DIY trace element supplement

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I currently use the Reef Moonshiners program for trace, but I am looking to simplify my daily dosing regimen and combine the 7 daily element supplements into a fewer number of solutions and at concentrations relevant for accurate dosing with a dosing pump (i.e. 1 mL/day).

I would continue using the reef moonshiners program for periodic larger adjustments of individual elements every few months, but would simplify the daily dosing component of the program.

My daily elements are Selenium, Iodine, Chromium, Cobalt, Manganese, Iron, and Vanadium. Here are the formulations I came up with for a 4 component trace supplement covering these elements.

Any and all feedback on the formulations is greatly appreciated!

Solution A: Iodine Only
Purpose: Isolate iodine for stability and accuracy.

Potassium Iodide (KI): 2.1 g/L
Provides ~0.06 ppm iodine per 100 gallons with a 1 mL daily dose.


Solution B: Selenium and Transition Metals (Selenium, Chromium, and Cobalt)
Purpose: Pair selenium with compatible transition metals to ensure stability.

Sodium Selenite (Na₂SeO₃): 0.15 g/L
Provides ~0.002 ppm selenium per 100 gallons with a 1 mL daily dose.

Chromium Chloride Hexahydrate (CrCl₃·6H₂O): 0.375 g/L
Provides ~0.002 ppm chromium per 100 gallons with a 1 mL daily dose.

Cobalt Chloride Hexahydrate (CoCl₂·6H₂O): 0.375 g/L
Provides ~0.002 ppm cobalt per 100 gallons with a 1 mL daily dose.


Solution C: Iron Only
Purpose: Isolate iron due to its reactivity and precipitation risk.

Ferric Citrate (FeC₆H₅O₇): 7.6 g/L
Provides ~0.1 ppm iron per 100 gallons with a 1 mL daily dose.


Solution D: Vanadium and Manganese (Vanadium/Manganese)
Purpose: Pair vanadium and manganese due to their compatibility and stability.

Sodium Metavanadate (NaVO₃): 1 g/L
Provides ~0.002 ppm vanadium per 100 gallons with a 1 mL daily dose.

Manganese Chloride Tetrahydrate (MnCl₂·4H₂O): 25.2 g/L
Provides ~0.1 ppm manganese per 100 gallons with a 1 mL daily dose.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Many of these are here:

 

Reefering1

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Many of these are here:

I think he wants to mix them to simplify daily dosing...(?)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I understand the desire to mix them, but in some cases these are not the forms I recommend and don’t want to go through the math and mixing considerations unless they are final.
 
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I understand the desire to mix them, but in some cases these are not the forms I recommend and don’t want to go through the math and mixing considerations unless they are final.
I would not be mixing the reef moonshiners solutions and would instead be using the raw salt forms and concentrations listed above in my original post. As a chemist myself, I thought the salt selections and choices of which to combine were uniquely suited to providing stability and ease of dosing. So I’m really looking for feedback on my specific selections for these formulations. Ideally from another chemist. ;)

I don’t need my math checked yet, but would appreciate feedback on the compatibility, stability, and counter-ion balance considerations for my 4-part formulation design.

I understand some of these salts are a bit exotic, but I think I should be able to find them all and can use industrial connections if needed.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Trying to predict redox reactions with multiple elements, each of with can have several oxidation states is tricky business, and some may even catalyze reactions of others, but here are my thoughts…

1. Of course the iodide and iron solutions are fine as singletons, but KI and ferrous gluconate (available cheaply from Amazon as a food grade powder) are both fully reduced and may well be combinable. Only concern is whether the iron may catalyze air oxidation of the iodide. It may be fine.

2. Manganese gluconate (same availability as ferrous gluconate) can likely be mixed with either or both in #1 above.

3. Solution B is very hard for me to predict what redox reactions may take place, but I’d just try it and if nothing precipitates after 24 h, I’d go with it. The redox forms may well change in the tank anyway. Selenomethionine be a less redox active selenium form to use if there is a problem.

4 the vanadium ion is in its highest oxidation state, and may possibly convert the manganese to insoluble and black manganese dioxide. Moving the manganese to a combo with ferrous gluconate eliminates that issue.

Overall this is a bit of a chess game possibly requiring a bit of messing around mixing stuff and looking to avoid precipitates.
 

JeremyKnight

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Trying to predict redox reactions with multiple elements, each of with can have several oxidation states is tricky business, and some may even catalyze reactions of others, but here are my thoughts…

1. Of course the iodide and iron solutions are fine as singletons, but KI and ferrous gluconate (available cheaply from Amazon as a food grade powder) are both fully reduced and may well be combinable. Only concern is whether the iron may catalyze air oxidation of the iodide. It may be fine.

2. Manganese gluconate (same availability as ferrous gluconate) can likely be mixed with either or both in #1 above.

3. Solution B is very hard for me to predict what redox reactions may take place, but I’d just try it and if nothing precipitates after 24 h, I’d go with it. The redox forms may well change in the tank anyway. Selenomethionine be a less redox active selenium form to use if there is a problem.

4 the vanadium ion is in its highest oxidation state, and may possibly convert the manganese to insoluble and black manganese dioxide. Moving the manganese to a combo with ferrous gluconate eliminates that issue.

Overall this is a bit of a chess game possibly requiring a bit of messing around mixing stuff and looking to avoid precipitates.
This is the best answer to any question I've seen in a while.... just saying
 

eggie

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My understanding Moonshiners and some other company's do there elements individually, Its because your tank will never consume the same ratio of elements every time.
Some elements are not consume that fast either and others have to be increased from ICP to ICP to reach the desire goal, others would have to be on hold until they reach desire or lower level.
Thats why monthly ICP are made

I find dosing daily is an advantage because it makes me look at my corals and enjoy my reef its like feeding my fish, making sure everything looks good and avoid catastrophe.
 
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Formulator

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This is the best answer to any question I've seen in a while.... just saying
Haha, yes that is Randy. If they awarded PhD’s in reefing he would be the endowed chair of reef chemistry at MIT :face-with-tears-of-joy: . I think he does have a PhD in the sciences but don’t know the details. Regardless, he is highly regarded in the hobby and has made significant contributions. Can’t go wrong taking his advice.
 
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Formulator

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Overall this is a bit of a chess game possibly requiring a bit of messing around mixing stuff and looking to avoid precipitates.
This is called formulation and it was my day job at Pfizer for about 10 years :face-with-tears-of-joy:. I love it!

Thank you much for your review of my list. I will be doing some experiments eventually and will share my findings with the community.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I think he does have a PhD in the sciences but don’t know the details.

lol, thanks.

I have a BA in Chemistry and Biology from Cornell and a PhD in Chemistry from Harvard. :)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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This is called formulation and it was my day job at Pfizer for about 10 years :face-with-tears-of-joy:. I love it!

Thank you much for your review of my list. I will be doing some experiments eventually and will share my findings with the community.

Reminds me of a story on formulation that you will likely understand.

At one point the folks at Genzyme were developing a new version of my drug sevelamer from an amine hydrochloride salt to an ammonium carbonate salt. That had desirable clinical implications, but was "expected" to be a fairly simple swap in tablet manufacturing.

Turned out to not be the case, and and it took quite a long time to get the new tablets properly formulated. They kept splitting and the new tablets needed up being a significant amount larger (of an already large tablet) and they had to reduce the amount of active in it.

The joke on the team was the repeated statements that it would take just two more months more to get it right. When it was done, I seem to recall that the team got baseball cap swag hats that said something like 2 more months on them (I didn't get one, not being on the manufacturing team). lol

Happy reefing. :)
 
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Reminds me of a story on formulation that you will likely understand.

At one point the folks at Genzyme were developing a new version of my drug sevelamer from an amine hydrochloride salt to an ammonium carbonate salt. That had desirable clinical implications, but was "expected" to be a fairly simple swap in tablet manufacturing.

Turned out to not be the case, and and it took quite a long time to get the new tablets properly formulated. They kept splitting and the new tablets needed up being a significant amount larger (of an already large tablet) and they had to reduce the amount of active in it.

The joke on the team was the repeated statements that it would take just two more months more to get it right. When it was done, I seem to recall that the team got baseball cap swag hats that said something like 2 more months on them (I didn't get one, not being on the manufacturing team). lol

Happy reefing. :)

Hahaha… Classic formulation!

Part science, part art, and part just begging the excipients to behave like you thought they would! Guessing the team never looked at ammonium carbonate the same way again :face-with-tears-of-joy:

The hats are hilarious but the team’s self awareness to do something like that is pretty cool. I love having teams like that…

Happy Reefing!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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