Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[Paul B]

My yellow tang has been with me for over 25 years

Scott, I am totally impressed and I am glad now I know yellow tangs can live that long.

The supermodel expertise has me curious. ;Hilarious

Bleigh, I was a construction foreman Electrician in Manhattan for 40 years and I have seen plenty of Supermodels. I was foreman on the NYC Playboy Club and even have some bunny suits. (they don't fit me But they used to fit my wife just fine.) They even offered her a job.

I worked there for 2 years. We demolished the old club and built a new one. I used to take the "Bunnies" to lunch all the time. They were mostly Broadway actrices and if they had a part for an hour a week, they needed another job. At that time, in the 70s Playboy Bunnies made about $400.00 a week which was much more than electricians and all they did was serve drinks.

I was also foreman on Penthouse Magazine. They built an office uptown in Manhattan. I even worked in The owners house (Bob Guccione) where his wife was afraid of the forest so i had to put lights all around his home.


Then I worked in 3 Victoria Secret photoshoots. I wanted to "help" put their wings on but they are all 7' tall and I couldn't reach their shoulders.

I worked building "Hustler Magazine's" office. That guy is a real pig but it was interesting working there.

For some reason they gave me all the Porno places to work. It was interesting and i would have worked in some places for free, but they insisted in throwing money at me.

Oh I forgot the Miss America Pageant. Another fun place to work.

For some reason I have been surrounded by girls my whole life. And I am not that good looking. But I can dance. ;Bored

When i got drafted in 1969 14 girls took me out to diner. Eventually those girls got married and now that is our crowd as most of us are all still good friends.

There is a story that goes with that but I think I posted it on my thread someplace.

 

[Bleigh]

Scott, I am totally impressed and I am glad now I know yellow tangs can live that long.



Bleigh, I was a construction foreman Electrician in Manhattan for 40 years and I have seen plenty of Supermodels. I was foreman on the NYC Playboy Club and even have some bunny suits. (they don't fit me But they used to fit my wife just fine.) They even offered her a job.

I worked there for 2 years. We demolished the old club and built a new one. I used to take the "Bunnies" to lunch all the time. They were mostly Broadway actrices and if they had a part for an hour a week, they needed another job. At that time, in the 70s Playboy Bunnies made about $400.00 a week which was much more than electricians and all they did was serve drinks.

I was also foreman on Penthouse Magazine. They built an office uptown in Manhattan. I even worked in The owners house (Bob Guccione) where his wife was afraid of the forest so i had to put lights all around his home.


Then I worked in 3 Victoria Secret photoshoots. I wanted to "help" put their wings on but they are all 7' tall and I couldn't reach their shoulders.

I worked building "Hustler Magazine's" office. That guy is a real pig but it was interesting working there.

For some reason they gave me all the Porno places to work. It was interesting and i would have worked in some places for free, but they insisted in throwing money at me.

Oh I forgot the Miss America Pageant. Another fun place to work.

For some reason I have been surrounded by girls my whole life. And I am not that good looking. But I can dance. ;Bored

When i got drafted in 1969 14 girls took me out to diner. Eventually those girls got married and now that is our crowd as most of us are all still good friends.

There is a story that goes with that but I think I posted it on my thread someplace.

I’m sooooo glad I asked for clarification! Glad I caught it!!!

 

[Mark Gray]

Would you buy a fish that looked unhealthy? Seeing in person and observing them makes all the diference.. as it leads to selective purchases.

Oh yes I would as long as I can get him cheap. Bot my tanks have surly had Ick introduced in to them. I bought a yellow tang from Petco that had ick and looked bad bargained with them got him for 10 bucks. Brought him home and went straight into the display. Got him eating and all was good. I did loose him 3 months ago but not due to disease, we had a bad lightning storm and I guess it spooked him I found him on the floor

 

[Paul B]

I’m sooooo glad I asked for clarification! Glad I caught it!!! ❤

WEll, you asked me. In my house I also lived with my wife, Daughter and her Mother for many years.

It seems this thread is coming to an end, with no real end in sight. It's early and I am waiting for my wife to get up so I have to keep posting. I will try to make something up.

We humans are getting very soft. If we get a little flu, cold, sore throat, mononucleosis, phemo thorax, Plague, gun shot wound, Malaria etc, we go to a Doctor. I had an Uncle who died about 90 years old who never went to a doctor, dentist or paid taxes in his entire life and he used to say, "Doctors die too"

I can't argue with that even though he was a very ignorant man, but also very strong.
He worked at the docks in NYC and those days it was very tough. Getting stabbed and killing people was pretty common. But even after getting stabbed numerous times and wrapping the rag around the wound that he used to clean eels with he was never sick. Never got an infection and never took an antibiotic or an aspirin for that matter.

What does this have to do with fish? Well he sold fish but that is not the point. Those people who lived before us (he was born about 1903) were in much better shape than we are. They ate food that was right out of nature and didn't worry if it was clean or USDA inspected.

Of course many of them died but they didn't die from the things we die from today which is caused by too many antibiotics, and not enough real food or most of all bacteria.

His brother got run over by a horse cart and died from tetanus as there was no vaccine.
They died from injuries that they couldn't fix or diseases that they caught from other countries that they didn't have any immunity from.
No one was vaccinated for anything.

As a kid I played in the dirt like all kids did, I also drank water from a lake or stream. A kid would never do that today because he is probably allergic to water. Kids today are allergic to everything. My own Grand Daughter is allergic to seafood, dairy, some meats, beans, peanuts, and probably air.

When I was young I never heard of anyone being allergic to anything. That uncle of mine would walk on the seashore and anything that moved, he would eat, like M&Ms right from the mud.

Our fish are coddled to much. The sea is much different than the air is and fish in the sea are in contact with every infection there is. OK fish from the Caribbean may not be in contact with French Polynesia parasites as I don't know that. But the sea has been mixing since before Bernie Sanders first put on a Speedo and jumped in.

Seawater is an extension of the fishes circulatory system and if it's in the sea, it's in the fish. Fish were built to handle that. We humans are at a loss as we lose much of our ability to fight off infections and now rely on antibiotics and hospitals. WE don't eat food any longer with natural bacteria like we did for millions of years.
Yes of course sometimes that bacteria would kill us, but for the most part, it made us stronger.

If immunity didn't work there would be no people (or fish). Immunity is what keeps my fish, and all fish in the sea from getting sick. Not Prizapro or copper.

All we need to do is strengthen that immune system and not suppress it with anything , especially things like copper and medications. If you feel quarantining is the way to go, do that, but you are not doing your fish any favors.

I was at a picnic a while ago and our Daughter's friend was there with her little girl. The baby was on the grass playing with the dirt and putting it in her mouth. I told her Mother and she said, don't worry, she is just strengthening her immune system. I was shocked because even though I believe that, most people don't get it, especially Millenniums. We were made to eat dirt as most animals do. If my Grand Daughter did more of that, maybe she wouldn't be allergic to everything today.

I doubt our ancestors were allergic to anything except maybe Saber Tooth Tigers or getting stepped on by Woolly Mammoths. They killed small animals and ate them raw with all the bacteria and whatever was in that animals stomach just as our fish do.

For some reason many people who say they lost all their fish because they didn't quarantine, I believe them. If you are not going to keep the fishes immunity it was born with strong, it will die if you just throw it in a tank. Our fish need to be healthy and feeding dry, sterile foods is not going to do it nor is separating that fish from other fish and putting it with PVC elbows and feeding it sterile food.

If we pack a bunch of really healthy people into the same room and force them to live together, sickness can spread easily. All it takes is one person to come in with the flu and they all can get sick. Even if they have really strong and healthy immune systems. Even healthy immune systems can be overwhelmed.

This is true, but humans now live in cities and are mostly sterile and not exposed to all the things fish are exposed to. I rode the New York subway system for most of my life. The wooden hand rails are very shiny like glass from millions of people putting their greasy hands on them. No one cleans them and yet we all didn't die from infection. We New Yorkers have an immunity because we did that every day, but when someone from Oregon comes here, they will probably get sick.

why should that exclude quarantining fish? I'll stick to Humblefish's advice.

Humblefish is a friend of mine and he also agrees with my methods, just ask him.
He teaches quarantining as that is another method and many of the people that go to him for help are Noobs with sick fish because they refused to get their fish in excellent health.

I've lost hundreds in fish in the past for not quarantining.

I am sure you did, you probably should quarantine because your fish are not very healthy and hardly immune.

Somebody make a thread for new keepers where they’re simply guided into disease free fish keeping to any significant improvement above norms. The same passion driving this thread will get tons of entrants into a disease free no qt work thread.

I did: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-other-way-to-run-a-reef-tank-no-quarantine.534274/


I have been writing about this for decades and even wrote a book. I don't know what else to do. Many people just refuse to keep their fish healthy or don't have the time.
This hobby is very easy but we try to make it difficult. It's just human nature to try to do things the simple way like get a medication to cure something rather than to keep the fish strong so it never gets sick in the first place.

Just like this thread, people think "Not Quarantining" means to just buy a fish and throw it into a tank is Russian Roulette and it is even though I don't speak Russian but did go out with a Russian Girl for a few years. The people who do that will end up with dead fish because they don't understand the process of how to keep the fishes immunity up.

OK, I'm done, time to go out for breakfast on the sea shore someplace. We will keep at least ten feet from the water so we don't get infected by those flying ick parasites. My wife doesn't need that and I don't have enough copper and Prizapro to put in her bath tub.

This should be far enough back.

 

[siggy]

 

[Scott.h]

I think 99.99% of tanks have ich and other things in them, so most people are operating like he does. Only when water quality goes down or stress occurs, does it it visibly show itself and start killing things. If you look at what is really required to make sure you don't get ich...it is a lot. A coral tank for incoming inverts and corals that is in a different room from the display, so that they can sit for several months. Another tank in a 3rd room for fish, where they are treated with copper for a few months. Almost no one does it to make sure 100% they are free of disease.

If you start a bare bottom tank with all dry rock and add fish that were quarantined in copper before added, how could that tank have ich?

 

[Bleigh]

WEll, you asked me. In my house I also lived with my wife, Daughter and her Mother for many years.

It seems this thread is coming to an end, with no real end in sight. It's early and I am waiting for my wife to get up so I have to keep posting. I will try to make something up.

We humans are getting very soft. If we get a little flu, cold, sore throat, mononucleosis, phemo thorax, Plague, gun shot wound, Malaria etc, we go to a Doctor. I had an Uncle who died about 90 years old who never went to a doctor, dentist or paid taxes in his entire life and he used to say, "Doctors die too"

I can't argue with that even though he was a very ignorant man, but also very strong.
He worked at the docks in NYC and those days it was very tough. Getting stabbed and killing people was pretty common. But even after getting stabbed numerous times and wrapping the rag around the wound that he used to clean eels with he was never sick. Never got an infection and never took an antibiotic or an aspirin for that matter.

What does this have to do with fish? Well he sold fish but that is not the point. Those people who lived before us (he was born about 1903) were in much better shape than we are. They ate food that was right out of nature and didn't worry if it was clean or USDA inspected.

Of course many of them died but they didn't die from the things we die from today which is caused by too many antibiotics, and not enough real food or most of all bacteria.

His brother got run over by a horse cart and died from tetanus as there was no vaccine.
They died from injuries that they couldn't fix or diseases that they caught from other countries that they didn't have any immunity from.
No one was vaccinated for anything.

As a kid I played in the dirt like all kids did, I also drank water from a lake or stream. A kid would never do that today because he is probably allergic to water. Kids today are allergic to everything. My own Grand Daughter is allergic to seafood, dairy, some meats, beans, peanuts, and probably air.

When I was young I never heard of anyone being allergic to anything. That uncle of mine would walk on the seashore and anything that moved, he would eat, like M&Ms right from the mud.

Our fish are coddled to much. The sea is much different than the air is and fish in the sea are in contact with every infection there is. OK fish from the Caribbean may not be in contact with French Polynesia parasites as I don't know that. But the sea has been mixing since before Bernie Sanders first put on a Speedo and jumped in.

Seawater is an extension of the fishes circulatory system and if it's in the sea, it's in the fish. Fish were built to handle that. We humans are at a loss as we lose much of our ability to fight off infections and now rely on antibiotics and hospitals. WE don't eat food any longer with natural bacteria like we did for millions of years.
Yes of course sometimes that bacteria would kill us, but for the most part, it made us stronger.

If immunity didn't work there would be no people (or fish). Immunity is what keeps my fish, and all fish in the sea from getting sick. Not Prizapro or copper.

All we need to do is strengthen that immune system and not suppress it with anything , especially things like copper and medications. If you feel quarantining is the way to go, do that, but you are not doing your fish any favors.

I was at a picnic a while ago and our Daughter's friend was there with her little girl. The baby was on the grass playing with the dirt and putting it in her mouth. I told her Mother and she said, don't worry, she is just strengthening her immune system. I was shocked because even though I believe that, most people don't get it, especially Millenniums. We were made to eat dirt as most animals do. If my Grand Daughter did more of that, maybe she wouldn't be allergic to everything today.

I doubt our ancestors were allergic to anything except maybe Saber Tooth Tigers or getting stepped on by Woolly Mammoths. They killed small animals and ate them raw with all the bacteria and whatever was in that animals stomach just as our fish do.

For some reason many people who say they lost all their fish because they didn't quarantine, I believe them. If you are not going to keep the fishes immunity it was born with strong, it will die if you just throw it in a tank. Our fish need to be healthy and feeding dry, sterile foods is not going to do it nor is separating that fish from other fish and putting it with PVC elbows and feeding it sterile food.



This is true, but humans now live in cities and are mostly sterile and not exposed to all the things fish are exposed to. I rode the New York subway system for most of my life. The wooden hand rails are very shiny like glass from millions of people putting their greasy hands on them. No one cleans them and yet we all didn't die from infection. We New Yorkers have an immunity because we did that every day, but when someone from Oregon comes here, they will probably get sick.



Humblefish is a friend of mine and he also agrees with my methods, just ask him.
He teaches quarantining as that is another method and many of the people that go to him for help are Noobs with sick fish because they refused to get their fish in excellent health.



I am sure you did, you probably should quarantine because your fish are not very healthy and hardly immune.



I did: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-other-way-to-run-a-reef-tank-no-quarantine.534274/


I have been writing about this for decades and even wrote a book. I don't know what else to do. Many people just refuse to keep their fish healthy or don't have the time.
This hobby is very easy but we try to make it difficult. It's just human nature to try to do things the simple way like get a medication to cure something rather than to keep the fish strong so it never gets sick in the first place.

Just like this thread, people think "Not Quarantining" means to just buy a fish and throw it into a tank is Russian Roulette and it is even though I don't speak Russian but did go out with a Russian Girl for a few years. The people who do that will end up with dead fish because they don't understand the process of how to keep the fishes immunity up.

OK, I'm done, time to go out for breakfast on the sea shore someplace. We will keep at least ten feet from the water so we don't get infected by those flying ick parasites. My wife doesn't need that and I don't have enough copper and Prizapro to put in her bath tub.

This should be far enough back.

I like that you think outside of the box, but I can’t get on board with all that you are saying. I think there’s some things that may be true, but I’m not sure that the anecdote supports your claims. Just because we didn’t hear about things, doesn’t mean things weren’t occurring. Just as one story can’t be used to generalize to the masses. The mortality rate was super high back then. They also died from gun shot wounds, pneumonia, consumption, colds, etc. The birth rate was much higher to compensate for the death rate. I’m not sure that means that the people who didn’t die were stronger.

I’m a firm believer in playing in the dirt, but the fact of the matter is, there are germs there. You can get all kinds of nasties. My son got botulism from soil that was stirred up by a construction site at 4 months old. He wasn’t playing in it at all - just breathed the dust as I was running past with him in the stroller. He was on life support for a month, because it paralyzed his entire body, including his diaphragm and he couldn’t breathe on his own. Botulism was far more prevalent before we had the canning techniques we have now. He would have died in a matter of hours 100 years ago. As many babies did back then.

 

[Elegance Coral]

This thread is moving way to fast for me to keep up.....

This is true, but humans now live in cities and are mostly sterile and not exposed to all the things fish are exposed to. I rode the New York subway system for most of my life. The wooden hand rails are very shiny like glass from millions of people putting their greasy hands on them. No one cleans them and yet we all didn't die from infection. We New Yorkers have an immunity because we did that every day, but when someone from Oregon comes here, they will probably get sick.

Yes. I agree. If I go to Mexico and drink the water I will likely get sick, but the natives don't.

I grew up "old school" in the south. We played in the dirt, ran around bare footed, I've even drank the water out of the Suwanee river, but I'm still here. Even when we did get sick, it didn't stop us. We'd be out there playing in the dirt with our runny noses, and skinned knees, right beside all our friends. Some of my friends still play in the mud. They just have larger and more expensive toys now.

BUT......... There was a time when we didn't even know there was a microbial world. Personal hygiene wasn't very important and life expectancy was pretty short. Now that we have a better understanding of the microbial world, and understand that this is where sickness comes from, we employ methods to combat it. We wash our hands, clean our bathrooms, and bath regularly. We even use antibacterial chemicals like bleach. Now our life expectancy has grown drastically. When we did learn about this, we didn't say, well our bodies can build "immunity" to these things so we'll just keep exposing our children to disease causing microbes and all will be fine. We've done everything we can to limit our exposure to such disease causing microbes.

In the begining of this video, you can see my vlamingi tang when he was younger. I got him when he was the size of a quarter. He went through QT as did all of his tank mates.


Here's the same fish, about a year ago. He's even larger now and just keeps growing.


I've had this fish for about 6 years. Maybe 7??? Personally, I believe this is a very long lived species. Multiple decades. He's not even full grown yet. But, I have no doubts that he will be with me for many more years to come. I'll probably have to leave him to someone in my will. I see no reason for him to die prematurely because he went through QT when he was a juvenile. He seems perfectly healthy and acts more like a puppy than a fish.

He now shares the tank with 14 other fish. Most of them are large and came to me because they outgrew some other hobbyist's tank. In fact, the vlamingi above is the only one I paid for. Most of them went through QT when they went into the original tank, and all of them went through QT when they came to mine. I have an Atlantic blue tang that went through QT when he was a little yellow guy, and again when he came to my tank. Twice. So he's been through QT 3 times. He's a very large fish and perfectly healthy.

I have a female vlamingi that was purchased by another hobbyist at the same time, and size, that I purchased mine. It too went through QT back then. It lived in a tank that was very bacteria loaded though. The fish had, what I consider HALLE, really bad. It went through QT again when it came to me. Now, probably 6 months later, the signs of HALLE are gone, leaving nothing but a couple small scars. She is quite a bit smaller than my male. I'm not sure if that's a result of the environment she came from, or if it's a product of the different sexes. She too is very healthy now though.

I have a cleaner wrasse that's been in captivity for 6 years, and went through QT twice. I honestly didn't expect it to live this long. Especially given the fact that he's wild caught, so I have no idea how old he really is.

I've kept multiple wild caught clowns well past the decade point. Most went through QT. I have no idea how old they actually were. This pair of wild caught maroons I had for more than 15 years, and I'm sure she went senile and died of old age. After all those years together, she killed her boyfriend, then slowly started loosing weight, until she finally passed away. She even looked really really old when she died.


I've never lost a fish, that has been through QT, to illness. I've lost plenty of fish to illness that didn't go through QT though. Unfortunately, I've had other issues that prevented me from keeping fish up into the 20+ year range. Hurricanes, the light company turning off the power to the wrong house in the middle of winter, and the tank busting in the middle of the night. Barring some tragedy like that, I see no evidence to suggest that the fish I have now will not live out their full life expectancy with me. I don't have to worry about things like ich, brook, or velvet, because those organisms don't exist in my tanks.

Peace
EC

 

[Paul B]

but I can’t get on board with all that you are saying.

Ok, but my boat is usually pretty crowded.




Bleigh I iam very sorry to hear about your Son and hope he is well now.
Botulism poisoning is not something people used to get before we started eating canned foods. Now the botulism grows in improperly canned foods and we get a strong dose if we eat that. It is a bacteria that grows in nature but us humans have some immunity to it in the strength it is found in nature. Unfortunately, babies do not, which is why they are not supposed to eat honey which often contains botulism spores which will not hurt healthy adults.

Before we ate canned foods we got botulism from many places as spores but we had immunity from it. We no longer eat dirt or play much in it so I would imagine our immunity to it is lower.

The most cases now of botulism now is from contaminated needles that addicts use. Their immunity is compromised anyway and even people who get Botox shots can get poisoned.
Of course I don't need such shots to plump up my lips or remove wrinkles which I kind of like.

Babies are at risk of dying in mostly poor countries because babies immunity is not very strong, like a fishes is. Years ago we died of mostly wounds because we bleed. Internal injuries will almost always kill us, and fish. We no longer have to fight off predators or chase prey where we could fall down a cliff. We no longer starve to death in the winter as we have refrigeration and we no longer freeze to death because we have "feety Pajamas".

In a war we no longer fight with swords, we kill each other now more humanly

I like that you think outside of the box,

I started an entire thread on that.

Thinking Outside the Box

Thinking outside the box Unfortunately there is this box. It is very comfortable and warm inside the box which is why almost everyone wants to stay and think inside the box. People inside the box all have much of the same ideas and ways of thinking and oddly enough many of the same problems...

www.reef2reef.com

I have a lot of thread to start new ones.

 

[Paul B]

EC, That's because you are a very good aquarist and your fish love you.

 

[TaylorPilot]

If you start a bare bottom tank with all dry rock and add fish that were quarantined in copper before added, how could that tank have ich?

I am saying that the vast majority of people do not go through the process necessary to guarantee that nothing gets through. I see a lot of people saying they will visually inspect for awhile, but a lot of fish can be carriers without showing symptoms.

 

[Elegance Coral]

I am saying that the vast majority of people do not go through the process necessary to guarantee that nothing gets through. I see a lot of people saying they will visually inspect for awhile, but a lot of fish can be carriers without showing symptoms.

Washing our hands won't kill all the germs on them, but we do it anyway. Using those little antibacterial wipes on grocery carts, doesn't kill all the germs on them, but most of us do it anyway. Brushing our teeth won't prevent all cavities, but we do it anyway.............. This could go on for a loooooong time.

Nothing is perfect. Could some ailment make it through QT??? Sure, but that's not evidence to suggest that we shouldn't do it. Anything we can do to limit the possibility of introducing a pathogen, that has the potential to wipe out an entire tank of fish, is a worthwhile endeavor.

There are many different ways to QT. Some more effective than others. All of them are better than no QT at all.

I have about 50 clownfish in one system. If I bring home a new clown, and place it in a holding tank simply for observation, and it dies from brook in three days, I have avoided contaminating the whole system with an ailment that is almost certainly a death sentence.

Peace
EC

 

[Elegance Coral]

EC, That's because you are a very good aquarist and your fish love you.

HAHAHA....... Thanks, but I think they just act like they love me so I'll give them food. Kinda like the wife.

 

[TaylorPilot]

Washing our hands won't kill all the germs on them, but we do it anyway. Using those little antibacterial wipes on grocery carts, doesn't kill all the germs on them, but most of us do it anyway. Brushing our teeth won't prevent all cavities, but we do it anyway.............. This could go on for a loooooong time.

Nothing is perfect. Could some ailment make it through QT??? Sure, but that's not evidence to suggest that we shouldn't do it. Anything we can do to limit the possibility of introducing a pathogen, that has the potential to wipe out an entire tank of fish, is a worthwhile endeavor.

There are many different ways to QT. Some more effective than others. All of them are better than no QT at all.

I have about 50 clownfish in one system. If I bring home a new clown, and place it in a holding tank simply for observation, and it dies from brook in three days, I have avoided contaminating the whole system with an ailment that is almost certainly a death sentence.

Peace
EC

I don't disagree with you on anything you just said. My original post that he was responding to was about Ich. I said that I bet the vast majority of tanks have it because what is required to make sure it doesn't get in is pretty involved. Observation does have many valuable attributes. It would typically allow you to keep fast killers that wipe out whole tanks out. Because the fish in observation would typically die or show symptoms that required treatment. Ich specifically could easily pass through observation because a lot of fish don't show any symptoms.

 

[tdlawdo]

Ok, but my boat is usually pretty crowded.




Bleigh I iam very sorry to hear about your Son and hope he is well now.
Botulism poisoning is not something people used to get before we started eating canned foods. Now the botulism grows in improperly canned foods and we get a strong dose if we eat that. It is a bacteria that grows in nature but us humans have some immunity to it in the strength it is found in nature. Unfortunately, babies do not, which is why they are not supposed to eat honey which often contains botulism spores which will not hurt healthy adults.

Before we ate canned foods we got botulism from many places as spores but we had immunity from it. We no longer eat dirt or play much in it so I would imagine our immunity to it is lower.

The most cases now of botulism now is from contaminated needles that addicts use. Their immunity is compromised anyway and even people who get Botox shots can get poisoned.
Of course I don't need such shots to plump up my lips or remove wrinkles which I kind of like.

not true at all not even close. Most cases are not from needle users at all. That is a very rare cause of a very rare infection. Also, botox shots dont help plump lips they have nothing to do with lip plumping, that is a common misconception from hollywood i imagine. Also, people getting poisoned from botox shots is a stretch. IT "poisons" them in that they have their neruomuscular junction blocked permanently if that is what poisoning is. There are some reactions to the shot or for those that use substandard products.

Also, the life expectancy of humans is longer now than in 1903.

 

[TheKingInYellow]

Whether I agree or not with the method there is some serious disinformation here.

Botulism didn't exist before canning? There were no allergies when you were younger? This is all probably false and anecdotal at best.

 

[Paul B]

Quote:
not true at all not even close. Most cases are not from needle users at all. That is a very rare cause of a very rare infection. Also, botox shots dont help plump lips they have nothing to do with lip plumping, that is a common misconception from hollywood i imagine. Also, people getting poisoned from botox shots is a stretch. IT "poisons" them in that they have their neruomuscular junction blocked permanently if that is what poisoning is. There are some reactions to the shot or for those that use substandard products.

Also, the life expectancy of humans is longer now than in 1903.

I got that on line, I didn't make it up and I am not a botulism expert by any means. I just posted what I read.

What Are the Causes of Botulism? Who Is at Risk?

The CDCTrusted Source reports that 65 percent of botulism cases occur in infants or children younger than 1 year of age. Infant botulism is typically the result of exposure to contaminated soil, or by eating foods that contain botulism spores. Honey and corn syrup are two examples of foods that can have contamination. These spores can grow inside the intestinal tract of infants, releasing the botulism toxin. Older children and adults have natural defenses that prevent the bacteria from growing.
According to the CDCTrusted Source, around 15 percent of botulism cases are foodborne. These can be home-canned foods or commercially canned products that didn’t undergo proper processing. The World Health Organization (WHO)Trusted Source reports that botulism toxin has been found in:

• preserved vegetables with low acid content, such as beets, spinach, mushrooms, and green beans
• canned tuna fish
• fermented, smoked, and salted fish
• meat products, such as ham and sausage

Wound botulism makes up 20 percent of all botulism cases, and is due to botulism spores entering an open wound, according to the CDCTrusted Source. The rate of occurrence for this type of botulism has risen in recent years due to drug use, as the spores are commonly present in heroin and cocaine.
Botulism isn’t passed from person to person. A person must consume the spores or toxin through food, or the toxin must enter a wound, to cause the symptoms of botulism poisoning.

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How Can I Prevent Botulism?

In most cases, botulism is easy to prevent. You can reduce your risk with the following preventative measures:

• Follow proper techniques when canning food at home, ensuring you reach adequate heat and acidic levels.
• Be cautious of any fermented fish or other aquatic game foods.
• Throw away any open or bulging cans of commercially prepared food.
• Refrigerate oils infused with garlic or herbs.
• Potatoes cooked and wrapped in aluminum foil can create an oxygen-free environment where botulism can thrive. Keep these hot or refrigerate immediately.
• Boiling foods for 10 minutes will destroy botulism toxin.

As a rule, you should never feed an infant honey or corn syrup, since these foods may contain Clostridium botulinum spores.

Quote:
Also, the life expectancy of humans is longer now than in 1903.

Yes it is, much longer, but that is due to doctors, hospitals, MRIs, X Rays, Cat scans, drugs, the FDA, etc. Not because our immunity is better today. It is not, it is worse.

If a person today could be transported back to the 1600s or even the 1800s, they would probably not last a week. Just my opinion of course as I am not going back there.

Whether I agree or not with the method there is some serious disinformation here.

Botulism didn't exist before canning? There were no allergies when you were younger? This is all probably false and anecdotal at best.

Who said that? I said:

Before we ate canned foods we got botulism from many places as spores but we had immunity from it. We no longer eat dirt or play much in it so I would imagine our immunity to it is lower.

I also didn't say when I was young no one was allergic to anything, I did say:'

When I was young I never heard of anyone being allergic to anything.

And I didn't. We had peanuts all over the place, Now it seems kids are allergic to everything. In my grand Daughters school in Manhattan half the kids have a food allergy. You can't serve peanuts on planes any more or in schools because so many kids are allergic.

If you want to quote me or contradict me, at least quote what I actually said, not what you think I said or implied. Just read all the words I write, not just some of them. I have been around a long time and am not real stupid.

 

[attilak]

I learned my lesson the hard way and I always thought the same ... fish will fight off any disease in the wild, no treatment so why QT. Well, after one insident of getting a tang - 3 days later got something and wiped out about 5 more fish. It sucked! I invested in a setup to go through a QT process every time I get a new fish. I usually do 4 weeks...

First Week - run QT normal, no med, no copper. Just examine fish, get them to eat, etc.
Second Week - Prazipro treatment, becareful using the recommended dosage. I usually put 1/2 recommended first day, and other half second day.
Third/forth week - copper treatment. I use Copper safe.

I honestly think it is well worth the effort. If you know that the place you get fish from goes through the Q process, then of course you can put fish in your display tank (i.e. TSM corals, great place and always trust).

Attila

 

[Shaun_in_Cali]

I'm only new at this game, so take my comments for what you will.

I have received fish from 3 sources - Online, LFS, and a separate LFS. I haven't quarantined as such - because the first two purchases were a) before I had capacity and b) first entrants. My last purchase I did quarantine, but only for 4 days as an initial observation post LFS (with observation).

My personal view is that you would be naive to believe that any fish purchased from a bulk seller (LFS, online) hasn't seen ich or similar. It stands to reason, as @TaylorPilot has said - the systems that these online stores or even LFS have are processing so many animals, with such throughput, and what you need to do to properly quarantine is so restrictive that they probably have ich in them.

I know that many people have pristine tanks because they follow a thorough quarantine process with medication. More power to them. I - realistically - do not have the ability to do that - my QT is 10G and even with a single fish, and 2x LR from my cycled tank I was alarmed at the Ammonia build up. With my work it would be extremely restrictive to QT for 30 days. I will add that my tank at the moment seems extremely healthy; I am reluctant to add more fish although I know that my system has more capacity to do so.

I have worked in an industry that has taught me however that there are many ways to skin felines... It would seem that with respect to fish tanks @Paul B has found a way to make it work. The reason that immunisation in humans works is because of herd immunity. As soon as herd immunity goes below about 80-95% (depending on the disease) it no longer works.. It stands to reason that if you build a strong herd you will have inherent resistance.

 

[Paul B]

. The reason that immunisation in humans works is because of herd immunity. As soon as herd immunity goes below about 80-95% (depending on the disease) it no longer works.. It stands to reason that if you build a strong herd you will have inherent resistance.

This is interesting, I never heard of Herd Immunity but I would like to know more about it.
What is it?