Devils advocating

[ShaunRobinson]

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is proximity of the QT and the display? It is possible for airbourne cross contamination between tanks. Not saying this was the issue, I’m just trying to eliminate possibilities.

Shaun.

 

[Lasse]

If I understand correctly , fish gong into sterile tank, no other life forms have been in it with copper in it, would not have any ich. Add fish to it, with copper, the inky thing the fish could bring are free swimmers when they fall off which woud be zapped.

If I understand correctly , fish gong into sterile tank, no other life forms have been in it with copper in it, would not have any ich. Add fish to it, with copper, the inky thing the fish could bring are free swimmers when they fall off which woud be zapped.

IMO - If this is true - there is no chance that the fishes can have been reinfected with the ich if all “the common trues” really is true. There is not a single chance that there can have been “dormant” parasites in either of the tanks. And even if some parasites had cyst – if they should have hatch – they should had been forced to swim through cooper water in order to reinfect the fish again.

IMO – there is only two possible explanation to this – either does not the OP tell us the truth or we have to rethink and do new valuation of what we know about Ich and its behaviour.

All of my experiences with both fresh water ich and saltwater ich indicate that there can be stages in the parasite cycle that we not are aware of. That they can stay dormant in the fish without us notice them (no white spots) longer than 7 days is for me a clear possibility – especially in the freshwater version of ich but even in saltwater fish – I have seen when fish without any visible signs of ich in the original tank have direct developed ich after a move – and the rest of the fish in the parent tank do not show any signs of ich infection. Neither the fishes in the receiving tank have shown any signs (if there have been fish) The move can have been done to both old and newly started tanks (QT tanks included)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HotRocks]

IMO – there is only two possible explanation to this – either does not the OP tell us the truth or we have to rethink and do new valuation of what we know about Ich and its behaviour.

This^ The ich life cycle is pretty well understood. I am so confused now. The OP originally stated LFS advised him against using copper or told them it wouldn't work. Yet the LFS water tested at 2.7ppm. So why would they use copper in their systems (at a level near toxicity) if they advise against it or say it won't work and you can't get rid of ich.

The OP originally stated that fish were left in copper for 14 days, few posts later they were transferred after 60 hours.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

This^ The ich life cycle is pretty well understood. I am so confused now. The OP originally stated LFS advised him against using copper or told them it wouldn't work. Yet the LFS water tested at 2.7ppm. So why would they use copper in their systems (at a level near toxicity) if they advise against it or say it won't work and you can't get rid of ich.

The OP originally stated that fish were left in copper for 14 days, few posts later they were transferred after 60 hours.

I had to re-read this entire thread again because it’s confusing. He said they went through two TTM about 60 hours each with copper, I suspect that’s where the problem lies.

 

[HotRocks]

If I understand correctly , fish gong into sterile tank, no other life forms have been in it with copper in it, would not have any ich. Add fish to it, with copper, the inky thing the fish could bring are free swimmers when they fall off which woud be zapped.

No, that's not how it works.

Free swimmers don't fall off fish. Free swimmers are what attack the fish. The stage attached to the fish is a trophont.

This may better help you understand the life cycle of ich:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

 

[Lasse]

No, that's not how it works.

Free swimmers don't fall off fish. Free swimmers are what attack the fish. The stage attached to the fish is a trophont.

This may better help you understand the life cycle of ich:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

But still if the ich was comming from the gravel and reinfect the fish - they have to travel in cooper treated water when they travel freeswiming up to the fish if we should relay on what the OP post.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

This^ The ich life cycle is pretty well understood.

Is it? How does vacination of ich works? How should I understand the ^?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ReefHog]

You are correct in the fact that trophonts for ich only stay attached to the fish for up to 7 days, velvet is even less around 48 hours. The way it works is those trophonts fall off the fish into reproduction. Then they become tomonts and encyst to anything hard in the tank, glass, PVC, algae clip etc. Then those release free swimmers that seek a fish to host and start the process all over again.

So the fish "should" be clean after 7 days of therapuetic copper. However there are still active parasites in the different stages within the tank because copper only kills the final free swimming stage. So it basically creates a shield to prevent the fish from being reinfected.

So you have clean fish, but you certainly to not have a clean tank, if that makes sense.

I would never go less than 10 days of therapuetic copper to be safe, the best practice with additional insurance is 14 days. Even at the 14 day mark you have to carefully transfer the fish because if you get ahold of a tomont, while it's unlikely it will be problematic.

I've been trying to wrap my head around this regarding the 14 day copper/CP treatment then to sterile tank. I would think most people scrape the net or colander on the tank walls, bottom, pvc etc, when catching the fish. Wouldn't tomonts that are still attached to the hard surfaces be transferred to the sterile tank via the net? Am I not fully understanding this?

 

[MnFish1]

The only way to guarantee this doesn't happen is to quarantine fish @ full copper/hypo/etc for 76 (72?) days. Anything short of this, and we assume some risk. This is likely the specific scenario that caused hotrocks to recommend transferring to a sterile untreated QT for observation before adding to the display.

How would there be a risk? 76 days is the time used to leave a tank fallow without fish. Treatment for CI with copper should not take 76 days. If you ramp up copper treatment for 2-3 days as recommended - then treat the fish for 10 days (to allow all of the CI to drop off the fish (usually takes 3-7 days) - and then remove them to a sterile tank - how could there be any CI left in the system to infect the fish?

I've read that Hyposalinity is much less effective than copper or chloroquine.

 

[MnFish1]

BTW - I didn't see this mentioned before - I was under the impression that copper should be ramped up slowly over a couple days - rather than just adding the fish to a full dose (and especially a higher than usual dose).

Secondly - it says @Wildreefs had the fish in copper in tank 1 for 60 hours (3 days) - then put into another tank with copper. (I assume for 11 days - for a total of 14 days) - what was the purpose of this? (the reason some people might be confused - is that in your OP you said you put fish in copper for 2 'weekends'.

Finally - what is the evidence that Cryptokaryon (ich) killed your fish as compared to another cause - I still dont understand.

 

[Wildreefs]

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is proximity of the QT and the display? It is possible for airbourne cross contamination between tanks. Not saying this was the issue, I’m just trying to eliminate possibilities.

Shaun.

Exactly 18 feet from edge of display to the closest possible point of quarantine area.

 

[HotRocks]

I've been trying to wrap my head around this regarding the 14 day copper/CP treatment then to sterile tank. I would think most people scrape the net or colander on the tank walls, bottom, pvc etc, when catching the fish. Wouldn't tomonts that are still attached to the hard surfaces be transferred to the sterile tank via the net? Am I not fully understanding this?

At one time there was a paper out there that showed some tomont damage with copper present.

You are exactly correct with the possibility of getting an encysted tomont with a net when removing the fish.

I use two buckets when I move fish from copper to a sterile tank. The first bucket is dosed with copper. So fish are netted from copper QT to copper bucket. Then I transfer them to a clean bucket with newly mixed water by hand. Then finally use a clean net to move them from the clean bucket to the sterile tank.

 

[Wildreefs]

BTW - I didn't see this mentioned before - I was under the impression that copper should be ramped up slowly over a couple days - rather than just adding the fish to a full dose (and especially a higher than usual dose).

Secondly - it says @Wildreefs had the fish in copper in tank 1 for 60 hours (3 days) - then put into another tank with copper. (I assume for 11 days - for a total of 14 days) - what was the purpose of this? (the reason some people might be confused - is that in your OP you said you put fish in copper for 2 'weekends'.

Finally - what is the evidence that Cryptokaryon (ich) killed your fish as compared to another cause - I still dont understand.

To your first statement, i tester the copper
Fish came from at lfs, which was 2.7 (very high) I made mine 2.25, far lower than theirs. When lfs bring fish in, they acclimate to the higher copper level, no ramp up.

Secondly, it was 2 weeks, not weekends in coppper, typing on my phone didn’t catch that mistake .

 

[MnFish1]

I've been trying to wrap my head around this regarding the 14 day copper/CP treatment then to sterile tank. I would think most people scrape the net or colander on the tank walls, bottom, pvc etc, when catching the fish. Wouldn't tomonts that are still attached to the hard surfaces be transferred to the sterile tank via the net? Am I not fully understanding this?

I think this would be extremely unlikely. The number of 'cysts' is equal to the number of CI that were originally on the fish. If you scraped a cyst - it would likely 'break open' and the tomites would be killed by copper nearly immediately. I'm also not sure how easy it is to 'scrape' a cyst off of a surface in the first place. Lets say you do happen to get a cyst on a net - I wouldn't use the net from the QT tank to move the fish into the 'sterile' tank.

 

[MnFish1]

I had to re-read this entire thread again because it’s confusing. He said they went through two TTM about 60 hours each with copper, I suspect that’s where the problem lies.

Actually - he didn't say that either - he said the first 'copper tank 1' was 60 hours. then they were put into tank 2. He didnt specify in that post how long they were in tank 2 - but he said they were the tanks a total of 14 days - so I assume that they were in tank 2 for 11 days. (I THINK LOL - but maybe he put them back in tank 1 again after 60 hours)

I kind of disagree with @Wildreefs that one doesn't need to worry about ammonia because it was only 60 hours - depending on the size of the tank and the number/kind of fish ammonia is certainly a possible problem.

 

[HotRocks]

If you ramp up copper treatment for 2-3 days as recommended - then treat the fish for 10 days (to allow all of the CI to drop off the fish (usually takes 3-7 days) - and then remove them to a sterile tank - how could there be any CI left in the system to infect the fish?

There wouldn't be any free swimmers there to infect the fish, but viable tomonts could remain (that are releasing free swimmers, which explode instantly upon release in therapuetic copper) that can be grabbed with a net and possibly transferred to the "sterile" tank to reinfect the fish.

Again, this isn't a super high likely hood, but is technically a possibility.

 

[MnFish1]

To your first statement, i tester the copper
Fish came from at lfs, which was 2.7 (very high) I made mine 2.25, far lower than theirs. When lfs bring fish in, they acclimate to the higher copper level, no ramp up.

Secondly, it was 2 weeks, not weekends in coppper, typing on my phone didn’t catch that mistake .

Why do you think CI killed your fish - as compared to ammonia (which can be a problem even in 60 hours) especially in the presence of copper - or the copper itself. If the LFS copper level was really '2.7' - why did they do that? Also did you check your copper levels twice daily to document they remained stable? Not trying to disagree with you - just clarify and hopefully get an answer.

 

[MnFish1]

There wouldn't be any free swimmers there to infect the fish, but viable tomonts could remain (that are releasing free swimmers, which explode instantly upon release in therapuetic copper) that can be grabbed with a net and possibly transferred to the "sterile" tank to reinfect the fish.

Again, this isn't a super high likely hood, but is technically a possibility.

yes - I didnt see your other post - tormonts are the cysts (if I'm not mistaken - frankly I hate the terminology I always get them confused). My point was that if a cyst was 'scraped' off of something - my guess is that it would break - thus releasing the tomites which are also killed immediately with copper - and if not mature wouldn't not be infective (as infective) anyway?? But I agree with your method where you go from QT to bucket, etc.

 

[Wildreefs]

Actually - he didn't say that either - he said the first 'copper tank 1' was 60 hours. then they were put into tank 2. He didnt specify in that post how long they were in tank 2 - but he said they were the tanks a total of 14 days - so I assume that they were in tank 2 for 11 days. (I THINK LOL - but maybe he put them back in tank 1 again after 60 hours)

I kind of disagree with @Wildreefs that one doesn't need to worry about ammonia because it was only 60 hours - depending on the size of the tank and the number/kind of fish ammonia is certainly a possible problem.

Well then the crowd that uses ttm, which is 72 hours in one tank, should certainly be worried.

As to why the lfs has copper that high...I’m assuming he himself doesn’t test water like I did for him , added in recommended amount, guesses as to how many replacement gallons he needs from sales, and resides, and overtime it got higher and higher.

 

[drstardust]

Well, based on the information currently available, here are the possibilities I see.

1. A tomont was scraped up and transferred to the DT.
2. Ich is not what you were dealing with. Flukes can look similar to ich, and even if treated for with prazi, they can be resistant, unfortunately.
3. At some point during the process cross contamination occurred.

And, less likely:
4. A copper resistant strain of ich has developed and you had the misfortune of encountering it.