DIY Lanthanum Dosing

[ocncheffy]

I would add to that list that some folks, including me, have noticed recurrent tissue striping in SPS when running GFO.

This is why I stopped GFO and started dosing lanthium. Results have been amazing, and I can directly drop my phosphates .03 at a time per dose. Zero impact to SPS, while GFO nearly killed them. I also have 3 tangs that I've noticed zero impact from dosing as well. I simply shoot 1ml directly in front of the skimmer, no drip needed for my 93g tank.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Lanthanum Chloride is probably the cheapest way to remove phosphate by volume.

They way I've done it over the years is to drip it veeeeery slowly, (overnight) into the overflow where it has time to react as it barrels down to the sump and precipitates. I've used 1 or 5 micron socks which people will complain are clogged in day or two. Well, you only need it there for that long.

Never lost a fish to this - can't say the same for those willing to engage in carpet surfing.

 

[Jason_MrFrags]

I've used SeaKlear. 5ml diluted with 2L of rodi. Using BRS 1ml pump, dripped into a 5 micron filter sock.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I've used SeaKlear.

That's what I've used too, a bottle will last a lifetime.

 

[Thales]

Pretty much 100% agree and your feelings, experience and observations parallel mine.

I choose to offer the ‘unsafe’ bias based on the fact that almost every LaCl thread I see is full of terrible dosing advice And pure ignorance to the danger.

If I was in that same, through the roof phosphate boat as you. Lesson learned, don’t ever let it get that high again!

Ha! I think i'll let it go back up just to show that it's nothing to worry about. Though, the LC dosing i am doing now is so easy

 

[Thales]

That's not true. Lanthanum easily takes phosphate to below 0.01 ppm.

Reports from folks that use it a lot at Public Aquaria, and some hobby, indicate that it doesn't work well at lowering to below .1. These are long term users, so I don't think bounce back is the issue. Maybe there is some saltwater hurdle invloved?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is why I stopped GFO and started dosing lanthium. Results have been amazing, and I can directly drop my phosphates .03 at a time per dose. Zero impact to SPS, while GFO nearly killed them.

My expectation is that such an effect on corals comes from using too much GFO, not from some inherent issue with GFO itself.

 

[Sean Clark]

Sean,

Please go back and read the original post from BeanAnimal. He called your statement misleading and not your experience. Let's move forward and get past this so as not to detract from Randy's amazing work, experience and knowledge.

thanks

I'll ask you then... How is my statement misleading?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'll ask you then... How is my statement misleading?

I think that there is some other reason causing some people to have issues with their fish that gets blamed on the lanthanum chloride.
Correlation does not equal causation.

You are using correlation to derive your opinion that LaCl is safe (that is a reasonable observation) yet at the same time indicating that such correlation is invalid when used to explain fish harm. You can't have it both ways.

Moreover, it is an open ended statement in that there are certainly instances that correlation has nothing to do with causation, but that does not mean that this is one of those instances.

Your opinion that LaCl dosing is safe is perfectly reasonable as is the opinion of others that it is not perfectly safe. There are observations and sound reasoning for both opinions, and a somewhat unsettled science as to why (or why not) it is safe or at what dosing levels.

I tried to explain this a few times but you were too busy calling me combative and putting all kinds of words in my mouth. Nobody is attacking you and I was certainly not (I made that clear several times) trying to debate you or prove you wrong. I simply pointed out that your "correlation is not causation" reasoning was somewhat misplaced given the context.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I've been to many talks by Joe Yaiullo of the The Long Island Aquarium at the Brooklyn Aquarium Society. Many times he stated that he uses Lanthanum Chloride on his 20K Reef.

There are "million" fish in there and he is not worried so I figured it's safe if proper technique is used.

If you're just dumping it in the tank and experience cloudiness you're asking for trouble.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I've been to many talks by Joe Yaiullo of the The Long Island Aquarium at the Brooklyn Aquarium Society. Many times he stated that he uses Lanthanum Chloride on his 20K Reef.

There are "million" fish in there and he is not worried so I figured it's safe if proper technique is used.

If you're just dumping it in the tank and experience cloudiness you're asking for trouble.

Joe's method and a conversation with him (back in 2007 or so?) was the very reason that I decided to try Lanthanum...

That said - economy of scale between most systems and his are vastly different. Does that matter? I have no idea, but it is a variable that could be relevant to the amount of free Lanthanum that finds its way into contact with fish.

 

[Thales]

I think reducing phosphate in reefs is over rated, and that folks would have a much better time in the hobby if they didn't chase numbers.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I think reducing phosphate in reefs is over rated, and that folks would have a much better time in the hobby if they didn't chase numbers.

I agree if one goes into extreme to reach very specific range and loses sleep if its not within that very specific range.

Keeping it low is good enough for me.

 

[BZOFIQ]

@Thales Too much Lanthanum Chloride?

 

[Thales]

@Thales Too much Lanthanum Chloride?

Thanks. Had to move providers, so this must be in a crack. Thanks!

 

[jda]

I have seen too many smart and established reefers both have issues and report no issues with fish and LC. I feel that nobody should be posting that they have any idea of what is going on and everybody should at least post a quick warning like Dr. RHF did on page one. We are not talking about some thumb suckers new to the hobby posting about deaths or successes with the neighbor spraying for weeds, hand lotion crashing tanks, etc. It does appear that if you use a sock or some appropriate media to catch the flocculant, then there are minimal reported issues among hobbyists that you can trust. This is just too easy to implement, so why risk it?

As for corals, lowering too fast, too low or riding a roller coaster of stripping water down and then aragonite release back up is usually bad in the long term. Go slow and everything appears to be OK. I helped a local with a tank over 1.0 and he added 2 drops of raw LC (swimming pool stuff) a day down his overflow (which ended up in socks) - it took almost a year for him to get to .05 and nothing was harmed or damaged. Tanks don't just get to 1.0 overnight, so don't expect them to lower any faster.

GFO will bind to an equilibrium with the water and always leave something behind. LC will scavenge all that it can find. I would think that GFO is safer at low numbers than LC. However, I have not tried this.

If you want to keep things that don't care about higher po4 levels, then don't mess with it. There is some awesome self awareness and likely happiness in this. If you do want to keep some corals, sensitive inverts, microfauna, etc. that will suffer or die with higher po4 levels, then you have to do something. It is too bad that more do not understand what they want to keep long term and what is required to keep said things. If I had a softie, LPS tanks with a few stags, I would not chase any numbers at all, but that is not me. I do not QT fish, just long isolation/introduction in real reef tanks, so I rely on microfauna in the sand and rocks to eat/destroy tomonts when they fall off of fish... and these do not do well with higher po4 levels. I like my shrimp, cucumbers, snails, etc. to at least try and reproduce. Some of the acropora that I like to keep don't do well with hither po4 levels either, but I am not ever happy with just the acropora that don't seems to care about po4 at all, of which there are many.

Lastly, I have done some reading and it appears that LC is LC. There is no reason to waste money on a reef-based supplement when you can use swimming pool LC at a fraction of the cost. If anybody has any different information, then please post since I would love to know about it.

 

[jda]

I have done a lot of reading about different forms of phosphorous and what they do for both true coral (skeleton leavers) and softies (which are not "coral" in most science literature and studies). Some are in different languages and hard to follow. While there is not a ton out there, there seems to be some evidence that dino/zoox based "corals" don't have much use for po4 or the orthophosphate that we can test for, but po4 is a poison to all things at differently high levels. They prefer metaphosphate and organically bound phosphorous to get their building blocks.

Why does this matter here? Theory alert... I think that it could explain why GFO can harm some "corals" while LC does not. LC binds po4 directly - if it is not useful, then who cares, right? GFO could also bind other more useful forms and actually keep them away from the coral. Of course, if some super smart scientist knows that GFO does not bind poly/meta phosphate, then this could all be a theory for nothing...

 

[jda]

I mostly only use LC to lower po4 in rocks that I save. I don't like to see good Marshall Island, Fiki, etc. rock get dried out just because of some hair algae or whatever, so I throw it in one of my vats in the dark and use LC, socks and a skimmer on there.

The LC can mess with my hannah ULR at lower levels. Readings are off. It takes a few days for all of the flocculat to disappear, I think, to get a good reading. If you need a few days, then this is enough time for sand/rock to let go of some more phosphate and bring levels back up.

I can assure you that just using LC alone can get me down to 0 ppb of po4 in my rock bins if I wait between the last dose and testing.

I think that not getting below .1 is a testing thing moreso than not actually binding po4 at these levels.

 

[David S]

That's not true. Lanthanum easily takes phosphate to below 0.01 ppm.

Hmmm...in my experience, definitely a barrier when it reaches about 0.10 PPM.
Perhaps it's because I used a proprietary blend (Phosphate RX) and not pure Lanthanam Chloride?
I wouldn't have made the claim if it had not been that two prominent people in the hobby had similar observations.

 

[pixelhustler]

In the past, I have dosed too much, too fast and watched my wrasses hyperventilate for a few hours. It can be dangerous if done haphazardly.

Since then, I’ve dosing lanthanum daily into a reactor and it has been life changing. I use a Kamoer doser and spread it over 24 daily doses directly (through a tee) into a standard reactor with a pleated filter. It keeps my phosphate right where I want it.

@Randy Holmes-Farley where would one acquire the lanthanum you use in your recipe? I currently use Seaklear but I wonder if there’s a cheaper option as I dose ~5ml/day