Dosing oxygen???

[Tigweldpro]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Jeez I feel like I kicked a ball sitting in the gutter.... lol

I just want to know the pros and cons of such oxidators. Is anything proven that they make water clear or even raise o2 levels in reef tanks?
I use them in freshwater but cant tell you why lol

Also what is the catalyst made of it has shiny flecks in it..... copper..? possibly bad

 

[sundog101]

This is just my opinion on the raised O2 levels: unless we are able to find that tanks have significantly different levels than NSW, I don’t see any reason to increase O2. For example, I’m breathing more or less 21% oxygen now and I could be put on around 100% O2. However if my O2 sat is already around 95-100% (where it should be) nothing is going to happen. We have adapted to take the most oxygen out of the air that is available. I would imagine that fish/coral have adapted to efficiently take up O2 from their environments also.

I’m not saying that there are no benefits from using an oxydator, this is just my initial thought when I hear raised O2 levels.

I would also be really interested in its use in QT tanks. Raised O2 for a fish fighting ich or other diseases, I could see some big positives.

 

[Tigweldpro]

Excuse the poor scanner and sideways pic

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Jeez I feel like I kicked a ball sitting in the gutter.... lol

I just want to know the pros and cons of such oxidators. Is anything proven that they make water clear or even raise o2 levels in reef tanks?
I use them in freshwater but cant tell you why lol

Also what is the catalyst made of it has shiny flecks in it..... copper..? possibly bad

While I have not seen O2 data for Oxydator in reef aquaria, I would not be surprised if it is able to raise O2.

The other oxidizing effects are more complicated and have, IMO, pluses or minuses, just as using ozone would. It may, on balance, be more positive than negative, certainly, depending on what is important to you.

It turns out that the light absorbing parts of many organic molecules are easily oxidized to a form that doesn't absorb light. That is why something like ozone can make the water a lot less yellow, even if the total organic load in the water is not reduced. Again, it would not surprise me if the oxydator or direct addition of hydrogen peroxide to an aquarium can achieve at least some of the same effect.

 

[Tigweldpro]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
So are you running to the store to buy one or closing the book on this?

 

[Lasse]

I have done DIY Oxydators for freshwaters (without the ceramic catalyst), I have use peroxide in order to manage oxygen levels during power breakdowns. I have used oxydators with higher concentration peroxide to fight white spot - both fresh and salt water. I have use it as one tool against cyano and so on. For the moment - I use an oxydator in the sump in order to have clear water (no water changes). It’s not the best place if you get a power breakdown and you’re not at home. If I get a power cut - I place the oxidator in the DT and I have a smaller one for my fuge.

I have been using peroxide and UV filtration in large installations (a combined technique developed by a Swedish company for water cleaning and disinfection) I live 1 km from the largest peroxide producer in North Europe and they have been doing jobs and investigations for using peroxide in treatment for the Norwegian Salmo industry. I have been using peroxide in order to have clear water in different experiments at a Science centre – yes I have some experiences of using hydrogen peroxide.

In one occasion I measured the breakdown process in one application – the reason was that I try to find a safe but effective dosing schedule (no fish – no oxydator) I found that it did not breakdown as fast as expected and the guys working with the Norwegian Fish Farmers has seen the same thing. That´s the reason why I think that some peroxide will pass by the ceramics and be effective as a chemical oxidizer out in the aquarium. These findings has also make me be rather careful with the dosing. I use 6 % but because of regulations and freight cost – I have buy 12 % solution the other day.

The work of an oxydator happens in two steps. The catalyst inside the plastic bottle catalyse the breakdown an form oxygen gas. This gas will rise to the top of the upside down bottle and hence press out pure hydrogen peroxide (through a tiny hole) outside the plastic bottle. The catalyst inside the bottle is therefore only involved in the dosing - the oxygen from that process will not enter the aquarium.

Second step - The peroxide, that the oxygen gas in the bottle press out, will pass the ceramic on the outside and according to the manufacture be catalyst to water and Oxygen gas. I´m rather sure that not all hydrogen peroxide will be catalyst during this process and hence it will be active out in the water. Why do I think this – that’s because my DIY “oxydators” did not use any ceramic or outside catalyst at all – the bottle trick (with a catalyst of platina) was only used as a dosing unit of pure peroxide into the water column. And – it works very well that way to – but you have to be careful with the size of the catalyst and the concentration of the peroxide. And you have to tighten the bottle to the bottom of the tank in one or another way because a bottle with more and more oxygen gas will not stay there you put it. This was under my Fresh Water period - in salt water - I have only used the methods including the ceramic.

A warning – if you dilute the hydrogen peroxide – use distillate water or a good RO water. Chlorine in the tap water will do funny things according to reaction time. Believe me – I have tested it

Yes - this is a chemistry forum and I would love to know how it works, how the breakdown process work and which radicals is involved. I´m sure - there is radicals involved - because you cant hold a channel of water clean for days with only oxygen gas produced from hydrogen peroxide - if there has been many thousands hands of children playing in that water during the same time.

In Sweden - we does not like chlorine the way other do. Therefore our pulp industry use a lot of hydrogen peroxide in the bleaching process instead of active chlorine.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Jeez I feel like I kicked a ball sitting in the gutter.... lol

I just want to know the pros and cons of such oxidators. Is anything proven that they make water clear or even raise o2 levels in reef tanks?
I use them in freshwater but cant tell you why lol

Also what is the catalyst made of it has shiny flecks in it..... copper..? possibly bad

If you are looking for some sort of scientific in-depth paper on such I have not read one perhaps if you that interested you could write to Söchting but IMO the rarely answer questions, unfortunately.
Re the Catalyst and the beakers, I am reliably informed they are made from ceramic/clay mixture with a little silver. You don't expect the manufacturer to give too much away now do you.
years ago I have measured O2 levels using a Dupla O2 test kit and measured the increase of O2 when I installed an Oxydator. I don't have access to any analytical laboratory equipment. I also used the white card test to test for yellowing, however, plenty of people report an increase in water clarity when using Oxydators.
I found when using overly high % of peroxide my anemonies would be the first to react negatively and start to turn their insides out, however, they quickly recover providing you don't leave them too long. Apart from that using high strength peroxide (17% plus) I have not observed anything negative and I have not hread of any from the many reefers I know and am in contact with.

 

[Lasse]

This is just my opinion on the raised O2 levels: unless we are able to find that tanks have significantly different levels than NSW, I don’t see any reason to increase O2. For example, I’m breathing more or less 21% oxygen now and I could be put on around 100% O2. However if my O2 sat is already around 95-100% (where it should be) nothing is going to happen. We have adapted to take the most oxygen out of the air that is available. I would imagine that fish/coral have adapted to efficiently take up O2 from their environments also.

I’m not saying that there are no benefits from using an oxydator, this is just my initial thought when I hear raised O2 levels.

I would also be really interested in its use in QT tanks. Raised O2 for a fish fighting ich or other diseases, I could see some big positives.

Things are not always as easy as it looks like. Its true that the corals produce excess oxygen during the photosynthesis but its also true that the consume oxygen during the dark period. If you have a tank with lot of softies, mushrooms and xenia – the consumption of oxygen during the night can be so high that you deplete the whole tank from oxygen. Believe me – it has happen me when I run a 110 litres tank without a skimmer. It’s a well-known problem from planted tanks in the freshwater world. Normally – the skimmer save you during the night.

In saltwater of 26 degree C you have normally at 100 % saturation around 6.8 – 7 ppm free oxygen. Levels below 5 ppm can be sublethal to some fishes (if it is under a prolonged period). Most of our fishes live in environment with a high saturation level – near 100 % saturation. In nature – they are not normally facing low oxygen levels. Bottom dwelling species are mostly more adapted to low oxygen levels but below 4 – 3 ppm – nearly all organisms that use oxygen will have problems. Low oxygen concentration – even just below 100 % saturation – can create a situation off stress – the first (and most important) factor for illness among fishes.

The temperature has a huge importance - 26 degree 100 % saturation C -> 6.8 ppm; 27 degree C -> 6,5 ppm; 28 degree C -> 6,3 ppm (this at normal pressure at the sea level – do you live up in the mountains – more problems )

Nowadays – I will never use a system without a skimmer and not using an oxydator.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
So are you running to the store to buy one or closing the book on this?

I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other, really.

I used ozone for a long time, and I think it unlikely that there are negatives from this that are not also present with ozone.

I do think it clear that some of the effects are not from increased O2, and people should not treat them that way. Reduced yellowing, for example.

Another issue of all oxidizers that I mentioned earlier is speciation if trace elements. Such changes may be beneficial, or not. It might make iron less bioavailable, for example, as it is known that hydrogen peroxide converts more soluble ferrous iron into ferric iron in seawater.

That might sometimes be undesirable and sometimes may not matter at all.

 

[BigJohnny]

Run a CO2 scrubber on your skimmer's air line if you can't get the skimmer air intake outside and if your pH bothers you. It's a simple fix if your house is sealed up tight and there are a lot of people and pets in the house.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-universal-co2-scrubber.html

I had to stop using a co2 scrubber because it raised my ph too much and I had excess precipitation lol, so yea, this is a good route. Way better than skimmer line outside ime

 

[Jmarbeach]

Interesting discussion on PH levels and what can cause a drop in an increase in a Reef tank. Being relatively new to the hobby my efforts to incease PH has been a challenge since I fired up my first aquarium. Prior to experimenting with raising PH I consistently had levels between 7.8 and 8.0. The most commonly known method is to introduce outside air to the skimmer, which very quickly raised it to to 8.0 - 8.2. Wanting to further increase I added a “Bubbler” to my system, which was essentially was a Bubble Magus skimmer pump with short pipe runs to direct the bubbles where I wanted them (supplied with outside air as well). I ran this for about 8 hours a day via my Neptune Apex controller. My PH increased to 8.1 to 8.3 within 24 hours. My next and last modification was not planned and a pleasant surprise. We just upgraded our furnace to a high efficiency model and one of the recommendations was to run the fan 24/7. Within a 24 hour window my PH was increased to 8.25 to 8.45. I then stopped the “Bubbler”, and it lowered to the target 8.2 to 8.4. After many years of experimenting I finally have it solved!

 

[Jmarbeach]

Interesting discussion on PH levels and what can cause a drop in an increase in a Reef tank. Being relatively new to the hobby my efforts to incease PH has been a challenge since I fired up my first aquarium. Prior to experimenting with raising PH I consistently had levels between 7.8 and 8.0. The most commonly known method is to introduce outside air to the skimmer, which very quickly raised it to to 8.0 - 8.2. Wanting to further increase I added a “Bubbler” to my system, which was essentially was a Bubble Magus skimmer pump with short pipe runs to direct the bubbles where I wanted them (supplied with outside air as well). I ran this for about 8 hours a day via my Neptune Apex controller. My PH increased to 8.1 to 8.3 within 24 hours. My next and last modification was not planned and a pleasant surprise. We just upgraded our furnace to a high efficiency model and one of the recommendations was to run the fan 24/7. Within a 24 hour window my PH was increased to 8.25 to 8.45. I then stopped the “Bubbler”, and it lowered to the target 8.2 to 8.4. After many years of experimenting I finally have it solved!

 

[BigJohnny]

Interesting discussion on PH levels and what can cause a drop in an increase in a Reef tank. Being relatively new to the hobby my efforts to incease PH has been a challenge since I fired up my first aquarium. Prior to experimenting with raising PH I consistently had levels between 7.8 and 8.0. The most commonly known method is to introduce outside air to the skimmer, which very quickly raised it to to 8.0 - 8.2. Wanting to further increase I added a “Bubbler” to my system, which was essentially was a Bubble Magus skimmer pump with short pipe runs to direct the bubbles where I wanted them (supplied with outside air as well). I ran this for about 8 hours a day via my Neptune Apex controller. My PH increased to 8.1 to 8.3 within 24 hours. My next and last modification was not planned and a pleasant surprise. We just upgraded our furnace to a high efficiency model and one of the recommendations was to run the fan 24/7. Within a 24 hour window my PH was increased to 8.25 to 8.45. I then stopped the “Bubbler”, and it lowered to the target 8.2 to 8.4. After many years of experimenting I finally have it solved!

Why do they recommend running your fan 24/7? That seems like a lot of wear n tear on the system. I have a new he furnace (installed 2 weeks ago) and was not told to do that. Just curious

 

[Jmarbeach]

Why do they recommend running your fan 24/7? That seems like a lot of wear n tear on the system. I have a new he furnace (installed 2 weeks ago) and was not told to do that. Just curious

Running the fan 24/7 just creates a more stable and consistent comfort level. The new furnace is very quiet and running the fan does produce a “white noise” that will take some getting used to. These high efficiency furnace blowers draw very low current and I will note that I do find comfort level has improved. Now that my aquarium had given the change the thumbs up, I guess it will stay this way. My wife is a conservationist and contested the recommendation, but I had a few quotes done for the new furnace and they all recommended running the fan 24/7.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

deleted

 

[Jmarbeach]

I should also add that the new furnace has a much better air filtration and sterilization system, so running it 24/7 will provide “cleaner air”, which may be useful during flu season. We also have a 12 year parts and labour warranty which helps in the event the blower does wear out, but my experience tells me it is the stop and start that does more damage on motors. I would be curious to know what happens with your aquarium ph levels after doing same for a day?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I should also add that the new furnace has a much better air filtration and sterilization system, so running it 24/7 will provide “cleaner air”, which may be useful during flu season. We also have a 12 year parts and labour warranty which helps in the event the blower does wear out, but my experience tells me it is the stop and start that does more damage on motors. I would be curious to know what happens with your aquarium ph levels after doing same for a day?

The only way a forced air furnace running 24/7 will help pH is if your room with the tank systems in it has higher CO2 than other parts of the house. I can see that helping or hurting pH, depending on where your CO2 sources are.

 

[Jmarbeach]

Just to clarify so folks understand properly, if your furnace sends indoor air up the flue, then it will freshen the air as you suggest and potentially improve pH.

Some high efficiency furnaces are sealed and use only outdoor air that gets sent up the flue. A furnace like that won't freshen the room air.

Our new furnace draws air from inside the mechanical room, but new air is introduced via a hoyme damper that opens during combustion only....

 

[BigJohnny]

Running the fan 24/7 just creates a more stable and consistent comfort level. The new furnace is very quiet and running the fan does produce a “white noise” that will take some getting used to. These high efficiency furnace blowers draw very low current and I will note that I do find comfort level has improved. Now that my aquarium had given the change the thumbs up, I guess it will stay this way. My wife is a conservationist and contested the recommendation, but I had a few quotes done for the new furnace and they all recommended running the fan 24/7.

The other vendors recommended running the fan 24/7 on quotes lol? Interesting. Normally thats something that would come up after installation. I forgot my system has 3 modes, auto/always on/auto circulate. The auto circulate mode turns on the fan when the furnace is on and also every 30 mins for a couple mins when the furnace isn't running, that's probably why no one recommended it to me. Having said that, I've never used it, maybe I should! Glad it's worked for you.

Thanks

 

[Jmarbeach]

Hmmm....would 4 cats do it? Not being an expert with HVAC and the up and down tendencies with PH, let’s say the jury is still out on this. All I can say is I have NEVER hit the 8.4 ph level in the 3 years I have had this tank, so whatever the cause/effect I can’t not like it!