Do Dinos create mats like in this picture?

[vetteguy53081]

I was reviewing the Dino Treatment article and the Are You Tired? thread by @mcarroll , and I noticed that many of the pics people were sharing did not have quite the mat structure I am seeing on my rocks.

Right now I am waiting to see if anyone in my local group has a microscope and can help me identify, but in the short term I am just following some of the advice in those two threads.

Based on my tests (PO4 - 0.02, NO3 - 0-5) I am almost 100% sure it's dinos, but other people's pictures have me 2nd guessing.

+1 on cyano. Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

If it worsens, I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 3-5 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the 5 days, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

 

[Lebowski_]

+1 on cyano. Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

If it worsens, I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 3-5 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the 5 days, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

Thanks!

My nutrient levels are at 0.02 PO4, <5 NO3.

For flow, I’ve got a Nero 3 in a 15g, minimum flow at any time is around 40x. I did notice it mainly grows in the lower flow areas, though.

Tank is always RODI only.

Change my water probably a little too often.

All of these things seem to be counter to Cyano and more like Dinos, specifically the nutrient levels.

I mechanically removed much of it, going to continue to try to get my nutrient levels stable for a week or two before I try anything drastic.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Thanks!

My nutrient levels are at 0.02 PO4, <5 NO3.

For flow, I’ve got a Nero 3 in a 15g, minimum flow at any time is around 40x. I did notice it mainly grows in the lower flow areas, though.

Tank is always RODI only.

Change my water probably a little too often.

All of these things seem to be counter to Cyano and more like Dinos, specifically the nutrient levels.

I mechanically removed much of it, going to continue to try to get my nutrient levels stable for a week or two before I try anything drastic.

How long has your tank been running?
There are a lot of things that happen early on that will correct themselves with little intervention (i.e. no chemicals). If the tank is under a year old, continue manual removal and try to wait it out as your tank matures.

 

[Lebowski_]

How long has your tank been running?
There are a lot of things that happen early on that will correct themselves with little intervention (i.e. no chemicals). If the tank is under a year old, continue manual removal and try to wait it out as your tank matures.

Less than a year old. I just keep removing it as you have said, and keeping an eye on the parameters. Lowered my white's intensity but a bit worried about my coral if I keep them there.

Tonight, the cyano/dinos actually came back to the sand bed after cleaning in darkness, after the lights had finished. Surprised me.

I think I will need to get a breeder box for my mushrooms, they are the only coral really being affected right now.

 

[Lebowski_]

There is something I can't wrap my head around:

The common advice I am seeing in many threads where these nuisance algae and bacteria exist and where NO3 and PO4 are at 0 or near it, is to dose or overfeed.

However, if these nuisance pests are exploding due to the tank not having enough competitors, it seems strange to me that we would be dosing nitrates to get them up. I know fast growing algaes use nitrates, but we don't really want that either. So what competition are we trying to feed, to take over the space in the ecosystem currently filled by the nuisance?

Is it anerobic bacteria we're trying to coax into spreading and blooming?

 

[vetteguy53081]

There is something I can't wrap my head around:

The common advice I am seeing in many threads where these nuisance algae and bacteria exist and where NO3 and PO4 are at 0 or near it, is to dose or overfeed.

However, if these nuisance pests are exploding due to the tank not having enough competitors, it seems strange to me that we would be dosing nitrates to get them up. I know fast growing algaes use nitrates, but we don't really want that either. So what competition are we trying to feed, to take over the space in the ecosystem currently filled by the nuisance?

Is it anerobic bacteria we're trying to coax into spreading and blooming?

When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure

 

[Lebowski_]

When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure

That was what my intuition was telling me.

So I have seen several streams of advice, sometimes multiple used:

1. Dose, gets nitrates and phosphates up, don't do water changes or run your skimmer, let film algae grow on the glass, dose bacteria, etc.

2. Continue with normal tank maintenance, wait it out. Maybe dose bacteria (not sold on these bottles of bacteria).

3. Crank the temp to 82/83F (I saw OrionS does this).

4. Use hydrogen peroxide.

5. Black out the tank.

I do not know which one to follow. Right now, I gone with #1. I'm not seeing nitrate or phosphate rise, but I am getting coral growth still.

 

[vetteguy53081]

That was what my intuition was telling me.

So I have seen several streams of advice, sometimes multiple used:

1. Dose, gets nitrates and phosphates up, don't do water changes or run your skimmer, let film algae grow on the glass, dose bacteria, etc.

2. Continue with normal tank maintenance, wait it out. Maybe dose bacteria (not sold on these bottles of bacteria).

3. Crank the temp to 82/83F (I saw OrionS does this).

4. Use hydrogen peroxide.

5. Black out the tank.

I do not know which one to follow. Right now, I gone with #1. I'm not seeing nitrate or phosphate rise, but I am getting coral growth still.

This is often what I recommend and if followed precisely does work:
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15% IF you have light dependant corals) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

 

[Lebowski_]

This is often what I recommend and if followed precisely does work:
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15% IF you have light dependant corals) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

I will give this a try.

I am curious - what does the hydrogen peroxide dosing achieve? I remember from my fw days that it acts an oxidizer or something like that? Is it only lethal for cyano/dinos and not the good bacteria and coral/inverts?

 

[iamacat]

That was what my intuition was telling me.

So I have seen several streams of advice, sometimes multiple used:

1. Dose, gets nitrates and phosphates up, don't do water changes or run your skimmer, let film algae grow on the glass, dose bacteria, etc.

2. Continue with normal tank maintenance, wait it out. Maybe dose bacteria (not sold on these bottles of bacteria).

3. Crank the temp to 82/83F (I saw OrionS does this).

4. Use hydrogen peroxide.

5. Black out the tank.

I do not know which one to follow. Right now, I gone with #1. I'm not seeing nitrate or phosphate rise, but I am getting coral growth still.

I can only speak to my experience which I detailed through my build.

I started with dry rock in a brute with microbacterstartXLM for 3 weeks prior to going in the tank which I then moved all my inhabitants in at once with no issue.

I then DOS’d microbacter7 for then next 6months. I also used Dr Timm’s waste away once about 2wks in. I then used microbacterclean periodically anytime I started to see build up.

I never had any buildup in any noticeable quantity. Had a tiny patch of cyano that stayed for a week.

I also had a geos cryptic reactor showering biolife media balls for the first 8months of the tank.

my goal was to use bacteria to outcompete the nuisance algae and I had great success with that. My filter roller really helped with removing a lot of the undesirable stuff at the start

 

[vetteguy53081]

I will give this a try.

I am curious - what does the hydrogen peroxide dosing achieve? I remember from my fw days that it acts an oxidizer or something like that? Is it only lethal for cyano/dinos and not the good bacteria and coral/inverts?

Its an oxidator and lifts the cells of the dino. Safe in saltwater which is more dense

 

[paragrouper]

I think of cyano as a transitional or intermediate nuisance. When a system is transitioning to/from different nutrient levels they get their chance. Just vacuum them out and let you nutrients stabilize at some reasonable level like 10/.1 or so.

Chemiclean will kill it off for sure, but some other set of microorganisms will spool up quickly to fill the void. Dinos anyone?

This is essentially the path I followed.

I vacuumed them up regularly and maintained weekly water changes. After about 7 weeks they stopped showing up.

 

[ScottB]

That was what my intuition was telling me.

So I have seen several streams of advice, sometimes multiple used:

1. Dose, gets nitrates and phosphates up, don't do water changes or run your skimmer, let film algae grow on the glass, dose bacteria, etc.

2. Continue with normal tank maintenance, wait it out. Maybe dose bacteria (not sold on these bottles of bacteria).

3. Crank the temp to 82/83F (I saw OrionS does this).

4. Use hydrogen peroxide.

5. Black out the tank.

I do not know which one to follow. Right now, I gone with #1. I'm not seeing nitrate or phosphate rise, but I am getting coral growth still.

Sorry if I posted this earlier in your thread, but just in case you had not been through it already. Mosr folks found it helpful for identifying and solving dinos.

A Dinoflagellate Treatment Guide

As the title suggests, this is intended as a short guide on what to do when you suspect dinoflagellates are trying to overtake your system. It is an attempt to boil down the protocols discussed across 11,000 posts in this "Are you Tired" thread...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[woodyarmadillo]

I know you are already overwhelmed but wanted to throw another thing out there. I have not tried this on a problem like this, but I think it’s worth a try. Coral snow and mb7. If it’s cyano, it should help. I was introduced to coral snow about a month ago and I have been using it regularly since. It’s cheap, easy, effective at clarifying water, and there doesn’t appear to be any risks involved with it that we know of. Basically what I do is really get in there and vacuum, scrub, clean everything good until it’s all floating around, then shut the return pump off but leave powerhead on for 20-30 minutes. Your tank will look like a white fog for several hours but the coral snow will help bind detritus and particulates and get them into your filter. If you add MB7 it is particularly effective for cyano. I only had a small amount of cyano but my tank has been crystal clear since I started doing this. If nothing else, it’s a great tool to have in your tool bag. Here’s the article with the info you need:

Extreme Water Clarity and Cyano Eradication, Made Easy!

Edit 10/092023: Note that I have tweaked the formula a bit. You can find an updated video here: Coral Snow Link: Coral Snow Hello all! I have been reefing now for about 25 years, and over those many years I have picked up many tips, tricks, and best habits/practices. From a hobbyist and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Lebowski_]

Sorry if I posted this earlier in your thread, but just in case you had not been through it already. Mosr folks found it helpful for identifying and solving dinos.

A Dinoflagellate Treatment Guide

As the title suggests, this is intended as a short guide on what to do when you suspect dinoflagellates are trying to overtake your system. It is an attempt to boil down the protocols discussed across 11,000 posts in this "Are you Tired" thread...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks! Read through it a few times, but many here think it's cyano. It was a great read, though, have it bookmarked now.

I know you are already overwhelmed but wanted to throw another thing out there. I have not tried this on a problem like this, but I think it’s worth a try. Coral snow and mb7. If it’s cyano, it should help. I was introduced to coral snow about a month ago and I have been using it regularly since. It’s cheap, easy, effective at clarifying water, and there doesn’t appear to be any risks involved with it that we know of. Basically what I do is really get in there and vacuum, scrub, clean everything good until it’s all floating around, then shut the return pump off but leave powerhead on for 20-30 minutes. Your tank will look like a white fog for several hours but the coral snow will help bind detritus and particulates and get them into your filter. If you add MB7 it is particularly effective for cyano. I only had a small amount of cyano but my tank has been crystal clear since I started doing this. If nothing else, it’s a great tool to have in your tool bag. Here’s the article with the info you need:

Extreme Water Clarity and Cyano Eradication, Made Easy!

Edit 10/092023: Note that I have tweaked the formula a bit. You can find an updated video here: Coral Snow Link: Coral Snow Hello all! I have been reefing now for about 25 years, and over those many years I have picked up many tips, tricks, and best habits/practices. From a hobbyist and...

www.reef2reef.com

I will give this a try. Using M7, but not Coral Snow right now. @iamacat also mentioned Coral Snow. I will give it a shot!

Here is my war thread. Definitely seeing a large improvement - no more thick mats, no more bubble underneath the mats, just some strings and a little tuft here and there on the rock where the PAR is highest and flow is lowest.

 

[woodyarmadillo]

Thanks! Read through it a few times, but many here think it's cyano. It was a great read, though, have it bookmarked now.



I will give this a try. Using M7, but not Coral Snow right now. @iamacat also mentioned Coral Snow. I will give it a shot!

Here is my war thread. Definitely seeing a large improvement - no more thick mats, no more bubble underneath the mats, just some strings and a little tuft here and there on the rock where the PAR is highest and flow is lowest.

Wow looking a lot better! I will say I recently stopped being so scared to disrupt my system. On water change day every week, I take everything out of the back sump area and scrub it down, I stir the sand around almost every day. It’s messy at first, but after you get it all out of there, the tank seems to be a lot healthier IMO. There’s different thoughts on this but IMO the cleanliness/algae game changed when I started doing this. I really get in there and blow stuff off, move sand around, vacuum, keep sump spotless and now I do a coral snow treatment after every WC. Coral is happy, bacteria seems great, pod population is doing great. My numbers are actually higher right now, my No3 is up to 20, phos .08 which is on the high side of where I aim for but I’m not concerned. Algae is so low that I had to start feeding my snails nori this week. Had a turbo that ran out of food and just kept hanging out near the top of the glass for days.

 

[Lebowski_]

Wow looking a lot better! I will say I recently stopped being so scared to disrupt my system. On water change day every week, I take everything out of the back sump area and scrub it down, I stir the sand around almost every day. It’s messy at first, but after you get it all out of there, the tank seems to be a lot healthier IMO. There’s different thoughts on this but IMO the cleanliness/algae game changed when I started doing this. I really get in there and blow stuff off, move sand around, vacuum, keep sump spotless and now I do a coral snow treatment after every WC. Coral is happy, bacteria seems great, pod population is doing great. My numbers are actually higher right now, my No3 is up to 20, phos .08 which is on the high side of where I aim for but I’m not concerned. Algae is so low that I had to start feeding my snails nori this week. Had a turbo that ran out of food and just kept hanging out near the top of the glass for days.

Thanks! My first reef mentor used to have the same thoughts - they kept things cleaned and stirred up, and told me to stir up my sandbed every day, and to use my feeding tube to also blow on the LR where it might not be getting a ton of flow.

The link in the article doesn't work, but it looks like it was just straight Calcium Carbonate powder.

Edit: I just realized I follow your 14g penninsula tank thread, looking great.

 

[woodyarmadillo]

Thanks! My first reef mentor used to have the same thoughts - they kept things cleaned and stirred up, and told me to stir up my sandbed every day, and to use my feeding tube to also blow on the LR where it might not be getting a ton of flow.

The link in the article doesn't work, but it looks like it was just straight Calcium Carbonate powder.

Edit: I just realized I follow your 14g penninsula tank thread, looking great.

Oh yup, you are right. I actually just bought that stuff less than a month ago and went onto Amazon and found my order. It was in stock not too long ago but looks like it’s gone now. But yea, just calcium carbonate powder.

Anyways, looks like you’re heading in the right direction! I think you just about got this stuff beat.

Thanks! I’ve got some minor issues and I’m stocked pretty heavy with coral but I can kind of envision the end goal and I like where it’s going.

 

[KK's Reef]

God I’m glad that phase went

It went? So you're saying I should nix my bell bottoms?

 

[ScottB]

It went? So you're saying I should nix my bell bottoms?

Hold on to them. Once we are done with the high waist jeans it will be your time to flourish. Again.