Cycling an Aquarium

[brandon429]

do you believe Brew this is the first cycling outlier for ammonia is that right?


we just disregard seneye reads, that they never ever vary...that we can’t see them here to factor

aquariums do not vary in ammonia control when seneye is the indicator, they’re converting in the thousandths ppm -fast-
with these boosters in place. Benthic clues abound here, those are nitrifer proofers.

no variation on seneye or mindstream cycles


but here? Fully varied. Not compliant, bac are dead. A single test kit says it, we close the book.


searching ammonia misread threads we see how common this issue is, we have ten a week...a month ago it took me 8 pages to convince someone with a perfect reef they didn’t have 8 ppm api free ammonia.

non seneye readers always dig in heels with certainty. They tell us how bacteria work, that their system doesn’t follow book rules.

Not one seneye has ever shows ammonia holding in the tenths not ever. Yet that’s routine here.

It doesn’t occur, your cycle isn’t stuck. I’m out though for sure on this tank... am fully aware people will not accept challenge to non seneye stuck cycle posts, it’s easier to keep peace this way, accept the cycle is stuck and re purchase more bottle bac.

I wasn’t having you add fish into a system that would burn them. You were advised to change large % water to export strong doses of ammonia. You're dealing with testing wastewater, I had you dealing with clean water + biofilm surfaces.


as this thread unfolds against a growing availability of seneye cycle logs, the truth will reveal regarding what bacteria do. Reef convention start dates will always be the unicorn in the forest for forum cyclers. Convention cyclers will lead, we will follow with massive variation, and we will pay them for products to streamline that understood variation.


whoever built this market for cycling doubt is a genius but it’s ill-gotten gains in my opinion. Once we all see that cycles can’t stall I hope you’re angry at people who tried to sell you stuck cycle fixes in a bottle. I wish baseball umpires had to wear those distortion goggles when making home plate calls, tension in the crowd would be awesome to watch, better than the game. this tank has new growths in the system which prove cycling, there has been time underwater its not adding fish to liquid ammonia at all.

its understandable how today's colorimetric test kits can lead to so much subjectivity. We have enough no-stalled cycle proof threads nowadays its getting harder to entertain the status quo for free ammonia claims in posts though.

 

[canadianeh]

do you believe Brew this is the first cycling outlier for ammonia is that right?


we just disregard seneye reads, that they never ever vary...that we can’t see them here to factor

aquariums do not vary in ammonia control when seneye is the indicator, they’re converting in the thousandths ppm -fast-
with these boosters in place. Benthic clues abound here, those are nitrifer proofers.

no variation on seneye or mindstream cycles


but here? Fully varied. Not compliant, bac are dead. A single test kit says it, we close the book.


searching ammonia misread threads we see how common this issue is, we have ten a week...a month ago it took me 8 pages to convince someone with a perfect reef they didn’t have 8 ppm api free ammonia.

non seneye readers always dig in heels with certainty. They tell us how bacteria work, that their system doesn’t follow book rules.

Not one seneye has ever shows ammonia holding in the tenths not ever. Yet that’s routine here.

It doesn’t occur, your cycle isn’t stuck. I’m out though for sure on this tank... am fully aware people will not accept challenge to non api misreads it’s easier to keep peace this way.

I wasn’t having you add fish into a system that would burn them.


as this thread unfolds against a growing availability of seneye cycle logs, the truth will reveal regarding what bacteria do.

I simply believe that I used defective 3 plus year old ammonia since day 1. It makes sense how the ammonia stayed 0.5 for the whole 2 weeks even though I kept dosing ammonia. Don't you think this weird?

After I bought new batch of dr.tims ammonia and dosed it according to the instruction, I was able to get a reading of 1.5 ppm just an hour after the dosing. I don't think this is a coincidence, don't you think? It is the same test kit but using fresh batch of ammonia.

With this new information, is it not wise to assume that my tank was never fed the right amount of ammonia due to expired ammonia bottle and thus the bacteria MIGHT never grew as how it was supposed to be had I fed them with the correct amount of ammonia?

 

[Brew12]

Maybe because of the defective 3 years old ammonia bottle?

That probably isn't helping but these bacteria are very resilient. Keep in mind that the method you have chosen to perform your cycle is much more challenging for the bacteria to process than what would have happened had you just added fish and lightly fed them. Odds are good that the bottled bacteria would have handled that. The path you are going gives you reassurance that the system is ready and also gives you a much larger margin for error should you accidentally dump too much food or if a fish dies and isn't immediately removed.

When do I do large WC? when the nitrite and ammonia reads 0?

I'm not one to say that a large water change is needed at the end of a cycle. I would wait until your ammonia stabilizes and nitrite is 0 and then see what your nitrate is. Then determine if a water change is necessary.

 

[Brew12]

do you believe Brew this is the first cycling outlier for ammonia is that right?


we just disregard seneye reads, that they never ever vary...that we can’t see them here to factor

aquariums do not vary in ammonia control when seneye is the indicator, they’re converting in the thousandths ppm -fast-
with these boosters in place. Benthic clues abound here, those are nitrifer proofers.

no variation on seneye or mindstream cycles


but here? Fully varied. Not compliant, bac are dead. A single test kit says it, we close the book.


searching ammonia misread threads we see how common this issue is, we have ten a week...a month ago it took me 8 pages to convince someone with a perfect reef they didn’t have 8 ppm api free ammonia.

non seneye readers always dig in heels with certainty. They tell us how bacteria work, that their system doesn’t follow book rules.

Not one seneye has ever shows ammonia holding in the tenths not ever. Yet that’s routine here.

It doesn’t occur, your cycle isn’t stuck. I’m out though for sure on this tank... am fully aware people will not accept challenge to non seneye stuck cycle posts, it’s easier to keep peace this way, accept the cycle is stuck and re purchase more bottle bac.

I wasn’t having you add fish into a system that would burn them.


as this thread unfolds against a growing availability of seneye cycle logs, the truth will reveal regarding what bacteria do. Reef convention start dates will always be the unicorn in the forest for forum cyclers. Convention cyclers will lead, we will follow with massive variation, and we will pay them for products to streamline that understood variation.


whoever built this market for cycling doubt is a genius but it’s ill-gotten gains in my opinion. Once we all see that cycles can’t stall I hope you’re angry at people who tried to sell you stuck cycle fixes in a bottle. I wish baseball umpires had to wear those distortion goggles when making home plate calls, tension in the crowd would be awesome to watch, better than the game

Are you suggesting that I can dump a bottle of ammonia chloride into a 2 week old tank and I will not see ammonia show up on a seneye and any fish in that system won't be harmed? Because that is what you are suggesting.
My recommendation is not based on a single test. It is based on over 2 weeks of daily testing and a known recent bulk ammonia add.

 

[Zionas]

My LFS does the cycling for their customers’ tanks, they cycle for about 3 weeks. This means I’ll be starting my tank with cycled live rock so it should be ready for some livestock at the very start. PJ Cardinals and Clowns go in first.

My plan for initial organisms are a trio of small PJ Cardinals (2-3cm) and a pair of Ocellaris or the Black and White Ocellaris Clownfish. Would five small fish be a tad too many for a completely new tank?

Backup plan is to have a Marine Betta and the Clownfish pair (if a good MB specimen at the right size available at the time my tank is ready), or to have the Cardinals and a Royal Gramma and add the Clownfish as my Second group of additions.

WetWebMedia thinks 5 small fish is just fine for a completely new tank, but I’m still worried about the Bio-pressure exerted on a completely new system.

WWYD in this scenario?

 

[Lewism11]

My LFS does the cycling for their customers’ tanks, they cycle for about 3 weeks. This means I’ll be starting my tank with cycled live rock so it should be ready for some livestock at the very start. PJ Cardinals and Clowns go in first.

My plan for initial organisms are a trio of small PJ Cardinals (2-3cm) and a pair of Ocellaris or the Black and White Ocellaris Clownfish. Would five small fish be a tad too many for a completely new tank?

Backup plan is to have a Marine Betta and the Clownfish pair (if a good MB specimen at the right size available at the time my tank is ready), or to have the Cardinals and a Royal Gramma and add the Clownfish as my Second group of additions.

WetWebMedia thinks 5 small fish is just fine for a completely new tank, but I’m still worried about the Bio-pressure exerted on a completely new system.

WWYD in this scenario?

Firstly, I wouldn't recommend adding anything IMMEDIATELY. Even if you are using cycled live rock you will most likely still experience some die-off during the exchange to your tank.
Second, what size tank are you setting up? I would say 5 fish in a brand new tank is going to add a huge bio load. Adding to that I'm not sure how your LFS is cycling the rock, is it coming from an established aquarium?

 

[canadianeh]

That probably isn't helping but these bacteria are very resilient. Keep in mind that the method you have chosen to perform your cycle is much more challenging for the bacteria to process than what would have happened had you just added fish and lightly fed them. Odds are good that the bottled bacteria would have handled that. The path you are going gives you reassurance that the system is ready and also gives you a much larger margin for error should you accidentally dump too much food or if a fish dies and isn't immediately removed.


I'm not one to say that a large water change is needed at the end of a cycle. I would wait until your ammonia stabilizes and nitrite is 0 and then see what your nitrate is. Then determine if a water change is necessary.

Day 14
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 2
Nitrates 100
Added 1.5 ppm ammonia

Day 15
Ammonia 1.5
Nitrite 1
Nitrates 50

Day 16
Ammonia 1.5
Nitrite 2
Nitrates 100

Day 17
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 2
Nitrate 100

Day 18
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 2
Nitrate 100
Added ammonia

Day 19
Ammonia 1.5
Nitrite 2
Nitrate 100

Day 20
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 2
Nitrate 100

Day 21
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate 100

Day 22
Ammonia <0.15
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate 100

It looks like my ammonia and Nitrite is trending down. Nitrate is not trending down and although Salifert only gives result up to 100 ppm the colour is getting darker meaning it is over 100 ppm now.

It looks like I must do WC, yes? If yes, when and how much?

The clownfish are still in QT for observation only for another 11 days. So I am thinking to dose more ammonia just to test again. Should I?

 

[Zionas]

Thanks for the reply. My tank’s 180 gallons, and my LFS has a tank that they use specifically for cultivating live rock. What should I do in this case?

So I thought I’d get the Pajama Cardinals in first, that’s 3 fish. Would 3 be too many to start with?

 

[brandon429]

choose fish entry based on your disease control choices. The bioloading will not be affected, it’s not true that waiting longer gives those rocks more bacteria, they’re about to transfer over with a complete full set of bacteria with no room to add more. Able to carry all fish now it will ever carry. They’re about to sell you skip cycle rock, which is the only kind I’ll use. Waiting for dry rocks is too slow


just as marine conventions have no trouble avoiding cycles, or mini cycles, neither will you. all data in reefing regarding live rock transfer mini cycles is api data and .25 reads from other non digital readers. We know reef tanks never keep .25 or any free ammonia as a reading above thousandths ppm, unless it’s a non seneye test kit.



Add fish based on your disease protocol

that question is for the fish disease forum actually... which order to add fish without fallow protocols in place. It’s not true that bacteria on rocks build up to a fish bioload. In our sand rinse thread where we remove whole sandbeds all at once, rocks take on much more bioload, and don’t stray from the ppb conversion levels which were in place before the sand was removed both per seneye and mindstream linked in the thread.


that specifically means bacteria don’t build up or down on rocks based on fish presence. They build up during a cycle, and maintain levels to convert ammonia as long as you just keep things wet.
bacteria don’t depend on our offerings if nature isn’t sealed away from them...they feed even if we offer none.

if you are determined to prove they’re live/ able rocks, hit em with a little zap of ammonia before fish, they’ll move it down over nite.

 

[Zionas]

Sounds great. Any brand of ammonia you recommend should I decide to dose a bit to prove they’re indeed live rock?

 

[brandon429]

sure that Dr Tim's cycling ammonia is just fine, eight bucks off amazon

*key tuner's approach.

so you can see the problems with api ammonia, the classic .25 issues. its a decent kit even still. to use it in a way that doesnt mislead, simply look for reducing ammonia it doesnt have to go to claimed API zero. thats the trick

if your test ammonia moves down overnite, then thats proof of the activity you want to measure. no zero required. if it goes from a slight green to mostly yellow but not 100% yellow, that motion means its still a set of cycled rocks or whatever surface area is to be measured.

 

[Zionas]

Thanks!

 

[QuarantineReefer]

So I am currently trying to cycle my tank by dosing ammonia. I dosed to 2 ppm on the 12th and my ammonia as of tonight seems to be zero. However my Nitrites are still high. I just want to make sure I am reading the initial post correctly. Do I redose to 2 ppm ammonia now or do I need to wait for my Nitrites to go down first?

 

[Brew12]

So I am currently trying to cycle my tank by dosing ammonia. I dosed to 2 ppm on the 12th and my ammonia as of tonight seems to be zero. However my Nitrites are still high. I just want to make sure I am reading the initial post correctly. Do I redose to 2 ppm ammonia now or do I need to wait for my Nitrites to go down first?

I would wait for the nitrite to drop. More ammonia will just cause nitrite to take longer to drop imo.

It looks like I must do WC, yes? If yes, when and how much?

I think it would be good to do a large water change, but until your nitrite drops to 0ppm it is hard to say. I would probably try to do around 30%.

The clownfish are still in QT for observation only for another 11 days. So I am thinking to dose more ammonia just to test again. Should I?

Unless you want to do another large water change, I would just let the tank sit. I wouldn't bother with much more testing or add any more ammonia.

 

[QuarantineReefer]

I would wait for the nitrite to drop. More ammonia will just cause nitrite to take longer to drop imo.

Thank you! I'll keep an eye on the Nitrite and just wait it out. Appreciate the help!

 

[canadianeh]

I would wait for the nitrite to drop. More ammonia will just cause nitrite to take longer to drop imo.


I think it would be good to do a large water change, but until your nitrite drops to 0ppm it is hard to say. I would probably try to do around 30%.


Unless you want to do another large water change, I would just let the tank sit. I wouldn't bother with much more testing or add any more ammonia.

ok. I will let is sit. Mine is taking almost one month. Many people claimed that theirs cycled in 2 weeks. Why the big discrepancy?

Also, I am planning to get chaeto in refugium and apex pods immediately while the tank sits so that they can consume the nitrate too. Is this okay?

 

[Brew12]

ok. I will let is sit. Mine is taking almost one month. Many people claimed that theirs cycled in 2 weeks. Why the big discrepancy?

Also, I am planning to get chaeto in refugium and apex pods immediately while the tank sits so that they can consume the nitrate too. Is this okay?

There is no definition of when a tank has cycled. I could dump a bottle of Bio Spira into a new system, add fish, and call it cycled. Odds are it would be just fine.
There are so many ways to cycle a tank, and so many testing issues, that it is very hard to compare one cycle to another.

 

[canadianeh]

There is no definition of when a tank has cycled. I could dump a bottle of Bio Spira into a new system, add fish, and call it cycled. Odds are it would be just fine.
There are so many ways to cycle a tank, and so many testing issues, that it is very hard to compare one cycle to another.

I see. Thanks for the insight.

I am planning to get chaeto in refugium and apex pods immediately while the tank sits so that they can consume the nitrate too. Is this okay?

 

[Brew12]

I see. Thanks for the insight.

I am planning to get chaeto in refugium and apex pods immediately while the tank sits so that they can consume the nitrate too. Is this okay?

Absolutely.

 

[canadianeh]

Absolutely.

So I noticed today that the nitrite went up even though the ammonia has been sitting on the same value <0.15. Why is that?
Day 22
Ammonia <0.15
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate 100

Day 23
Ammonia <0.15
Nitrite 1

Day 24
Ammonia <0.15

Day 25
No test

Day 26
Ammonia <0.15
Nitrite 2
Nitrate 100