Dino(?) problems in a new tank

[CHSUB]

Do you think the problem will solve itself when the tank matures? Yes and No.

Imo, you must intervene with better maintenance. Many people, when discussing inorganic nutrients and nuisance algae, point to R. Ross high nutrient aquarium and largely miss the point. Ross is meticulous in maintaining his aquarium, he speaks of manual removal, scrubbing the rocks and using a canister filter. Everything in your aquarium appears “right” except problem algae. Attack it daily if needed and allow your corals to take up more real estate; increase CUC and keep doing the same as your corals look good. Make your CUC work more by cleaning the glass and the areas that are easier for you and let them get their food from the rocks.

 

[Twoddler]

A microscope would be a massive help to you, I'm battling dinos at the moment ( Prorocentrum ) this type does not go into the water column when lights out.

I also have a thread going on my battle with dinos, had a lot of good feedback & debate done a lot of research, but I know the strain of dino I,ve got, and formulated, (with the help of members) to hope fully keep them at bay.

First pic was mid Jan, second pic was yesterday

I,ve been very pro active and still a long way to go

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't claim to be any sort of eyeball identifier of pests, but I would not assume these are dinos.

It might be cyanobacteria, or a mix of stuff.

Pushing it around might help, short of a microscope. Snotty is dinos. Cyano is not typically like that.

If this were my tank and especially if this stuff is snotty, I'd raise nutrients. I'd also remove as much as possible by sucking it out, no matter what it is.

Both of the nitrate and phosphate levels fit into my recommendation to raise them, whether there's a pest problem or not. As one can see from the posts above, not all agree.

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

4. What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

 

[Simonsen]

A microscope would be a massive help to you, I'm battling dinos at the moment ( Prorocentrum ) this type does not go into the water column when lights out.

I also have a thread going on my battle with dinos, had a lot of good feedback & debate done a lot of research, but I know the strain of dino I,ve got, and formulated, (with the help of members) to hope fully keep them at bay.

First pic was mid Jan, second pic was yesterday

I,ve been very pro active and still a long way to go

What did you do to get this result?

 

[Simonsen]

I don't claim to be any sort of eyeball identifier of pests, but I would not assume these are dinos.

It might be cyanobacteria, or a mix of stuff.

Pushing it around might help, short of a microscope. Snotty is dinos. Cyano is not typically like that.

If this were my tank and especially if this stuff is snotty, I'd raise nutrients. I'd also remove as much as possible by sucking it out, no matter what it is.

Both of the nitrate and phosphate levels fit into my recommendation to raise them, whether there's a pest problem or not. As one can see from the posts above, not all agree.

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

4. What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

I trust on your expertise! I have read a lot of your post and it has been much good reading.

I am not sure it’s dinos but it’s so strange that they are disappearing when it’s dark.

I did experiment with turning my skimmer off for 6 hours today but to be honest it looks like my Acros lost a little PE so i think i need to feed heavier does perhaps. You don’t recommend any liquid Nitrate or Phosphate?

Better to raise it slowly by feeding for the corals I assume.

Would siphoning and WC hurt any?

My tank is just 3 months and 2 weeks so it could be a ugly phase?

And would dosing bacteria’s and Phyto hurt?

 

[BryanM]

A microscope would be a massive help to you, I'm battling dinos at the moment ( Prorocentrum ) this type does not go into the water column when lights out.

I also have a thread going on my battle with dinos, had a lot of good feedback & debate done a lot of research, but I know the strain of dino I,ve got, and formulated, (with the help of members) to hope fully keep them at bay.

First pic was mid Jan, second pic was yesterday

I,ve been very pro active and still a long way to go

Long way?? Looks like you're well on your way.

Also, holy toadstool! I thought mine was big

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I trust on your expertise! I have read a lot of your post and it has been much good reading.

I am not sure it’s dinos but it’s so strange that they are disappearing when it’s dark.

I did experiment with turning my skimmer off for 6 hours today but to be honest it looks like my Acros lost a little PE so i think i need to feed heavier does perhaps. You don’t recommend any liquid Nitrate or Phosphate?

Better to raise it slowly by feeding for the corals I assume.

Would siphoning and WC hurt any?

My tank is just 3 months and 2 weeks so it could be a ugly phase?

And would dosing bacteria’s and Phyto hurt?

If the goal is out competing dinos for space on surfaces, I recommend dosing sodium silicate solution (spurs diatoms) and food grade sodium phosphate and ammonium bicarbonate (preferred but more tedious) or sodium nitrate (less preferred but easier) to spur some more green algae and other organisms.

manual removal of the pests in all cases, and reducing organics (skimming, GAC, purigen, etc.) all help.

 

[SonOfaGoat]

Definitely worth confirming if dinos with microscope.

If you do have dinos Ostreopsis is easier to deal with (UV) but more toxic. I had likely some Ostreopsis and amphidinium as when I added UV the next day my tank suffered a mini crash. A fish died as well as my cleaner shrimp and all my corals suffered. Many melted away ( hammer, clove polyps, hairy mushrooms and even xenia). So with that said make sure you run carbon as you fight dinos to soak up the toxins they release when they die.

Vacuum everyday into a sock. Add the water back in. I used a 5mm micron sock water runs through clear. I dosed silicate and microbactor7. Raising temp up to 81-82 was very effective.

 

[bobnicaragua]

I dosed fenbendazole to kill clove polyps and got a Dino outbreak after the clove polyps and all my snails died. You can see the Dino’s all over the back glass.

I raised the temperature to 82 and started dosing microbacter 7. Things are looking a little better today. In my experience, raising your nutrients will make the dinos worse.

I also ordered a hand held UV from 3DReefing that has positive reviews.

 

[Twoddler]

What did you do to get this result?

It's not a result yet, still on going battle but in short

Turkey base rock, siphoned sand through a reactor full of floss back into the sump everyday for about 2wks

Dosed microbactor7 once a day

Dosed live phyto
Dosed pods

Whilst dosing mb7 & phyto turned uv & skimmer off for 4hrs

While doing this I was re balancing nutrients, got nutrients to were I wanted them p04 0.1 No3 50

Whilst waiting for sodium silicate ( waterglass ) to come I did a 4 day blackout

Put uv in main display just incase dinos did migrate into water column searching for light.

Test with microscope, went from 20ish cells per view down to 2 or 3

Silicate arrived yesterday so started dosing

Stopped cleaning sand or tank, just waiting for diatoms

If this doesn't work longterm I'll be removing the sand.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ok guys, now i am pretty confused. My corals have pretty great colour, the LPSs is pretty large and happy, but i tear my hear off because of that ugly brown film on the sand and on the rocks. I have brushed the rocks and manual removed them and running UV 24/7.

I have currently 3 theories that i am not sure how to deal with:

1) My nutrients are too high and the algae make my Hanna gauges read wrong. False readings because of the high nitrates and phosphates

2) My nutrients are too low the the Dinos love the environment.

3) My tank is too new and this will work it out itself when it’s get more matured? Just keep dosing bacteria’s, pods and Phyto?

Its neither. When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and tank and its important though to identify the type of dino for most effective battle.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10% IF you have light dependant corals such as SPS) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights which works as an oxidizer. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED AMINO OR ADD NOPOX which is food for dinos, however you can feed coral, food which will help no3 and po4 to increase. If increasing nutrients, try to keep no3 to about 5 until you are done battling these cells.
Doing a daily siphoning will help greatly But . . . . . Siphoning will reduce nutrients , so siphon the water into/through a filter sock and save the water and return it back to tank. Obviously clean the filter sock each time.
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

 

[Simonsen]

Its neither. When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and tank and its important though to identify the type of dino for most effective battle.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10% IF you have light dependant corals such as SPS) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights which works as an oxidizer. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED AMINO OR ADD NOPOX which is food for dinos, however you can feed coral, food which will help no3 and po4 to increase. If increasing nutrients, try to keep no3 to about 5 until you are done battling these cells.
Doing a daily siphoning will help greatly But . . . . . Siphoning will reduce nutrients , so siphon the water into/through a filter sock and save the water and return it back to tank. Obviously clean the filter sock each time.
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

I have a decent load of SPS frags and some Gonis and Torches. Will dose survive in 10% blue light?

And what coral food do you recommend? Normally use RedSea Reef energy and Reefroids ones a week. Should i keep doing this?

 

[Simonsen]

Did test the nutrients today and this is what Hanna reads. How can this be?

As i have a lot of algae and a good amount of fish that i feed twice with frozen food?

 

[Tahoe61]

imo, dinos were caused by an excess of waste
raising nutrients would be fine, but nitrate has to be raised, that does seem bottomed out

They aren't. Back in the 80s and 90s some hobbyist ran much higher nutrient systems. Dino was rarely a problem.
There's no one cause, but there are a lot of contributing variables. There's no one solution except patience.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did test the nutrients today and this is what Hanna reads. How can this be?

As i have a lot of algae and a good amount of fish that i feed twice with frozen food?

A lot of any organism, whether it is corals, macroalgae, or pest dinos, cyano, or green algae can consume all of the available nutrients.

As is clear from this thread and dozens like it, there are different opinions on how to deal with low nutrients and/or dinos, but my opinion is that undetectable nutrients is a concern, that raising it and dosing silicate can often help dinos, and I personally would not let it remain low/undetectable in a dino situation.

 

[CHSUB]

Yes agree different opinions and both could be right depending on the individual eco system, imo. The first thing I would do is spend the afternoon removing all the algae with toothbrush, turkey basting and WC. If WC was limiting removal I would also use a temporary canister filter to vacuum the top layer of sand and filter particles from the water; clean the glass and powerheads for any algae. My canister filter was $65 from Amazon.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have a decent load of SPS frags and some Gonis and Torches. Will dose survive in 10% blue light?

And what coral food do you recommend? Normally use RedSea Reef energy and Reefroids ones a week. Should i keep doing this?

Those foods are good,,,, just dont feed during the 5 day period and the 10% blue is only 5 days and will be adequate

 

[Simonsen]

A lot of any organism, whether it is corals, macroalgae, or pest dinos, cyano, or green algae can consume all of the available nutrients.

As is clear from this thread and dozens like it, there are different opinions on how to deal with low nutrients and/or dinos, but my opinion is that undetectable nutrients is a concern, that raising it and dosing silicate can often help dinos, and I personally would not let it remain low/undetectable in a dino situation.

I see. Then I need to try to raise them. Any good suggestions except from raise feeding?

I got these two that i could dose to raise it a bit.

 

[bobnicaragua]

I have done blackouts with acropora. They don’t like it.

I would raise the temperature, dose bacteria, run a UV. Maybe shorten the photoperiod.

 

[Simonsen]

I have done blackouts with acropora. They don’t like it.

I would raise the temperature, dose bacteria, run a UV. Maybe shorten the photoperiod.

Yeah, think I don’t do it this way. How many hours would you cut down to?

I run UV. How does the acros take the temp raise?