Devils advocating

[Wildreefs]

If not the likelihood is that your levels are incorrect. Btw. I would also ask your lfs what their copper tests at. It’s u heard of for an lfs to dose that high for a long period of time. It’s damaging to the immune system etc. this might be part of your problem

Doesn’t test, just doses. Has been that way since he started in 2007. Considered the best in state, as put out other lfs in sheer quality.

I tested it for him, how we found out it was high

 

[Wildreefs]

Your logic only works if the fish is introduced into quarantine at therapeutic copper levels. Yes, the incubation period for the Trophont is 3-7 days, but if the Trophont falls off the fish the day you add them to QT (assuming it's not at therapeutic copper level) then the Trophont survives the swim from fish to substrate. It does not wait around for you to get to therapeutic Copper levels, lol. It is now a Tomont/ Tomites - which are unaffected by copper, and can take 72 days to hatch. Get a Tomont in your net or on your hands, and transfer it to the display, then your display has Ich.

The hyposalinity method is not less effective - it's just harder for people to do correctly.

Exactly . Tank was nine dry, disenfected before use. Added new saltwater, then cooper at High level, before the fish made it out of the bag and into the tank

 

[Wildreefs]

@Wildreefs Have really your LFS therapeutic levels of copper in their tanks all the time?

Sincerely Lasse

Yes sir, run some it all the time. Now not sure if it is always that high, since he doesn’t test, I did for him, but he is always residing, so it may not be 2.7, but at least 2.0 I would say.

 

[Wildreefs]

I’ll agree with that, Lasse. There are likely still unknowns, and more research is needed.

That is my point. The information out there speaks in specifics,

By me putting out my issue for people to here I’ve heard every possibility. Copper too high, not high enough, not enough bleach to disenfect, too much bleach and I probably ruined my seals etc.

Where do I go from there ? If I read and believe everything , I’ll take apart tank, let it go fallow for 76 days (knowing me I’d go 100 to play it safe) or bleach every thing and restart.

I’ve done that, and still ended up where I am now again.

I’ve lost one fish as of now, a swissgaurd basslet who was covered in ich ((velvet looks similar I know, but pretty sure it’s ich)

Others seem ok for now, eating still. Should it return, I will add copper to 1.0, few days later ramp it up to 1.25 then finally 1.75 and monitor everyday for absorption . Might even go 2.0, this way if some does absorb, it still has some safety to drop to 1.7 etc

 

[drstardust]

Sounds good, keep us posted on the progress

 

[naterealbig]

No. That’s not correct. Once the tomites turn into Theron’s they are immediately killed by the copper. So all you need to do is have the fish exposed to copper long enough to have the ci fall off of the fish. It doesn’t matter if they encrust in the tank with copper because like I said when they hatch they are killed immediately. The only time you need to wait 76 days is a fallow tank situation.

I'm sorry you're missing my point (and a step in the lifecycle). In your argument above, you are assuming (dangerously) here, and in previous posts that a Tomont can't be scooped into/onto a net/hand and transferred into the display tank. And, no one needs to do anything. It's all about the risk you are willing to assume. Let me know if you need further clarification.

 

[srad750c]

trying to be constructive , something is not adding up. Assuming the parasite information abroad is correct, there are entirely too many mishaps for this to be a science or exact process.

Restarted my tank, bleached down, excessive amount of bleach, air dryer, and recycled.

The few fish I have gotten all went thru 2 weekends of copper. Some did not make it thru copper, two just shut down eating altogether. 2.25 coppper power level.

A look at the math: ich can stay on the fish 3-7 days before falling off encycsting to substrate . So 14 days continuos copper, from the moment they were bought (lfs bag into qt), already set at 2.25 copper, would cover the supposed 7 day max they can last on fish.

No chance of absorption, only Pvc hiding and no substrate. Measured with copper Hannah meter. From there into tank, and boom ich. Nothing was added at all to tank,
No inverts, coral, algae, nothing other than the fish which were in copper for 14 days.

All equipment bleached , dryer out for one week. Tank and rock, 50 gallons, 5 gallons of bleach, rinsed, aired out, restarted.

All fish also went thru metroplex, dosed at the recommended dose per 10 gallons, and after all the clowns succumbed to brook.

Giant waste of fish lives, money and especially time. Def not breaking tank down again, not so ich cause of the work, just because what do I do different? Either 1, copper is ineffective, 2 they can stay in fish more than 14 days (experts say 7) or ich is in every tank.

Metro didn’t work, so great there’s formalin. Which happens to be carcinogenic , and apparently cuts the fish lifespan short . So I suppose
I can restart tank again, and use formalin in everyone, knowing it could cut there lives in half, and doesn’t cure ich, not interested.

My trusted lfs predicted these quarantine issues before I bought fish. Believing I was smarter than him, being on a message board and all, I thought otherwise, and boy was I wrong

Use Seachem cupramine, treat 21 days. I FW dip with Quick Cure my fish for 2-5 minutes in ph and temp adjusted water before going to QT tank. I haven’t had ick in at least 30 years in display tanks.

 

[MnFish1]

Just the start of the the new tank in ttm. So every 3 days or so. There is nothing in tank that would absorb any.

Plus with the added ttm for ammonia, which that mechanism in and of itself should eradicate ich as well

So you didn't follow the usual procedure - this it not a ctixicism - but merely - the fact that you didnt

 

[Lasse]

Yes sir, run some it all the time. Now not sure if it is always that high, since he doesn’t test, I did for him, but he is always residing, so it may not be 2.7, but at least 2.0 I would say.

Cooper is a known agent of immunosuppressivity. It is a compound with known abilities for bioaccumulation. It is known for cause gill damage in fish in low, sublethal concentrations – much lower than your ans suspected for more damage than this.

Parasites of different types is known for their large genetical diversion. Although – there is vaccines developed for ich – they are not used in a comersial scale yet (as I know of) What I have understand it is due to a large genetic diversity among the parasite that make the vaccine only effective for one or a couple of strains of the parasite.

In your case. Fish coming from system with high concentration of copper, treated at least 14 days with both TTM and therapeutic levels of copper – transferred to a system that have been disinfected with chlorine but still show infections of ich – I can only see two explanations. Either have the parasite developed a resistance against copper – hence leading to that a few parasites have been able to both infect and reinfect your fishes – when you get a copper free environment – it just explode – or – there is a way for the parasite to stay as a trophont for a prolonged time period if the environmental conditions says so without develope the white spots. – or more likely – a combination of these two things. Because I have seen (many, many times) fish that have been without any signs of infection for long time being moved into a new tank with no sign ever of infection on that´s tanks fish – but a day or two after the transfer developed white spots. Still no sign on the old fish in the new aquarium and no sign on the fish that still have been in the old aquarium. I have seen this often enough (both in freshwater and saltwater) to question the general explanation of the different parasite's life cycles, especially - the stated time on the host before the white dots are visible.

But I suppose that you understand where the general problem has evolved. I would look for a LFS that not use copper in their system as a prophylactic treatment – I think that this is the most problematic step in your supply chain from the tropics to the home aquarium – use of prophylactics in every step – leading to just an explosions of supressed diseases when the fish finally reach a medicine free environment

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Use Seachem cupramine, treat 21 days. I FW dip with Quick Cure my fish for 2-5 minutes in ph and temp adjusted water before going to QT tank. I haven’t had ick in at least 30 years in display tanks.

But you do not know if it had works as well as that if you do not have had the prophylactic treatment - only keep them in observations for 21 days and treated when there was a sign of ich. Only because it works in one way - this says not that it will not work in another way. But if it work for you - just keep on doing it - just be aware that it could be other ways to handle the problem too.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Wildreefs]

So you didn't follow the usual procedure - this it not a ctixicism - but merely - the fact that you didnt

What step am I missing? On day 1, new water , new qt tank, I check level after adding and it’s on point. 3 days later I do so for the new transfer tank.

There is no way in 3 days that copper could go missing. There is nothing in there to remove it, no rock, calcium absent, filter pad , sand etc. just a glass tank, a plastic airline tube and a plastic 200 gph pump.

If anything the copper concentration would rise from evaporating water which I do not replace. In 3 days, I may lose a cup or two of water , if that.

If that truly is a missing step, that defies logic and what is though to be known about copper, and i can live with that.

 

[Wildreefs]

Cooper is a known agent of immunosuppressivity. It is a compound with known abilities for bioaccumulation. It is known for cause gill damage in fish in low, sublethal concentrations – much lower than your ans suspected for more damage than this.

Parasites of different types is known for their large genetical diversion. Although – there is vaccines developed for ich – they are not used in a comersial scale yet (as I know of) What I have understand it is due to a large genetic diversity among the parasite that make the vaccine only effective for one or a couple of strains of the parasite.

In your case. Fish coming from system with high concentration of copper, treated at least 14 days with both TTM and therapeutic levels of copper – transferred to a system that have been disinfected with chlorine but still show infections of ich – I can only see two explanations. Either have the parasite developed a resistance against copper – hence leading to that a few parasites have been able to both infect and reinfect your fishes – when you get a copper free environment – it just explode – or – there is a way for the parasite to stay as a trophont for a prolonged time period if the environmental conditions says so without develope the white spots. – or more likely – a combination of these two things. Because I have seen (many, many times) fish that have been without any signs of infection for long time being moved into a new tank with no sign ever of infection on that´s tanks fish – but a day or two after the transfer developed white spots. Still no sign on the old fish in the new aquarium and no sign on the fish that still have been in the old aquarium. I have seen this often enough (both in freshwater and saltwater) to question the general explanation of the different parasite's life cycles, especially - the stated time on the host before the white dots are visible.

But I suppose that you understand where the general problem has evolved. I would look for a LFS that not use copper in their system as a prophylactic treatment – I think that this is the most problematic step in your supply chain from the tropics to the home aquarium – use of prophylactics in every step – leading to just an explosions of supressed diseases when the fish finally reach a medicine free environment

Sincerely Lasse

I don’t have much to add here other than these two points:

Let’s say they were copper resistant, but from the empirical data on here where one prominent member stated he has had over 350 fish in copper and no ich, I find it unlikely one of my 10 got a resistant strain.

Let’s say they were, well if they follow that reproduction cycle, the ttm in and of itself without chemicals should have also taken care of it.

Lastly, there is one fish store in the area that doesn’t use copper, petco, who isn’t allowed. I wouldn’t buy a fish from there, you can see parasites in almost every system they have.

There isn’t a store other than petco within 80 miles of me that doesn’t use copper. Even ones that state they try not to, in fact does , just try not to advertise it.

My top lfs, one who is highly viewed and brings in rare and sensitive fish, told me he would be out business if he had not. All the big wholesalers use it all the time. Just no getting around it.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm sorry you're missing my point (and a step in the lifecycle). In your argument above, you are assuming (dangerously) here, and in previous posts that a Tomont can't be scooped into/onto a net/hand and transferred into the display tank. And, no one needs to do anything. It's all about the risk you are willing to assume. Let me know if you need further clarification.

I'm sorry as well - you are misunderstanding my point (which was that I disagreed with your statement that to be completely 'sure' you need to QT for 76 days - that's all I disagreed with. - I posted I think before you that it would be very unlikely and then subsequently that I would never put something ( ie net, colander, etc etc) near a display tank when I transferred the fish. I also posted that I agreed with @HotRocks post about how he transfers his fish from QT - to avoid this problem. My only point was that if you do QT properly that you don't need to wait 76 days. Sorry for the misunderstanding

HotRocks, post: 5829165, member: 88738"]I use two buckets when I move fish from copper to a sterile tank. The first bucket is dosed with copper. So fish are netted from copper QT to copper bucket. Then I transfer them to a clean bucket with newly mixed water by hand. Then finally use a clean net to move them from the clean bucket to the sterile tank

MnFish1, post: 5829178, member: 76754"]I think this would be extremely unlikely. The number of 'cysts' is equal to the number of CI that were originally on the fish. If you scraped a cyst - it would likely 'break open' and the tomites would be killed by copper nearly immediately. I'm also not sure how easy it is to 'scrape' a cyst off of a surface in the first place. Lets say you do happen to get a cyst on a net - I wouldn't use the net from the QT tank to move the fish into the 'sterile' tank.

 

[MnFish1]

I can only see two explanations. Either have the parasite developed a resistance against copper – hence leading to that a few parasites have been able to both infect and reinfect your fishes – when you get a copper free environment – it just explode – or – there is a way for the parasite to stay as a trophont for a prolonged time period if the environmental conditions says so without develope the white spots. – or more likely – a combination of these two things.

Or most likely his copper test was off... I would ask one of the 'QT experts' - but I've always heard that you should test daily if not twice daily when using QT (even if there is a low likelihood of adsorption).

Again - I'm not an expert but I am understanding that there has never been a case of copper resistant 'anything'. But you're right its possible...

The main reason I think the test is wrong BTW, is that copper at those concentrations (2.7) over long periods of time would result in sick fish (wouldn't they)?

 

[MnFish1]

I don’t have much to add here other than these two points:

Let’s say they were copper resistant, but from the empirical data on here where one prominent member stated he has had over 350 fish in copper and no ich, I find it unlikely one of my 10 got a resistant strain.

Let’s say they were, well if they follow that reproduction cycle, the ttm in and of itself without chemicals should have also taken care of it.

Lastly, there is one fish store in the area that doesn’t use copper, petco, who isn’t allowed. I wouldn’t buy a fish from there, you can see parasites in almost every system they have.

There isn’t a store other than petco within 80 miles of me that doesn’t use copper. Even ones that state they try not to, in fact does , just try not to advertise it.

My top lfs, one who is highly viewed and brings in rare and sensitive fish, told me he would be out business if he had not. All the big wholesalers use it all the time. Just no getting around it.

I don't know of any LFS store that uses copper in all of their tanks. In fact the only store I will buy fish from is a store that does NOT use copper. With your 'TTM' method - did you change tanks every 3 days - or just once after 3 days? Because that also not the proper TTM method...

 

[MnFish1]

What step am I missing? On day 1, new water , new qt tank, I check level after adding and it’s on point. 3 days later I do so for the new transfer tank.

There is no way in 3 days that copper could go missing. There is nothing in there to remove it, no rock, calcium absent, filter pad , sand etc. just a glass tank, a plastic airline tube and a plastic 200 gph pump.

If anything the copper concentration would rise from evaporating water which I do not replace. In 3 days, I may lose a cup or two of water , if that.

If that truly is a missing step, that defies logic and what is though to be known about copper, and i can live with that.

This is just my opinion:

1. If I got a fish from a store and tested the copper level and it was 2.7 - I would have double/triple checked that value because that would likely result in sick fish (for you later) - ie weekend immune system, possible shorter life, etc as well as deaths.
2. If I bought a fish from a store that used copper and was told 'we never test the levels' - I wouldn't ever buy from that store again - thats ridiculous and poor care (even if you think they are 'the best')
3. If you're doing TTM you're supposed to change tanks every 2-3 days for x weeks not just once.
4. Again - most QT people recommend testing copper levels at least daily when using it (for a variety of reasons) - even if it was 'rock steady' you would have much more evidence to help figure out what the problem is. Though unlikely that the levels dropped - we dont know. Like I said - going just from a statistical basis - Low copper levels, errors in testing, or cross contamination are the likely causes of the ich on the fish now... As to the immediate deaths during QT - likely copper or ammonia...

 

[Wildreefs]

E

I don't know of any LFS store that uses copper in all of their tanks. In fact the only store I will buy fish from is a store that does NOT use copper. With your 'TTM' method - did you change tanks every 3 days - or just once after 3 days? Because that also not the proper TTM method...

Every 3 days during the 14 day process. If it were just once, they would have died of ammonia if left to stand in there for more than 3 days.

Every lfs worth using uses copper. If they say they don’t they are lying , petco doesn’t and there fish are in death row.

You must have owned or consulted for lfs stores, being so certain they A don’t use it, or B never go that high (which is it?)

Not testing everyday when there’s no possibility of absorption. At that rate, I should check salinity everyday too, with that logic, that can fluctuate just like the copper.

But you also insinuated I did the test incorrectly, so why even test them.

Quality marine uses copper, better make sure your lfs doesn’t use them (biggest wholesaler in US)

I am done posting here, this is unhelpful, aside from a few knowledgeable guys on here, there are definitely ones who throw anything at the wall to see what sticks.


Problem with message boards, everyone is an expert, I really only look to seek advise from a select few.


I test wrong, my lfs sucks, copper too high, too low, not testing often enough. Done

 

[MnFish1]

Every 3 days during the 14 day process. If it were just once, they would have died of ammonia if left to stand in there for more than 3 days

This the first time you made this clear

Every lfs worth using uses copper. If they say they don’t they are lying , petco doesn’t and there fish are in death row. You must have owned or consulted for lfs stores, being so certain they A don’t use it, or B never go that high (which is it?)

.

I buy fish that are already in tanks containing invertebrates. Thus I know. Many LFS keep fish this way... You're right some use copper.

Not testing everyday when there’s no possibility of absorption. At that rate, I should check salinity everyday too, with that logic, that can fluctuate just like the copper.

Then why do people recommend testing.

But you also insinuated I did the test incorrectly, so why even test them.

I only insinuated it because there has to be a reason that this failed. I was trying to help you... (as has everyone here).

You were the one that asked what could have gone wrong. I answered. It wasn't meant as an insult or slam or whatever. Im sorry if you took it that way.

 

[Lasse]

Let’s say they were copper resistant, but from the empirical data on here where one prominent member stated he has had over 350 fish in copper and no ich, I find it unlikely one of my 10 got a resistant strain.

The resistance population have not rise in your aquaria - if there is one - it has developed in the system that run constant copper in the suply line to you.

Let’s say they were, well if they follow that reproduction cycle, the ttm in and of itself without chemicals should have also taken care of it.

Yes

Lastly, there is one fish store in the area that doesn’t use copper, petco, who isn’t allowed. I wouldn’t buy a fish from there, you can see parasites in almost every system they have.

If I was the Devil’s Advocate - I would say - at least you will see which fishes that is not infected and do not buy that fish - along the other that use copper treatment you can´t judge whom is infected or not – obviously. I do not know Petco but they must have this rule because of something.

My top lfs, one who is highly viewed and brings in rare and sensitive fish, told me he would be out business if he had not. All the big wholesalers use it all the time. Just no getting around it.

There is only one problem with that – If the statement is true - they just transfer the problem to the hobbyist. They take the money and you take the death of the fish.

As I said before - I have helped my friend to import more than 20 ooo fish into his store since 2001 - we never ever have used any prophylactic treatment at all. If he should use copper constant in the water - he would be out of bussnies because no one will buy his fish. I live in Sweden and we seem to have another point of view of this thing
compared with you on the other side of the Atlantic. He imports direct from the exporters, he has serve as a wholesaler and he has a rumour of delivering very good and healthy fish both to LFS and end consumer – and he is still in the business.

I read what you have writing, and I can see now that I understand how you did it. I think that you have used – as we say here in Sweden - både hängslor och livrem – both braces and belts

This should not have been happened (get ich in the DT) after your treatments if common explanation of the live cycle is total true for the fish stage IMO. I try to focus on what we maybe do not know instead of concentrate to find wrong doing in your method. You have use both TTM and copper on the same time, you have rinse everything in your DT with chlorine before the start. You have taken fish from a system with therapeutic levels of copper – IMO -You have triple up the QT protocol but still you get ich in the DT. I have only two options – you are lying, or we have not enough of knowledge about this parasite lifecycle. Because of other experiences that´s inline with yours (although not so extreme) I have rule out lies in this case

I hope that you have not been offended of my posts in this issue - it have not been my goal at all. But i will still not change my mind about prophylactic treatment in any part of the supply line - it will kill our hobby in the long run - IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

This the first time you made this clear

Is this the differences between norwegians and swedes? - it was clear for me after the second page (sorry MnFish1 - i´m not only a swede - I´m from Gotheburg - we can´t ressist open goals )

Sincerely Lasse