DIY Lanthanum Dosing

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Someone asked for a DIY lanthanum dosing recipe.

Be sure you understand that some folks have issues with fish (especially tangs) before embarking on lanthanum dosing.

it is also preferable to catch as many of the solids that precipitate out as you can, so dosing before some sort of mechanical filtration is desirable. Many folks use a filter sock.

Finally, note that lanthanum dosing will tend to drop alkalinity a bit, both from binding phosphate and from forming some lanthanum carbonate.

OK, so here's the rationale...

Lanthanum precipitates phosphate as LaPO4. Thus, each one lanthanum ion will remove one phosphate ion (ignoring lanthanum that ends up in other compounds, such as lanthanum carbonate, bound to organics, or remains dissolved in the water).

One phosphate weighs 95 grams per mole
One lanthanum weighs 139 g/mole

Thus, one mg of lanthanum ion removes 0.68 mg of phosphate.

I was asked to use lanthanum chloride heptahydrate ( Lacl3 7H2o; mw 371.5 g/mole) ) to make the dosing solution.

That material is 37% lanthanum by weight.

Dissolve 9 grams (~2 level teaspoons) of lanthanum chloride heptahydrate in water to make 500 mL total.

That solution contains 6.7 grams/L (3.33 g/500 mL)of lanthanum, or 6.7 mg/mL.

Let's pick a dosing volume of 1 mL, so we are dosing 6.7 mg of lanthanum, which will remove 6.7 x 0.68 = 4.6 mg of phosphate.

If that is added to an aquarium that has a total volume of 100 L, then we will be expecting to remove about 4.6 mg/100 L = 0.046 mg/L (~0.047 ppm) of phosphate.

Remember that due to binding to rock and sand, and release from that reservoir when you try to lower phosphate, one may see phosphate come back up close to the starting point within a day or two after dosing, and lowering phosphate can be a lengthy process.
 

BeanAnimal

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I am one that has an issue. I dosed lanthanum (meticulously calculated trials) on and off for 2 years, attempting to find a safe dose. At any effective level, fish suffered.
 

Thales

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I am one that has an issue. I dosed lanthanum (meticulously calculated trials) on and off for 2 years, attempting to find a safe dose. At any effective level, fish suffered.
Hey pal!
I have been dosing lanthanum for the last few year at low dosages into the skimmer. I dilute 40ml of lanth with 3000 ml of DI and dose at like 50 ml a day. I have seen no fish problems, and it slowly impacted the phosphate.
 

Sean Clark

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I have dripped it straight into the tank for going on a decade and not had an issue. Works like a charm.
I think that there is some other reason causing some people to have issues with their fish that gets blamed on the lanthanum chloride.
Correlation does not equal causation.
 

BeanAnimal

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I have dripped it straight into the tank for going on a decade and not had an issue. Works like a charm.
I think that there is some other reason causing some people to have issues with their fish that gets blamed on the lanthanum chloride.
Correlation does not equal causation.
That is a rather misleading (open ended) statement.
Of course correlation does not imply causation, but that does not mean that observed events and postulated conclusions are necessarily wrong either.

In my case, through repeated experiments over ~2 years I was able to see a direct and repeatable effect on (3) tangs in my system, with their health visibly deteriorating the longer LaCl was used in the system and improving when LaCl dosing was ceased. This was observed over numerous cycles. I lost a Yellow tang in the process and nearly lost my Scopas tang. A tomini tang was affected but to a lesser extent.

My quest to lower phosphates safely with LaCl was not designed or controlled as a scientific experiment and instead more a trial and error progression. I did keep detailed notes on doses, schedules, phosphate levels (Hanna ULR and Hanna Phosphate, as well as Salifert) and countless fish photos. Unfortunately the notebook was tossed after it became waterlogged and moldy a few years ago. I have no idea where the bulk of the photos are, but there were a series of them published on my website at one point.

I am aware that many of you dose LaCl and feel that it is safe. From my research and experience, scientific or not, I do not share that opinion. I won't change your minds and you won't change mine, so there really is no argument to be had.
 

Sean Clark

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That is a rather misleading (open ended) statement.
Of course correlation does not imply causation, but that does not mean that observed events and postulated conclusions are necessarily wrong either.

In my case, through repeated experiments over ~2 years I was able to see a direct and repeatable effect on (3) tangs in my system, with their health visibly deteriorating the longer LaCl was used in the system and improving when LaCl dosing was ceased. This was observed over numerous cycles. I lost a Yellow tang in the process and nearly lost my Scopas tang. A tomini tang was affected but to a lesser extent.

My quest to lower phosphates safely with LaCl was not designed or controlled as a scientific experiment and instead more a trial and error progression. I did keep detailed notes on doses, schedules, phosphate levels (Hanna ULR and Hanna Phosphate, as well as Salifert) and countless fish photos. Unfortunately the notebook was tossed after it became waterlogged and moldy a few years ago. I have no idea where the bulk of the photos are, but there were a series of them published on my website at one point.

I am aware that many of you dose LaCl and feel that it is safe. From my research and experience, scientific or not, I do not share that opinion. I won't change your minds and you won't change mine, so there really is no argument to be had.
Stating my experience is not misleading. It is my experience; just as your experience is yours.
You are correct in that we won't be changing any minds here. That is not my intent. I am simply sharing my view as you and many others have.
 

bushdoc

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Stating my experience is not misleading. It is my experience; just as your experience is yours.
You are correct in that we won't be changing any minds here. That is not my intent. I am simply sharing my view as you and many others have.
Stating your experience is not misleading, I agree. I used to dose Lanthanum directly to the DT without negative effects on fish too. My phosphates dropped precipitously though, causing some coral demise.
Second part of your statement is an unproved hypothesis though. There are many reports correlation between lanthanum dosing directly to DT or sump and fish morbidity or mortality.
I have 5 micron sock where I drip Lanthanum chloride slowly if needed.
 

BeanAnimal

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Stating my experience is not misleading. It is my experience; just as your experience is yours.
You are correct in that we won't be changing any minds here. That is not my intent. I am simply sharing my view as you and many others have.

I did not say you experience was misleading.

I was speaking to your discounting negative effects due to correlation vs causation.

I have absolutely no desire to engage in an argument on this subject. I stated my opinion and basis for that opinion, be it valid or invalid.

Cheers ;)
 

Sean Clark

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Stating your experience is not misleading, I agree. I used to dose Lanthanum directly to the DT without negative effects on fish too. My phosphates dropped precipitously though, causing some coral demise.
Second part of your statement is an unproved hypothesis though. There are many reports correlation between lanthanum dosing directly to DT or sump and fish morbidity or mortality.
I have 5 micron sock where I drip Lanthanum chloride slowly if needed.
All hypothesis are unproven. My hypothesis is contrary to others but that does not make it wrong. Sharing a viewpoint that doesn't coinside with others is no different than people sharing that LC has harmful effects on their livestock. Just more unproven hypothesis.

I did not say you experience was misleading.

I was speaking to your discounting negative effects due to correlation vs causation.

I have absolutely no desire to engage in an argument on this subject. I stated my opinion and basis for that opinion, be it valid or invalid.

Cheers ;)
My stating that I have not had issues with livestock and suggesting that I believe other factors are involved is also not misleading. Labeling a viewpoint that does not agree with yours as misleading is not productive, does not add to or further the conversation, and is combative.
 

BeanAnimal

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I am being combative because I stated my opinion and indicated that I have no desire or need to try and prove you or any other proponents of LaCl dosing and its safety wrong?

Again, I have my opinion based on my experience and research and it differs from yours and that of many other people’s. I have no need or desire to try to prove you (or anybody) wrong or debate the subject. I offered my opinion, that’s it.

Lastly, you are not getting what I found misleading about your comments. I tried to explain, but both of your responses appear to indicate that you missed the point. That is quite okay, at this juncture it makes no difference and need not be dragged out.
 
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Sean Clark

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I am being combative because I stated my opinion and indicated that I have no desire or need to try and prove you or any other proponents of LaCl dosing and its safety wrong?

Again, I have my opinion based on my experience and research and it differs from yours and that of many other people’s. I have no need or desire to try to prove you (or anybody) wrong or debate the subject. I offered my opinion, that’s it.

Lastly, you are not getting what I found misleading about your comments. I tried to explain, but both of your responses appear to indicate that you missed the point. That is quite okay, at this juncture it makes no difference and need not be dragged out.
You are being combative because you stated that my post was misleading. I did not attack your views, claim that your opinion was wrong, or claim that you were misleading.

I clarified how my statements are no different that anyone else's.

I am not missing any points. You don't seem to accept the fact that others can have alternative views from your own. Apparently if someone does not agree with you then they are "wrong".

My views are just as welcome here whether or not you agree with them.
 

BeanAnimal

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From above:
I am aware that many of you dose LaCl and feel that it is safe. From my research and experience, scientific or not, I do not share that opinion. I won't change your minds and you won't change mine, so there really is no argument to be had.
And restated again several times after that.

Please find somebody else to spar with. Randy posted good information here for folks that want to dose LaCl. He indicated that some folks don’t feel it is safe. I raised my hand and briefly explained why I was in that camp. Full stop. I have nothing to debate here.
 

Sean Clark

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From above:

And restated again several times after that.

Please find somebody else to spar with. Randy posted good information here for folks that want to dose LaCl. He indicated that some folks don’t feel it is safe. I raised my hand and briefly explained why I was in that camp. Full stop. I have nothing to debate here.
Noone is sparing with you.

Sharing your experience is welcome.

Claiming that my experience is misleading is not productive and in claiming that my post is misleading you are not providing my view the same respect which everyone has showed your point of view.

That is where we differ. I respect your view but disagree with it. You do not respect my view and labled it as missleading because you do not agree with it.

I am not debating anything. I am sharing my experience. You do not need to agree with my experience for it to be valid.

I also do not require your validation.

To call my post misleading is inappropriate at least.

Enjoy not using Lanthinum Chloride as it apparently is not for you. This does not affect me in the slightest. The rest of us would probably bennifit from furthering the discussion about using Lanthinum Chloride.
 

hart24601

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That is a rather misleading (open ended) statement.
Of course correlation does not imply causation, but that does not mean that observed events and postulated conclusions are necessarily wrong either.

In my case, through repeated experiments over ~2 years I was able to see a direct and repeatable effect on (3) tangs in my system, with their health visibly deteriorating the longer LaCl was used in the system and improving when LaCl dosing was ceased. This was observed over numerous cycles. I lost a Yellow tang in the process and nearly lost my Scopas tang. A tomini tang was affected but to a lesser extent.

My quest to lower phosphates safely with LaCl was not designed or controlled as a scientific experiment and instead more a trial and error progression. I did keep detailed notes on doses, schedules, phosphate levels (Hanna ULR and Hanna Phosphate, as well as Salifert) and countless fish photos. Unfortunately the notebook was tossed after it became waterlogged and moldy a few years ago. I have no idea where the bulk of the photos are, but there were a series of them published on my website at one point.

I am aware that many of you dose LaCl and feel that it is safe. From my research and experience, scientific or not, I do not share that opinion. I won't change your minds and you won't change mine, so there really is no argument to be had.
Appreciate you chiming in and your detailed observations, thank you for posting. I will be avoiding it in my current system from what you observed.
 

jsker

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This is my notes on dosing in the past.

1.14 per ml per 100 gallons

1.14/100=0.0114ml per gallon but to error on the light side .01 per gallon



.01 cc per 10 gallon of tank water volume diluted in 1 liter of RO/DI, this would be aggressive

.0075 cc per 10 gallon of tank water Volume diluted in 1 liter of RO/DI

.005 cc per 10 gallon of tank water Volume diluted in 1 liter of RO/DI of tank water would be half of the .01

.002 cc per 10 gallon of tank water Volume diluted in 1 liter of RO/DI of tank water would be a weak mix
 

BeanAnimal

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This is my notes on dosing in the past.

1.14 per ml per 100 gallons

1.14/100=0.0114ml per gallon but to error on the light side .01 per gallon



.01 cc per 10 gallon of tank water volume diluted in 1 liter of RO/DI, this would be aggressive

.0075 cc per 10 gallon of tank water Volume diluted in 1 liter of RO/DI

.005 cc per 10 gallon of tank water Volume diluted in 1 liter of RO/DI of tank water would be half of the .01

.002 cc per 10 gallon of tank water Volume diluted in 1 liter of RO/DI of tank water would be a weak mix

When I diluted and dosed to similar ratios, the benefit vs GFO or other presumably ‘safe’ methods was diminished, esp given the hassle of filter socks and other precipitate capture methods. Given Randy’s math, I assume some quantification can be done for any dosing level though.

Are there safe dosing regimens? My opinion is set, but as evidenced by several of you, there very well may be. How many people understand and can follow without harm? Who knows…
 

Pistondog

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Used lc 20 or 30 times over the past 5 years with no apparent problems.
Used brightwell phosphate e and phosban L.
Do not reduce po4 more than 0.5 ppm per day. Never use it below 0.2 ppm phosphate to try to insure all the lc reacts quickly.
Lanthanum chloride reacts with phosphate to form a flocculant, or precipatate that can mostly be filtered with a 5 micron sock. Run a skimmer at the same time.
As others have said dilute 50:1, and drip into the overflow over 4 to 8 hours.
If you see cloudy water in your tank when using lc, it is not being filtered effectively by the sox, stop and check your methods.
I think minimizing the amount that reaches the dt by 1) dripping into overflow 2) filter sox, 3) dilution over hours is best practice, regardless of manufacturers instructions.
Lc is a good tool that requires a safe dosing method.
 

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