Dosing Trace Elements to Auto Water Change Reservoir

[wmb0003]

Can I add trace element supplements to my Auto Water Change(AWC) new salt reservoir without any ill effects? Will the ultra concentrated new salt water have any compatibility issue or will the trace elements oxidize before the water can be changed out?

Tank info: ~240 total tank volume
AWC NSW reservoir: 44 gallon brute, assume it holds ~40 gallons of water
Daily Changed: ~2 gallons(~1%)
Time to exhaust 40 gallons: ~20 days

I have sporadically dosed Red Sea ABCD trace elements based on ICP test results. So I could add all of those to the reservoir based on Red Sea's recommendations. So, they suggest 4.5ml/day which would be 90ml of each added to the reservoir each time I made new salt water. However, I would probably cut that down by 50-75%(45-65ml) to be on the safe side and not overdose.

Another option is to buy each element in which my ICP recommends I dose, normally in the past I have been low on Iodine, Molybdenum, Vanadium, Zinc, Manganese. I know you have stated before that you had not seen any benefit from dosing Iodine but I think I would like to try it with the minimal cost of the seachem iodide and the ease of adding it to my AWC reservoir, if possible.

What do you think?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I usually add trace to the sump

 

[wmb0003]

I usually add trace to the sump

Thanks for the response! How often are you dosing trace elements and which elements or program?

I have not started dosing yet but when I do, I want to make it as easy as possible. So if the program I use states I need to dose daily, instead of dosing daily, I am trying to see if I can dose 20 days worth to my AWC reservoir that will add it slowly over a 20 day window instead of actually dosing 20 times. Dosing 1 time is easier than 20 times, right? But I am unsure if there is any issues with making this ultra concentrated trace element new salt water or if the elements will oxidize before they reach my tank.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I dose once every 3/4 weeks as I rarely change water
If you’re doing regular water changes, skip trace and dose aminos instead

 

[wmb0003]

Well I have been doing regular 1-2% daily water changes and my ICP tests still come back with certain low trace elements. I am already dosing Reef Energy AB+ that I add to my frozen food that I feed daily.

I am really looking to see if the trace elements can be added to the Auto Water Change Reservoir to make this water really concentrated and add the trace elements through the water changes over a 20 day time.

I would think this method would be more stable than dosing once a month, I am just unsure if there is compatibility issues with the ultra concentrated salt water or if these elements will oxidize before they reach my DT.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Some trace elements may change form when diluted and exposed to air. The new forms may be less bioavailable (say, iodate) or less soluble (say, ferric iron).

 

[wmb0003]

Some trace elements may change form when diluted and exposed to air. The new forms may be less bioavailable (say, iodate) or less soluble (say, ferric iron).

Thanks for the response @Randy Holmes-Farley ! So it sounds like there is no real danger to messing up my tank. The only real issues would be under dosing(due to the less bio-availability), which I am not really concerned with since I am not dosing much now as it is. Another negative could be precipitate in my reservoir which I can monitor and clean as needed. Is that correct? Just wanting to make sure I understand this correctly before I start this process.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the response @Randy Holmes-Farley ! So it sounds like there is no real danger to messing up my tank. The only real issues would be under dosing(due to the less bio-availability), which I am not really concerned with since I am not dosing much now as it is. Another negative could be precipitate in my reservoir which I can monitor and clean as needed. Is that correct? Just wanting to make sure I understand this correctly before I start this process.

That sounds reasonable. Also do not mix in trace elements from different bottles since they may not be compatible.

 

[Gtinnel]

Thanks for the response @Randy Holmes-Farley ! So it sounds like there is no real danger to messing up my tank. The only real issues would be under dosing(due to the less bio-availability), which I am not really concerned with since I am not dosing much now as it is. Another negative could be precipitate in my reservoir which I can monitor and clean as needed. Is that correct? Just wanting to make sure I understand this correctly before I start this process.

When you actually get started adding trace elements this way you should post on the thread how it went. I am getting ready to start dosing trace elements and just adding it to my AWC water would be a great dosing solution if it works without any issues.

 

[wmb0003]

That sounds reasonable. Also do not mix in trace elements from different bottles since they may not be compatible.

I know it is not advised to mix different bottles/elements in small quantities of water, a dosing container for example.

I was hoping since I would be adding it to a larger volume of water(44 gallon brute), I would not have compatibility issues.

I am not sure exactly which program I am going to follow yet, but I think I would like to add(if feasible) the following to my AWC reservoir: iodine(seachem Iodide), Molybdenum, Vanadium, Zinc, Manganese.

Do you know if these would be compatible? Are you aware of a matrix or other information that goes into more details about what is compatible and what is not?

What would happen if they are not compatible? I assume I would not raise the elements I intend to raise by the correct amount. But would the elements still be added but at a lesser efficiency/dose? Would they create a toxic byproduct? Would they change to an inert form that does not help or harm my water?

 

[wmb0003]

When you actually get started adding trace elements this way you should post on the thread how it went. I am getting ready to start dosing trace elements and just adding it to my AWC water would be a great dosing solution if it works without any issues.

Yes, I will update if I start doing it. I was surprised I could not find any information of someone else already doing this method of dosing trace on the forums. I would like to gather more information before I start the process. I did email the reef moonshiners method and they suggested not adding it to the AWC reservoir due to the them oxidizing quickly. I figure that would be easy to test, send off ICP when I first make NSW in AWC reservoir and then send another off when it is almost empty. Just be out $100 for testing which I'm not too keen on.

 

[Gtinnel]

Yes, I will update if I start doing it. I was surprised I could not find any information of someone else already doing this method of dosing trace on the forums. I would like to gather more information before I start the process. I did email the reef moonshiners method and they suggested not adding it to the AWC reservoir due to the them oxidizing quickly. I figure that would be easy to test, send off ICP when I first make NSW in AWC reservoir and then send another off when it is almost empty. Just be out $100 for testing which I'm not too keen on.

In my years of reef keeping I've never dosed trace elements, but I've recently decided to start. I'm going with more of a broad supplement with the tropic marin A and K. I am planning on dosing them with the traditional dosing pumps, but if your idea of adding to the mixing station works well then I will absolutely follow your lead.

 

[wmb0003]

I cannot find anything regarding the compatibility of these trace elements, with the exception of strontium does not mix well with others, so I definitely will not mix that in my AWC reservoir.

I did find the Seachem Trace product which is a supplement containing the following:

Boron (B)	0.028 mg
Cobalt (Co)	0.0003 mg
Copper (Cu)	0.032 mg
Manganese (Mn)	0.085 mg
Molybdenum (Mo)	0.003 mg
Zinc (Zn)	0.169 mg
Rubidium (Rb)	0.00008 mg
Nickel (Ni)	0.00003 mg
Vanadium (V)	0.00002 mg

So I would assume these are compatible based on what compounds are used to make the specific elements. But I don't know the compounds :mad:. I have compiled a list of DIY recipes for the elements I am wanting to dose, but I do not feel comfortable mixing them in my AWC reservoir due to not knowing what is compatible.

My new thought process is to add Seachem reef trace and seachem Iodide to my AWC reservoir, I need to see if these would be compatible though first. For elements that are not in this mixture, I will make 1 time corrections(either with DIY or premade elements) based on ICP analysis.

I will still need to see if these elements will oxidize or not in my reservoir, because if they oxidize before they get to my tank water, this will not help me at all. I think I can see this with the ICP tests, send off one when I make new salt water and dose these supplements and then send off another after ~20 days have passed and the reservoir is almost empty.

@Randy Holmes-Farley ,
I do have one question that you might be able to answer. Based on the above table, is there a way to calculate how much "X" ml of supplement will raise those levels? I am wanting to get a ballpark of how much these elements should be when I dose and then compare to the ICP's when I get them back. Thanks!

 

[wmb0003]

I did find the Seachem Trace product which is a supplement containing the following:

Boron (B)	0.028 mg
Cobalt (Co)	0.0003 mg
Copper (Cu)	0.032 mg
Manganese (Mn)	0.085 mg
Molybdenum (Mo)	0.003 mg
Zinc (Zn)	0.169 mg
Rubidium (Rb)	0.00008 mg
Nickel (Ni)	0.00003 mg
Vanadium (V)	0.00002 mg

I forgot to copy that that table is an amount per 1g. More info can be found here. https://www.seachem.com/reef-trace.php

 

[wmb0003]

Is it as easy as dosing 1ml/1g of the supplement into 1 liter of water and then all those values would be in mg/l. Then I can do the conversions from that? That would just make a weak saturated solution though. For example, boron would be .000028 ug/mL * 1 mL / 378.5 L = 7.4e-8 ug/L. I think I did something wrong.

So lets say I dose 5ml/g of supplement into 1 gallon of water. Using Boron again, 5g *.028mg / 90921 ml= 1.5 e-6 mg/ml or .0015 mg/L. Is that correct?

Sorry, I doubt that is right, its been too long since i have studied this

 

[wmb0003]

Well I kind of let this project go to the wayside but I will provide an update for my current plan. Since all the feedback I have received from multiple vendors/people suggest that the only downside is the elements might not be available by the time the NSW reaches my DT(either by oxidation or become less bioavailable.) So basically the only downside is I may be wasting some money on elements that aren't actually doing anything.

So my plan is to buy all the daily recommended elements from the reef moonshiners method and dose them at a rate of 20x my suggest daily dose(since it take ~20 days to exhaust my reservoir) to my AWC NSW reservoir. I will then send off 2 ICP tests( Triton and Fauna Marin) about an hour or so after I have dosed all the trace elements. Since one company had concerns about some of the elements settling out of the water column, I will keep a powerhead going in the reservoir at all times(I normally shut it off after all my salt is mixed). I will then let my AWC system change out ~2gal per day for 20 days and once all the water is almost exhausted, I will send off 2 more ICP tests and compare the results. It is my hope that all the elements will have about the same levels for all 4 tests. But if not, at least I will have some good data that I can use to make my decision regarding dosing trace elements moving forward.

Elements I plan to dose:

• Rubidium
• Manganese
• Cobalt
• Iron
• Chromium
• Vanadium
• Seachem Iodide
• Liqui-Mud(Reef Moonshiners formula-Antimony, Beryllium, Bismuth, Cerium, Cesium, Copper, Dysprosium, Erbium, Europium, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Holmium, Indium, Iridium, Lutetium, Neodymium, Niobium, Osmium, Palladium, Platinum, Praseodymium, Rhenium, Rhodium, Ruthenium, Samarium, Scandium, Selenium, Tantalum, Tellurium, Terbium, Thulium, Thorium, Tungsten, Ytterbium, Yttrium, Zirconium)

I will provide another update once I actually start this test. Any questions, concerns, suggestions?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I cannot find anything regarding the compatibility of these trace elements, with the exception of strontium does not mix well with others, so I definitely will not mix that in my AWC reservoir.

I did find the Seachem Trace product which is a supplement containing the following:

Boron (B)	0.028 mg
Cobalt (Co)	0.0003 mg
Copper (Cu)	0.032 mg
Manganese (Mn)	0.085 mg
Molybdenum (Mo)	0.003 mg
Zinc (Zn)	0.169 mg
Rubidium (Rb)	0.00008 mg
Nickel (Ni)	0.00003 mg
Vanadium (V)	0.00002 mg

So I would assume these are compatible based on what compounds are used to make the specific elements. But I don't know the compounds :mad:. I have compiled a list of DIY recipes for the elements I am wanting to dose, but I do not feel comfortable mixing them in my AWC reservoir due to not knowing what is compatible.

My new thought process is to add Seachem reef trace and seachem Iodide to my AWC reservoir, I need to see if these would be compatible though first. For elements that are not in this mixture, I will make 1 time corrections(either with DIY or premade elements) based on ICP analysis.

I will still need to see if these elements will oxidize or not in my reservoir, because if they oxidize before they get to my tank water, this will not help me at all. I think I can see this with the ICP tests, send off one when I make new salt water and dose these supplements and then send off another after ~20 days have passed and the reservoir is almost empty.

@Randy Holmes-Farley ,
I do have one question that you might be able to answer. Based on the above table, is there a way to calculate how much "X" ml of supplement will raise those levels? I am wanting to get a ballpark of how much these elements should be when I dose and then compare to the ICP's when I get them back. Thanks!

I'm not sure what you saw about strontium (not a trace element anyway), but it is compatible with most supplements aside from alkalinity. For this perspective, it is exactly like calcium or magnesium.

You certainly can determine how much something with a known amount of a trace element will boost that element in a known volume of water, at least when first added.

 

[wmb0003]

I'm not sure what you saw about strontium (not a trace element anyway), but it is compatible with most supplements aside from alkalinity. For this perspective, it is exactly like calcium or magnesium.

You certainly can determine how much something with a known amount of a trace element will boost that element in a known volume of water, at least when first added.

Thanks for the info Randy, not sure where I read that about strontium, maybe I am confusing it with another element. I did a little more research and it looks like you don't think there is much need to dose strontium so I do not think I will worry too much with this element.

Could you check my math on my earlier post (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...to-water-change-reservoir.873569/post-9604725) and try to steer me in the right direction in how to calculate this? Thanks!

 

[flagg37]

Well I kind of let this project go to the wayside but I will provide an update for my current plan. Since all the feedback I have received from multiple vendors/people suggest that the only downside is the elements might not be available by the time the NSW reaches my DT(either by oxidation or become less bioavailable.) So basically the only downside is I may be wasting some money on elements that aren't actually doing anything.

So my plan is to buy all the daily recommended elements from the reef moonshiners method and dose them at a rate of 20x my suggest daily dose(since it take ~20 days to exhaust my reservoir) to my AWC NSW reservoir. I will then send off 2 ICP tests( Triton and Fauna Marin) about an hour or so after I have dosed all the trace elements. Since one company had concerns about some of the elements settling out of the water column, I will keep a powerhead going in the reservoir at all times(I normally shut it off after all my salt is mixed). I will then let my AWC system change out ~2gal per day for 20 days and once all the water is almost exhausted, I will send off 2 more ICP tests and compare the results. It is my hope that all the elements will have about the same levels for all 4 tests. But if not, at least I will have some good data that I can use to make my decision regarding dosing trace elements moving forward.

Elements I plan to dose:

• Rubidium
• Manganese
• Cobalt
• Iron
• Chromium
• Vanadium
• Seachem Iodide
• Liqui-Mud(Reef Moonshiners formula-Antimony, Beryllium, Bismuth, Cerium, Cesium, Copper, Dysprosium, Erbium, Europium, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Holmium, Indium, Iridium, Lutetium, Neodymium, Niobium, Osmium, Palladium, Platinum, Praseodymium, Rhenium, Rhodium, Ruthenium, Samarium, Scandium, Selenium, Tantalum, Tellurium, Terbium, Thulium, Thorium, Tungsten, Ytterbium, Yttrium, Zirconium)

I will provide another update once I actually start this test. Any questions, concerns, suggestions?

I was just going to recommend checking out moonshiners.

 

[wmb0003]

Finally got everything ready to start this experiment. Below is the quantities I dosed to my 44 gallon brute, I calculated how much to dose based on the reef moonshiners method, so basically took their daily recommendation and multiplied it by 20(since it takes ~20 days to exhaust my AWC reservoir.)
Seachem Iodide: 3.6ml
RM Rubidium: 20ml
RM Manganese: 18.2ml
RM Chromium: 3.6ml
RM Cobalt: 3.6ml
RM Iron: 1.6ml
RM Vanadium: 2.16ml
RM Liqui-Mud- 48ml

I think I probably should have left off the Liqui-Mud as it turned my water into a tea color.

Once I filled the vials for the ICP tests, the color was not as noticeable in the vials themselves.

Packaged up and ready to go out with the mail today. Also shoutout to @SaltwaterAq for selling me a promotional free sample of @Fauna Marin ICP test.

I will update again once I receive the results back from these ICP tests and again when I send off the next batch of samples in ~20 day.


FYI: tagging @Dan_P @taricha @Rick Mathew -saw in another thread y'all were doing a study comparing ICP tests, thought these tests might be able to help.