[Kynzo]

Agreed it's biologically impossible.

Your animals would die overnite in a tank that isn't able to process all ammonia. Also look at this thread. These are the best chemists in reefing if they thought you had free ammonia, you'd know it

We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

Why does it matter if reef tanks can have stuck cycles? Because when you move homes you don't want to lose animals, cycling science needs precision and predictability in order to protect our tanks. perhaps an emergency setup is needed, no wait time permitted or If you are invited to show...

www.reef2reef.com

Im introducing your thread there. You will have follow up in a few weeks that will be some of the newest measures in reefing that's for sure. You cannot find a reefing article or research paper to discuss what we're discussing there.

**the fact you are reporting something higher than .25 does not matter

all the processes described for surface area there are hardfast rules, you aren't using a digital measure. but your concern is selling bottle bac in droves, thousands of dollars worth, where not needed. Thousands of reefers have (had) the same concerns.

Your tank is literally ok, with nothing to possibly doubt, because your animals live overnite again.

Brandon

Thanks appreciate the response. I felt the same way, everything is living and appears to be doing well. The kit must be a misreading. I'm trying to get some salifert test kits but haven't had any luck locally. Probably gonna have to shop online.

 

[Kynzo]

Cheap a

What test kit? I really can’t see after 3 months any ammonia being present. Maybe for piece of mind throw In a bottle of biospira.

Cheap api it's just the only kits I could find at the store at the time. But I'm trying to upgrade.

 

[Malifry97]

Cheap a

Cheap api it's just the only kits I could find at the store at the time. But I'm trying to upgrade.

API is fine for just about everything except phosphate and ammonia

 

[EMeyer]

Most of these false readings can be solved with appropriate use of blanks. The chemistry is generally fine IMO, it's the color cards that are bunk.

 

[brandon429]

I would also add that the kits are not reliable for low level assessment, they’re helpful when they turn solid green to indicate a dead fish we didn’t know was wedged in the rockwork.

the -change- of a reading is able to be seen by API but we can see in these types of threads the bottom line measure won’t be.

*thousands of people have accurate api zero measure posts/acknowledged


and so do the misread owners...unreliable=a mix of thousands of both good and bad readings.

lets say the reefer calibrates a hard zero off clean saltwater then tests the display and gets a sustained reading in the presence of healthy bioload, test is still wrong. Perhaps they forgot to tell us they used Prime in the initial water prep...either way, living bioload is the final proof it will never be an api kit, for reasons unstated/using fw card for marine/reagent non shaking/green hued kitchen lighting/incorrect tube fill amnts etc, so many confounds.

so far our seneye tests don’t show any confounds thankfully. What seneye reads always lines up with visual biology we can see


this thread is a Prime example /pun intended for bottle bac sales. The people who sell us bottle bac, for fake stalled cycles issues, have withheld the information about mis testing, result is we buy bottle bac to feel ok only


that these animals are fine two months later is a testament to how much we are getting ripped off by bottle bac sellers, who never told us any of the real cycling info used here.

see false search paradigm, resulting ad:

not any reef above was stalled, not a single one, reef cycles using rocks and sand cannot stall.

 

[brandon429]

@Kynzo can you post an updated full tank shot pic

 

[brandon429]

I want all reef readers to keep an eye out for bottle bac sales as they absolutely boon in this hobby, many times sold for conditions that do not exist

more seneye use and data posted will drive sales back down, by showing accurately how well ammonia is controlled on wet surfaces.

our systems maintain their bacteria without supplementation, without dosing, without having to buy things, do not buy$ into the probiotics phase coming to reefing your cash is about to get taken

what happened here is the antithesis to buying something to feel good, resolution occurred when Kynzo posted: So I've had my tank for about 2 close to 3 months. I've added bottled bacteria


end, that’s all we needed to know he was 100% cycled and couldn’t be not cycled.


we can’t rely on any aspect of the bottled bacteria sales machine to be truthful to us. Resolve is the #1 thing being withheld by the sales machine, a purchase fills in where certainty isn’t.

we will reintroduce resolve into reef cycling for sure. One thread at a time.

 

[mrlavalamp]

we can’t rely on any aspect of the bottled bacteria sales machine to be truthful to us.

I learned this lesson when I had my first kid. There are aisles, shelves, stores, WAREHOUSES full of junk marketed towards new parents and infants. 95% of it is GARBAGE and not necessary or even helpful at all, just more stuff in the way cluttering things up. The advertising and packaging on the products would certainly have you believe they are totally necessary and cannot be lived without though.

I love your posts Brandon because I am getting back into salt/reefs after a 10 year hiatus, and lots of equipment on brs, marinedepot et al has my "spider sense" tingling that I am getting taken for a ride and don't really need it. I got out in 08 because I as broke, and now that I am not, I am not trying to fork over all my hard earned dough just because someone wants to sell me something.

The modern, scientific method I would call it, of cycling a tank with bottle ammonia and bottle bacterias seems much more preferable to me than just "toss in a shrimp" method.

 

[brandon429]

Overall I do like BRS videos they seem to be fair regarding testing and reporting and overall I enjoy seeing their work. my soapbox has some odd inclusions, I’m actually pro bottle bac lol it’s just the 3x dosing, my tester says cycle stuck, buy more, stuck, another brand, wait two mos, stuck et al and those doctors could have told us 20 years ago to have more faith in our resident bacteria.

doubt was interjected based on interpretations of the tests above, reef cycles cannot stall.

Heck, they managed to write cycle charts in the ’40s I think (let’s try and search out how long nitrification has been known) but it was before bottle bac was on scene. Cycle charts solve for params when we solve for time, on the left side of the chart. It’s reliable, and nowadays boosted much faster due to bac (while establishing maximum time frames as well, we are all cycled by day 30 max)

We should have been told that ammonia doesn’t rise back up naturally, due to lack of bacteria, after day ~30 unless sustained antibiotic measures, or lack of surface area, is in play.
in the end my goal is for hobbyists to use repeating clues and patterns to call something done, ready, safe, can go. Not going to crash. resolution with just a description is possible. can cycle reefs not only without seeing test kits, but by challenging their measure.


post tank pics it would be funny if this was a big punking and all his fish died weeks ago after typing all this

 

[Kynzo]

yes, as seneye says about x thousandths worth but I see your point it is a fact each tank has free ammonia/transition point.

to summarize the reference link, ammonia can never hold at any given number in a reef tank of sand and rock after this many weeks underwater. In a bare glass tank it can, because that's no surface area to act on ammonia.

in a reef tank ammonia is the #1 fuel for respiration chains so none is left, ever. a dead fish can certainly spike it; but that's not a hold. its a spike then a downgrade to zero. at no point would measures hold, unless api is the test.

If a true reef tank having rock and sand could ever sustain ammonia in the tenths or hundredths, that would be a compounding system that would spike, and kill the whole tank overnite because it means you don't have enough surface area. Any reef lacking surface area crashes when a bioload is in place, overnite.

Ammonia is never stalled, its always at zero (for what you can measure) or its wrecking your tank, overnite. we know you have a false read by your submersion time and your stated animal behavior.

Common additives like prime will specifically cause false ammonia readings, there's so many confounds its not worth pinpointing.

Change some water for peace of mind, and continue on.

Well said, thanks for the words of wisdom.

 

[Kynzo]

@Kynzo can you post an updated full tank shot pic

You want to see my tank??! Of course! I just turned the light on (kessil a80) so everything isn't fully extended. Also a nassarius snail I have just went over the zoa frag on the left down in the sand bed and that's why it's all closed up. I've been getting a little frustrated with my snails traversing all over my corals and what seems to be upsetting them. I don't know if I should relocate the zoas to somewhere on the rocks because of this. But the AOI I have on the right never seems to be as sensitive as the blonde on the left. Any thoughts, comments, questions, or concerns are welcomed. Been at this for less than a year and love any feedback from the community.

 

[Kynzo]

I've been meaning to get some bonecutters to remove frag plugs and clean up the look of the tank but I'm not too keen on gluing down most of my corals since I'm not 100% confident in placement. And once they're glued down it seems like quite the hassle of trying to remove them from the rocks and reglue etc, etc. If I don't get the placement right the first time. I've been happy with how everything is going, except for the flow in my tank. I currently have a top fin powerhead rated for 118 gph. I couldn't find anything locally that was small enough for my tank(6 gallon btw) without just blowing sand around. Any recommendations would be great, I've been shopping around online and was interested in the hydor Pico or possibly 2 mini jets I think is what they're called, but wanted additional confirmation. Thanks guys, this is the most number of responses I've received on any reef/fish forum since I've started posted.

 

[brandon429]

Well done. Specifically from that picture here is how we know it’s cycled and done, we aren’t consulting a test kit, it’s the visual biology that accurate testers like seneye always support:

-very mild cyano red patch on sand. All reefs have cyano its typical for new tanks, it’s presence proves nitrifers are set because filter bac are the under layer to cyano mats, not the top layer. Bacteria are first to colonize a submerged surface, secondary benthic growths like that mat confirm cycling. No cyano matting can build up quicker than a nitrifier base.

-fish not panting at the top. Gills are burned red by even slight sustained ammonia, cannot breathe cannot excrete, death overnite.

-we must factor in all the feed that has been added, feed input alone will rot an uncycled tank and it will be a loss cascade if fish are present, and the reef isn’t cycled.


-cross section pic of your sandbed shows pigmentation in the middle, time is passing by and this reef is maturing, it’s plenty past cycle phase. At no time in reefing can any pigments have time to form in a reef tank while the nitrifying base is lagging, the order of ops is the other way around: filter bac first, then algae then coralline then coral flesh

-ratios of surface area. Sand + rock + living bioload cannot ever stall, it’s massive surface area. Even without the sand, the rock alone can handle even more fish, there’s that much surface area inside just rocks alone, the sand makes it over the top surface area, its why the tank cycled so fast off your first booster added with water upon setup.


we did not consult nitrite nor nitrate not once in this cycle call. Testing for parameters using test kits that misread for half the population is apparently no longer required in the hobby