Devils advocating

[MnFish1]

Just being constructive here, but I have run the test a dozen or so times in buckets of saltwater, mixed up per hotricksndosage guide just to confirm the numbers in paper match up with the test. Have yet to find any discrepancies. For example, if I mix up 5 gallons and out enough in there on paper to get it to 1.5, the test showed 1.48-1.53 .

Ran this test twice on lfs holding tank, and that is what I got . Instantly turned the reagent a dark color, before hitting the test chamber for Hannah.

As for you finding it unlikely to be that high... have you owned an lfs or any type of facility where fish are constantly being sold?

When they have to top off the water sold, vs evaporations, any given day they can evaporate 3-4 gallons, and sell 20-30 gallons based on how many bags of fish sold.

Without measuring, they could very easily replace 30 gallons worth of copper, when it only really needed 20 gallons worth. Do this 6 days week, and I think it’s fair to say the level can rise or sink fast.

The question is did you document your levels at least once a day during the 14 days?

 

[MnFish1]

The question is did you document your levels at least once a day during the 14 days?

If not the likelihood is that your levels are incorrect. Btw. I would also ask your lfs what their copper tests at. It’s u heard of for an lfs to dose that high for a long period of time. It’s damaging to the immune system etc. this might be part of your problem

 

[naterealbig]

How would there be a risk? 76 days is the time used to leave a tank fallow without fish. Treatment for CI with copper should not take 76 days. If you ramp up copper treatment for 2-3 days as recommended - then treat the fish for 10 days (to allow all of the CI to drop off the fish (usually takes 3-7 days) - and then remove them to a sterile tank - how could there be any CI left in the system to infect the fish?

I've read that Hyposalinity is much less effective than copper or chloroquine.

Your logic only works if the fish is introduced into quarantine at therapeutic copper levels. Yes, the incubation period for the Trophont is 3-7 days, but if the Trophont falls off the fish the day you add them to QT (assuming it's not at therapeutic copper level) then the Trophont survives the swim from fish to substrate. It does not wait around for you to get to therapeutic Copper levels, lol. It is now a Tomont/ Tomites - which are unaffected by copper, and can take 72 days to hatch. Get a Tomont in your net or on your hands, and transfer it to the display, then your display has Ich.

The hyposalinity method is not less effective - it's just harder for people to do correctly.

 

[naterealbig]

I think this would be extremely unlikely. The number of 'cysts' is equal to the number of CI that were originally on the fish. If you scraped a cyst - it would likely 'break open' and the tomites would be killed by copper nearly immediately. I'm also not sure how easy it is to 'scrape' a cyst off of a surface in the first place. Lets say you do happen to get a cyst on a net - I wouldn't use the net from the QT tank to move the fish into the 'sterile' tank.

Yes, unlikely, but there is still a risk.

 

[sde1500]

Just being constructive here, but I have run the test a dozen or so times in buckets of saltwater, mixed up per hotricksndosage guide just to confirm the numbers in paper match up with the test. Have yet to find any discrepancies. For example, if I mix up 5 gallons and out enough in there on paper to get it to 1.5, the test showed 1.48-1.53 .

Ran this test twice on lfs holding tank, and that is what I got . Instantly turned the reagent a dark color, before hitting the test chamber for Hannah.

As for you finding it unlikely to be that high... have you owned an lfs or any type of facility where fish are constantly being sold?

When they have to top off the water sold, vs evaporations, any given day they can evaporate 3-4 gallons, and sell 20-30 gallons based on how many bags of fish sold.

Without measuring, they could very easily replace 30 gallons worth of copper, when it only really needed 20 gallons worth. Do this 6 days week, and I think it’s fair to say the level can rise or sink fast.

No need to take offense. Mistakes happen. Now I don’t own an LFS but I have tested things wrong, many times. We all have I’m sure. Of course there are more possibilities, but between you making a mistake in the testing procedures and the LFS running a near lethal dose of copper on their livestock I’d wager an incorrect test. I’d definitely double check with them. The reagent could be bad, or just something was messed up when testing. I’m far from the only person that was surprised at the levels not only on the LFS tanks, but yours. We’re all just brainstorming here.

 

[Lasse]

This^ The ich life cycle is pretty well understood. I am so confused now. The OP originally stated LFS advised him against using copper or told them it wouldn't work. Yet the LFS water tested at 2.7ppm. So why would they use copper in their systems (at a level near toxicity) if they advise against it or say it won't work and you can't get rid of ich.

The OP originally stated that fish were left in copper for 14 days, few posts later they were transferred after 60 hours.

Is it? How does vacination of ich works? How should I understand the ^?

Sincerely Lasse

@HotRocks Not get any answer on this. Would love to get that

What I have understand from the OP - he get the fish from a water with therapeutic levels of copper. Put it in a tank with therapeutic levels of copper for 3 days. Did a TT to new tank tank with therapeutic levels of copper for 3 days – an new TT to a new cleaned tank with therapeutic levels of copper and so one for total 14 days. When he put them in a DT cleaned with Chlorine. They developed ich in the DT. Lets do the math. It could have come some tomites from the fish an formed a tomont. However the fish was moved after three days – no chance to reinfection from that tank (and also copper in the tank). Tank two - day 4-6 – yes can have been new tomonts in that tank – but fish moved after 3 days – no chance for reinfection. Tank three – (day 7-9) yes even in this tank could it be some tomonts but fish moved after three days. Tank 4 – according to the “wellknown” life history of the parasites there could not have been more tomonts. Let us say that a tomont comes with the net and hact in tank 4 – still therapeutic levels of cooper that should kill the free-swimming parasite. If I have understand the OP in the right way – please @Wildreefs correct me if I´m wrong

IMO - there must be for us unknown pathways for the parasite to survive longer than 7 days in the fish (as trophonts) even in our aquarias

There is reports that temperature stress (12 degree C) can get the parasite to remain in the fish for 4 – 5 months and when transferred to 27 degree C develop further and infect new fishes. Do we really know that other types of stress or antibodies not can´t slow down the development during the trophont stage? My experiences strongly support that this is possible.

All sources does not support the theory that the parasite can´t be killed during the transfer from trophont into a tomont.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

@Wildreefs Have really your LFS therapeutic levels of copper in their tanks all the time?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Your logic only works if the fish is introduced into quarantine at therapeutic copper levels. Yes, the incubation period for the Trophont is 3-7 days, but if the Trophont falls off the fish the day you add them to QT (assuming it's not at therapeutic copper level) then the Trophont survives the swim from fish to substrate. It does not wait around for you to get to therapeutic Copper levels, lol. It is now a Tomont/ Tomites - which are unaffected by copper, and can take 72 days to hatch. Get a Tomont in your net or on your hands, and transfer it to the display, then your display has Ich.

The hyposalinity method is not less effective - it's just harder for people to do correctly.

No. That’s not correct. Once the tomites turn into Theron’s they are immediately killed by the copper. So all you need to do is have the fish exposed to copper long enough to have the ci fall off of the fish. It doesn’t matter if they encrust in the tank with copper because like I said when they hatch they are killed immediately. The only time you need to wait 76 days is a fallow tank situation.

 

[MnFish1]

@HotRocks Not get any answer on this. Would love to get that

What I have understand from the OP - he get the fish from a water with therapeutic levels of copper. Put it in a tank with therapeutic levels of copper for 3 days. Did a TT to new tank tank with therapeutic levels of copper for 3 days – an new TT to a new cleaned tank with therapeutic levels of copper and so one for total 14 days. When he put them in a DT cleaned with Chlorine. They developed ich in the DT. Lets do the math. It could have come some tomites from the fish an formed a tomont. However the fish was moved after three days – no chance to reinfection from that tank (and also copper in the tank). Tank two - day 4-6 – yes can have been new tomonts in that tank – but fish moved after 3 days – no chance for reinfection. Tank three – (day 7-9) yes even in this tank could it be some tomonts but fish moved after three days. Tank 4 – according to the “wellknown” life history of the parasites there could not have been more tomonts. Let us say that a tomont comes with the net and hact in tank 4 – still therapeutic levels of cooper that should kill the free-swimming parasite. If I have understand the OP in the right way – please @Wildreefs correct me if I´m wrong

IMO - there must be for us unknown pathways for the parasite to survive longer than 7 days in the fish (as trophonts) even in our aquarias

There is reports that temperature stress (12 degree C) can get the parasite to remain in the fish for 4 – 5 months and when transferred to 27 degree C develop further and infect new fishes. Do we really know that other types of stress or antibodies not can´t slow down the development during the trophont stage? My experiences strongly support that this is possible.

All sources does not support the theory that the parasite can´t be killed during the transfer from trophont into a tomont.

Sincerely Lasse

This is true but @Lasse there is no evidence that this is temperature ‘stress’. I assume it’s that the life cycle is slowed due to the lower temp. Because in the studies I’ve seen once the temp rises the life cycle goes back to normal.

We also don’t have an answer as to whether he monitored copper levels multiple times during quarantine so there is no way to know whether it was therapeutic the whole time.

Btw o Jane also heard that during the time between when the ci falls off the fish and the time it encuats it can also be killed if not significantly damaged by copper. As you say

 

[MnFish1]

Yes, unlikely, but there is still a risk.

Yep that’s why I said I would never expose anything used in the qt tank to the dt. Much like hoteoxla suggested

 

[HotRocks]

No. That’s not correct. Once the tomites turn into Theron’s they are immediately killed by the copper. So all you need to do is have the fish exposed to copper long enough to have the ci fall off of the fish. It doesn’t matter if they encrust in the tank with copper because like I said when they hatch they are killed immediately. The only time you need to wait 76 days is a fallow tank situation.

You are both saying the same thing.

Correct in the fact that the fish doesn't need to be in the copper dosed tank for 76 days (So long as copper remains therapeutic and never falls below the minimum). The fish should be clean after 7 days. However encysted tomonts releasing free swimmers can be transferred if you aren't careful upon removing the fish.

Now IMO it is a gray area, because I have treated several fish in copper for a 30 day duration (Prior to switching to a 2 tank method only treating for 10-14 days with a transfer) leaving the fish in the same tank and reducing the copper level via WC. Never to be re-infected with ich or velvet. There is some evidence out there that tomonts exposed to copper for extended periods of time may become damaged. Which is likely why the 30 day treatment is successful.

Also the 76 day fallow period is pretty overcautious (I do fallow for 76 days because I am not a risk taker when it comes to all of this). 99% of the things that we go fallow for are gone in 45 days, there is a super rare strain of ich that can be viable for a length of time outside of everything else which is why the recommend time frame is 76 days.

 

[ReefHog]

I’m new to velvet and have learned quit a bit in the last week and a half on this board. One thing I’m trying to understand is if the trophonts fall off in 4 days and any dinospores are killed instantly in the proper medication (CP or copper at therapeutic) why is the medication time 10-14 days for velvet? Wouldn’t the fish be ok to remove in 5 days and placed into sterile quarantine to be observed for 30 days?

 

[HotRocks]

I’m new to velvet and have learned quit a bit in the last week and a half on this board. One thing I’m trying to understand is if the trophonts fall off in 4 days and any dinospores are killed instantly in the proper medication (CP or copper at therapeutic) why is the medication time 10-14 days for velvet? Wouldn’t the fish be ok to remove in 5 days and placed into sterile quarantine to be observed for 30 days?

In theory the answer to your question is yes.

If accompanied by ich then no it wouldn't be long enough. 10 days is the minimal time I'd keep fish therapeutic before removing them from copper or CP. It's just insurance.

 

[HotRocks]

@HotRocks Not get any answer on this. Would love to get that

I'm sorry @Lasse I didn't understand what your original question was?

 

[ReefHog]

In theory the answer to your question is yes.

If accompanied by ich then no it wouldn't be long enough. 10 days is the minimal time I'd keep fish therapeutic before removing them from copper or CP. It's just insurance.

Got it. Thanks

 

[Lasse]

This is true but @Lasse there is no evidence that this is temperature ‘stress’. I assume it’s that the life cycle is slowed due to the lower temp

It was only one known example. If there is one exception - it could be more. Especially with very old organisms like these parasites. I have seen too many examples that not is in line with the normal description of the life cycle seen in the hobby.

Another example is one of the very holy assumption that you need a 72 days fall out to be safe. This assumption (as I know) is based on one investigation and done in temperatures below 20 degree C. IMO it is a very weak figure.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[drstardust]

It was only one known example. If there is one exception - it could be more. Especially with very old organisms like these parasites. I have seen too many examples that not is in line with the normal description of the life cycle seen in the hobby.

Another example is one of the very holy assumption that you need a 72 days fall out to be safe. This assumption (as I know) is based on one investigation and done in temperatures below 20 degree C. IMO it is a very weak figure.

Sincerely Lasse

I’ll agree with that, Lasse. There are likely still unknowns, and more research is needed.

 

[Wildreefs]

When you top off tanks it wouldn’t raise the copper levels

For evaporation you are right, but for water that goes by way of fish sales, day every fish is a half gallon, Times 20 fish sales, would be ten gallons that need to be replaced with copper

 

[Wildreefs]

Again, evaporation doesn’t effect level. Fish sales and water changes would need copper in replacement water.unless you measure how much water in a day went out via fish bag or water change, it’s a guess as to how much to put in

 

[Wildreefs]

The question is did you document your levels at least once a day during the 14 days?

Just the start of the the new tank in ttm. So every 3 days or so. There is nothing in tank that would absorb any.

Plus with the added ttm for ammonia, which that mechanism in and of itself should eradicate ich as well