Diatom filter for treating external parasites?

[robert]

Arvind, I have a pretty big tank with pretty big fish so going fallow for me is a non-starter. I have encountered both ich and velvet many times and unless you're caught flat-footed there is no reason to lose fish to these infestations. These parasites are big. They are easily filtered out and no you don't have to get them all. You just need to reduce their numbers to below the lethal threshold until your fishes natural immunity kicks in...this coupled with cellular senescence will pretty much accomplish what your trying to achieve by going fallow.

The filter doesn't need to be diatomaceous earth. A simple string or foam water filter would work on a smaller system. What is most important is that you use the filter appropriately, with adequate flow and to do this you need to understand a little about the parasite and how and where it acquires your fish. Read: Dynamics and distribution properties of theronts of the parasitic ciliate Cryptocaryon irritans. From this article you should get a better sense of what you're dealing with and will be able determine those areas in your where your fish will most likely become infested. Address those with good mechanical filtration and barriers if necessary and most of the work is done.

Now on your next system build, include the capacity for solid mechanical filtration in your build and you'll lose a lot fewer fish.

 

[Humblefish]

Nice find Arvind...the oft reported failure of fallow periods to totally eliminate ich and velvet from a reef system has been the subject of heated debate for years. Some, will reject observations such as the one offered by Gosnell, insisting that some form of cross contamination had to take place. I think however that those who do, have a shallow grasp of the subject area and over-estimate what we (collectively) really know.

That article provided few details about the history of the author's infected aquarium, other than the outbreak "occurred during a period where no fish were added to the tank (last fish added over 6 months ago)". No timeline of when new corals/inverts might have been added, which can just as easily infect an aquarium with velvet as a fish. This lack of information makes it a "shallow example" to use and prop up as evidence of why going fallow is flawed logic. But distorting information is something you do seem to specialize in.

See: Transcriptome analysis of dormant tomonts of the marine fish ectoparasitic ciliate Cryptocaryon irritans under low temperature. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4867990/

Note to self: Don't ever let my aquarium temp drop to 12C/53.6F during a fallow period.

After that read: Dormancy induced by a hypoxic environment in tomonts of Cryptocaryon irritans, a parasitic ciliate of marine teleosts.

Now this is something actually worth looking into: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617315892

1. What regions of an aquarium (e.g. deep sand bed, inside a large rock) could be a hypoxic environment? I guess it's the same as asking which areas of a tank would anaerobic bacteria flourish?
2. What could be done to oxygenate these areas (if possible) during a fallow period.

Thanks @robert

 

[robert]

That article provided few details about the history of the author's infected aquarium, other than the outbreak "occurred during a period where no fish were added to the tank (last fish added over 6 months ago)". No timeline of when new corals/inverts might have been added, which can just as easily infect an aquarium with velvet as a fish. This lack of information makes it a "shallow example" to use and prop up as evidence of why going fallow is flawed logic. But distorting information is something you do seem to specialize in.

Mr Gosnell seems to be pretty up-to-date with respect to velvet. I would think he would be aware of velvet's modalities of transmission and it was his opinion that velvet either sequestered in the substrate or survived inside a host fish. I think Mr. Gosnell understood the significance, don't you?

I don't think "going fallow" is flawed logic. I understand the basis of this technique. (I also understand that there a huge holes in what we think we know.) I find the technique of going fallow impractical and deficient in that it does nothing to address the real problem. That problem is the lack of dilution which permits the build up of lethal levels of pathogens in the confined volumes of our tanks. Whether the introduced parasite was the result of cross contamination or was sequestered is inconsequential to my low opinion of this strategy. I prefer ensuring sufficient dilution as the first step in setting up a tank - more of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure approach as ich/velvet and other will always find its way into our systems.

But distorting information is something you do seem to specialize in. Really? Nice! Funny, I was thinking the same.

Note to self: Don't ever let my aquarium temp drop to 12C/53.6F during a fallow period.

If that's all you took from that article...well what can I say?

 

[Humblefish]

Mr Gosnell seems to be pretty up-to-date with respect to velvet. I would think he would be aware of velvet's modalities of transmission and it was his opinion that velvet either sequestered in the substrate or survived inside a host fish. I think Mr. Gosnell understood the significance, don't you?

Again, it's hard to draw any conclusions when so little info is provided on the tank's (livestock) history. Or had he been running a UV or employed some other technique(s) to preemptively address fish parasites (which could delay symptoms from showing)? I understand the narrative presented fits your agenda, so you're going to latch onto it as proof positive. But usually when I dig deeper into scenarios like this I discover an important tidbit of information was left out, like a coral frag being added just prior to the outbreak.

Now, the hypoxic environment study appears legit but I still need to read the whole thing. And figure out if it pertains to an aquarium environment. If it does, it's a game changer for sure and I appreciate you bringing that information to the community's attention.

 

[Arvind Arya]

Robert
What do you suggest to do regarding the fallow period? I am about 2 weeks in. Velvet

 

[Arvind Arya]

I am confused. I dont mind messing up my sand bed- to release any velevet spores etc. I also use a sump. 200 micron filter sock. Good skimmer- ASM G2, rated for 200 gals. I have a 90 gallon tank.
I have live rock in my center and also use Purigen and am running a Skimz Chaeto reactor.
That is it... anything else? I think that I caught this way late and by then all my fish had it.

 

[brwaldbaum]

Why didn't DE filtration work in this case (post #1245)?

It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

I think these guys would find the current discussion relevant:
@Lowell Lemon
@Paul B

 

[Paul B]

I think these guys would find the current discussion relevant:
@Lowell Lemon
@Paul B

I can't speak for Lowell but there is "almost" nothing I could add to this discussion as I find all discussions of parasites silly. But that is just me. Keep fish immune and you won't have to worry about it.

But I did say "almost" The only exception is that if you want a tank with "probably" no parasites, don't just run a diatom filter on it as many parasites will not get caught in the filter. Run the filter for a while to make sure the bag is coated with powder, then take the outflow hose and, without turning off the filter, fill another tank with the outflow.

 

[brwaldbaum]

I can't speak for Lowell but there is "almost" nothing I could add to this discussion as I find all discussions of parasites silly. But that is just me. Keep fish immune and you won't have to worry about it.

But I did say "almost" The only exception is that if you want a tank with "probably" no parasites, don't just run a diatom filter on it as many parasites will not get caught in the filter. Run the filter for a while to make sure the bag is coated with powder, then take the outflow hose and, without turning off the filter, fill another tank with the outflow.

Was I mistaken in thinking you cure very sick fish with both Cu/Formalin and a DE filter in a QT?

 

[Arvind Arya]

Paul
How long do you empty your tank doing that method? Do you do this to rid the parasites out completely and not recirculate in the DT?

 

[Paul B]

Was I mistaken in thinking you cure very sick fish with both Cu/Formalin and a DE filter in a QT?

No, you were not mistaken. I also add quinicrine hydrocloride to that if I have it. I get some nice fish for free from LFSs that they feel will die soon. Cure them and your are good to go.

Paul
How long do you empty your tank doing that method? Do you do this to rid the parasites out completely and not recirculate in the DT?

I don't have to do that, I was just saying, you could do that if you wanted parasite free water. I used to do that many years ago before I learned how to get my fish immune. I did it with NSW because I was afraid of adding parasites. Now, I like parasites.

 

[Arvind Arya]

Is a Diatom filter worth running on your tank a few hours per day or all day? I know its more a maintenance thing but any thoughts on this? How many of us use one?

 

[Paul B]

No, it is not worth running a few hours a day. You would remove all the microscopic food. It is only used if there is a problem or if you want to stir up the substrate to suck it out.
I use mine a couple of times a year.

 

[Humblefish]

Is a Diatom filter worth running on your tank a few hours per day or all day? I know its more a maintenance thing but any thoughts on this? How many of us use one?

I use the Marineland Polishing Filter (with diatomaceous earth) to clear cloudy tanks following water changes/maintenance: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...xternal-parasites.212429/page-18#post-4637245

 

[Arvind Arya]

I use the Marineland Polishing Filter (with diatomaceous earth) to clear cloudy tanks following water changes/maintenance: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...xternal-parasites.212429/page-18#post-4637245

will this filter help with velvet or no? Diatom filter only?

 

[Humblefish]

will this filter help with velvet or no? Diatom filter only?

It will undoubtedly filter out velvet free swimmers, protecting fish from reinfection. But what percentage get filtered out vs. what percentage latch onto a fish before being filtered out is anyone’s guess. The idea is to use a diatom filter to reduce the parasite’s numbers, until eventually they become less and less (and thus more manageable for the fish to deal with.) It is also probable that your fishes’ natural immune systems will begin to develop resistance/immunity during this time. However, whether 100% eradication is possible/probable by employing this strategy is dubious in my estimation. I know people who have run DE filters for years, it breaks, they don’t replace it, and a few weeks later all hell breaks loose (i.e. velvet returns). So, if you’re considering trying a diatom for parasite control just know that it is a forever thing.

 

[Arvind Arya]

It’s another piece of equipment and I like to keep things simple but if it helps I don’t mind using it all the time versus losing hundreds of dollars of fish this device of us than $100 itself

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Why didn't DE filtration work in this case (post #1245)?

It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

I think these guys would find the current discussion relevant:
@Lowell Lemon
@Paul B

Pool filters are not the best at small micron filtration due to design and flow. You would need a cartridge filter plus the DE to get down to the small micron filtration necessary for success. The cartridge acts a a barrier for the DE to prevent it from blowing into the display or wearing out your pumps before their time. You have to monitor with a pressure guage to make sure you are back flushing the fines or replacing them at the right time. Sand and DE would allow for a lot of bypass in the substrate leading to a loss in small micron filtration.

I would never depend on use of a pool filter and some ozone to control outbreaks in a main display of this size. I use mechanical filtration before the U.V. to enhance the "kill power" of the U.V. This would compliment protein skimming and possible ozone injection. This is just what works for me. I further add that I use quarantine systems before moving fish to a main display. I used to design central holding systems for stores and used the same principals we are discussing here. I also maintained displays for dental offices, a hospital, a corporate office, and a University book store. In most of the displays I did not use U.V. but some ozone. After the fish were observed in my holding system with the mechanical filtration and U.V. system I then transfered them to the displays. Loss rates in the displays were very low and fish often spawned in the displays.

The main point in this is that I never had a disease problem in the systems I maintained except for one that was quite large (over 3000 gallons display) that was located over 6 hours away from my office. That was two systems (1560 gallons display each) that had to be set on site with a contracted delivery to meet a grand opening date. Many factors conspired to create the problems I experienced there. The problem was solved by observation, proper feeding, and housing of the population in my facility and additional use of U.V. and chillers in the main display. The corporate office had problems with their HVAC design that created water Temps in the 90's as well a a departure from my original design to lower cost. They had to return to my original design to overcome the problems with temp control, fish loss and disease.

The main point is that I never had success creating a "disease free" reef or fish tank using profolactic drug protocols. When I attempted that route all I did was kill fish at a higher rate!

 

[Arvind Arya]

what would be more effective with parasite management? UV or a diatom filter?
I heard a UV could kill your beneficial bacteria- it kills anything it comes into contact with.
Diatom not so much- just more matter passing through including critters.

Anyone want to chime in about which is better? I still have about 4 weeks to go before my 6 weeks is up!

 

[Lowell Lemon]

what would be more effective with parasite management? UV or a diatom filter?
I heard a UV could kill your beneficial bacteria- it kills anything it comes into contact with.
Diatom not so much- just more matter passing through including critters.

Anyone want to chime in about which is better? I still have about 4 weeks to go before my 6 weeks is up!

U.V. does not harm beneficial bacteria because it attaches to glass, rock, and any other substrate. Most beneficial bacteria are not just floating around in the water but create a film on surfaces.

True things that pass through a proper sized U.V. are killed or sterilized preventing population growth of the pathogen population.
I use mechanical filtration before the U. V. to enhance the kill power if you will. A cartridge filter works fine don't remember the micron size.