Dosing Trace Elements to Auto Water Change Reservoir

[taricha]

That'll be an interesting ICP test. "tea colored" water will have a bunch of organics.
The mud seems complicating: I read the description
"Contains along with small amounts of Phosphates, Silicates and natural occurring Amino Acids and Vitamins the following:

Antimony, Beryllium, Bismuth, Cerium, Cesium, Copper, Dysprosium, Erbium, Europium, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Holmium, Indium, Iridium, Lutetium, Neodymium, Niobium, Osmium, Palladium, Platinum, Praseodymium, Rhenium, Rhodium, Ruthenium, Samarium, Scandium, Selenium, Tantalum, Tellurium, Terbium, Thulium, Thorium, Tungsten, Ytterbium, Yttrium, Zirconium"

...but I'd think a natural mud would contain a bunch of more common metals like Fe etc too. If it's not a "natural" mud, then what is the mud mostly? The organics it puts in the water might be complexing with metals as well.

If the RM method is supposed to be about stability and precision, then I don't get the mud part. But oh well.

 

[wmb0003]

Got my first ICP back, See attached Triton results.
Initial thoughts:
Surprised Cobalt and Chromium came back at 0. There is already some Iodine present in IO purple when freshly mixed so I'm not too concerned with its level coming back almost twice my calculated value. Manganese is almost double what I was expecting, while Vanadium is about half. Iron is ok. Looking forward to getting back the other Fauna Marin test to compare. I will update once I get that one back.

Here is the table with rough calculated theoretical values based on what I dosed.

Elements	RMS sugg (in ml)	frequency	Product	ml added to AWC	Conc. ppm	rough theoretical
Iodine/Iodide	0.18	per day	Seachem Iodide	3.6	8000	0.18	mg/l
Rubidium	1	per day	RME	20	1000	0.132	mg/l
Manganese (Classic)	0.91	per day	RME	18.2	100	12	micro g/l
Chromium (Classic)	0.18	per day	RME	3.6	100	2.4	micro g/l
Cobalt (Classic)	0.18	per day	RME	3.6	101	2.4	micro g/l
Iron (Classic)	0.08	per day	RME	1.6	108	1.2	micro g/l
Vanadium	0.108	per day	RME	2.16	1000	15	micro g/l
Liqui-Mud	2.4	per day	RME	48	?	?

 

[Treefer32]

I dose Red Sea A, B, C, D trace elements weekly in my 340 gallon Mixed reef. I don't do water changes often (1-2 large 50% changes a year).

My last ICP test came back great other than iron being a little high. The Red Sea Iron trace element is higher concentration than the other trace elements mixed with it.

I dose all 4 weekly - at a 10:1 ratio. So, 35 ml a week of each trace element. a 500 ml bottle last me close to 6 weeks.

So far, my SPS are doing great, great coloration and great growth!

My nitrates are around 30 and phosphates around .06.
Alk averages: 8.6 - 9.3
Calcium: 525
Magnesium: 1540
PH around 8.1 - 8.3 daily

I have 27-28 fish.

 

[wmb0003]

Got my 2nd ICP back from Fauna Marin. This was submitted at the same time as the triton I posted last week.
Triton: 8 days to process ( Lab in US)
Fauna Marin: 15 days to process (lab in Germany)
Overall I am happy with both labs turn around times.

See attached results.

I will send the 2nd batch of ICP tests next week probably, I am mainly wanting to compare those values to the results on these first 2 ICPs to see if the minor and trace elements deplete over time in my new salt reservoir.

 

[wmb0003]

So I sent off the 2nd batch of the the AWC water now that it is almost completely exhausted. I also sent an ICP for my display to ATI. I dropped the samples off at the post office on Friday and all 3 places delivered yesterday.

One thing to note is the water is completely clear now, no longer tea colored as it was when I first added the reef moonshiners liqui-mud addition. I will wait and share the results once I get both analysis back from Triton and Fauna Marin.

 

[wmb0003]

Well I got everything back pretty quick this time. At the conclusion of my little experiment, I think it leaves me with more questions than answer. Haha.

Overall I am pretty un-impressed with the Triton's ICP. I do not think I will ever use this product again. Their results are widely different where-as Fauna Marin is much closer. The turn-around time is only ~36 hours difference between them and ATI/Fauna Marin this latest time. The first time I sent the Fauna Marin, it was about a week difference. ATI is normally consistently under 10 days for me. Also Triton does not measure down to the tenth or hundredth decimal place for any of their elements(except phosphate), why do they include the decimals on their reports other than the perceived higher accuracy?

Conclusions from test:

• Some elements dropped from the start of the test to the end. This is what some of the expert thought might happen. Example: Iodine, Manganese, Vanadium, Nickel, Iron
• I believe dosing directly to the tank would be more effective than dosing to the AWC new salt reservoir, but I believe there is still some benefit to dosing to AWC NSW reservoir.

Ok so now to the questions that I now ask myself after this experiment:

• Exactly how accurate are ICP testing and should we be dosing based off their results?
  • See attached results, the differences in the tests are pretty vast
• Do corals really need trace elements?
  • The logic behind the corals needing the elements is that the elements are dropping in values over time, thus the corals are consuming them. But it seems the elements drop on their own in sterile salt water with no rock/coral/sand/etc.
• Do Auto Water Change Systems really give us the benefits that we think?
  • If trace elements are reduced from the time we mix up new salt water, the longer the NSW sits in the reservoir the less trace elements it actually boosts to our display tanks, however it is still effective at removing toxins or lowering nutrient levels.

I have attached all reports and then data file I have been using in excel if anyone else wanted to play with the data, its already plugged in for you. I changed the graph on the excel file to show the %RSD of comparing the Fauna Marin ICPs to each other because I believe that is good information.

Hope this information is interesting or helpful to some of you!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure I understand some of your issues/questions. Especially the decimal place issue. More decimal places certainly does not mean more accurate.

Corals definitely need many trace elements, but there is very little data on exactly what levels of each element in any given chemical form is needed for it to not be limiting to growth or health. If they are consuming solid or particulate foods, they may get some trace elements that way too.

"Do Auto Water Change Systems really give us the benefits that we think?"

Obviously it depends on what benefits you think it is providing. lol

I'm not sure how important it is for many trace elements, Foods likely add a lot more. It may be more important to limit accumulation of things as opposed to adding things, but it does both. Fast depleting ions such as iron or manganese are unlikely to be maintained at NSW levels by water changes.

"Overall I am pretty un-impressed with the Triton's ICP. I do not think I will ever use this product again. Their results are widely different where-as Fauna Marin is much closer. "

Closer and different from what? How do you know what is accurate and what is not?

 

[wmb0003]

I'm not sure I understand some of your issues/questions. Especially the decimal place issue. More decimal places certainly does not mean more accurate.

9 = 9.00 but 9.00 looks to be a more precise measurement. I am suggesting the only reason they use decimal places to give the customer a perception of higher precision.

Corals definitely need many trace elements, but there is very little data on exactly what levels of each element in any given chemical form is needed for it to not be limiting to growth or health. If they are consuming solid or particulate foods, they may get some trace elements that way too.

You are correct, It was a poor choice of words on my part in my original post. I am more questioning the need to chase these trace/minor elements via a dosing regime which is what this entire thread is about.

"Do Auto Water Change Systems really give us the benefits that we think?"

Obviously it depends on what benefits you think it is providing. lol

I'm not sure how important it is for many trace elements, Foods likely add a lot more. It may be more important to limit accumulation of things as opposed to adding things, but it does both. Fast depleting ions such as iron or manganese are unlikely to be maintained at NSW levels by water changes.

I am mainly speaking on the replacement of minor/trace elements here. I am aware of the other benefits and I do not plan to take my AWC system offline, but it is good to know that it is not as effective at replacing trace/minor elements as a monthly/ bi-weekly large volume water change.

"Overall I am pretty un-impressed with the Triton's ICP. I do not think I will ever use this product again. Their results are widely different where-as Fauna Marin is much closer. "

Closer and different from what? How do you know what is accurate and what is not?

You are correct, I do not know what is accurate or not but I can compare the differences from the 1st test and 2nd test on the same batch of water. There is a much larger range on the elements for the Triton test than the Fauna Marin test. I am not sure if you read my whole thread but I sent a 4 ICPs off from the same batch of water, 22 days apart. Then compared the results. The results are attached in the previous post if you would like to review the differences. For example, the first triton tested Mg at 1463 and the 2nd tested at 1350, a difference of 113 mg/l, quite a big difference in my opinion. The Fauna Marin tested at 1316 the first time and 1326 the second time, a difference of only 10 mg/l.

 

[Kevinkmk]

Appreciated the work you did. Just curious if your awc container is circulating during that whole two weeks? I’m wondering if it will make any difference.

 

[wmb0003]

Appreciated the work you did. Just curious if your awc container is circulating during that whole two weeks? I’m wondering if it will make any difference.

Yes, the awc container had a pump running 24/7 because seachem suggested that certain elements might separate so I tried to mitigate that by running the pump. But it seems it didn’t work.

I would like to study this topic more because it seems odd to me that element levels reduced so much over a short time. But not really sure where else to go from here.

Since I completed this little experiment, I did switch to dosing seachem reef trace directly to tank every 2 hours or so via dosing head. I haven’t been on this routine very long, so I cannot comment on any noticeable difference yet.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, the awc container had a pump running 24/7 because seachem suggested that certain elements might separate so I tried to mitigate that by running the pump. But it seems it didn’t work.

I would like to study this topic more because it seems odd to me that element levels reduced so much over a short time. But not really sure where else to go from here.

Since I completed this little experiment, I did switch to dosing seachem reef trace directly to tank every 2 hours or so via dosing head. I haven’t been on this routine very long, so I cannot comment on any noticeable difference yet.

Some trace elements such as iron and manganese can deplete very fast.

As to stirring, I would not recommend it. It may encourage oxidation by driving in air. Also, dissolved molecules do not ever settle out under normal gravity. Only in an ultracentrifuge can one drive very large molecules to settle or float.

If the supplement has undissolved solids, those will obviously settle, but are probably of little benefit to dose because they likely don’t dissolve in the tank.

 

[Kevinkmk]

Some trace elements such as iron and manganese can deplete very fast.

As to stirring, I would not recommend it. It may encourage oxidation by driving in air. Also, dissolved molecules do not ever settle out under normal gravity. Only in an ultracentrifuge can one drive very large molecules to settle or float.

If the supplement has undissolved solids, those will obviously settle, but are probably of little benefit to dose because they likely don’t dissolve in the tank.

Make sense. Also is it because op’s elevated level of trace element causing them not stay in the water column? (Excluding something like iron, and manganese which depleted very fast). If oxidation occur that fast, then direct dosing the trace element in aquarium will result some of the trace element is being depleted by oxidation and not being use by the organisms?

also would it because op is running the pump entire time causing the oxidation? I’m thinking mixing the new saltwater for 24 hours with addition macro elements (potassium, strontium, and etc). Then add the trace element (iodine, and etc ) with a 20 minute mixing time. Finally the new saltwater container will closed to prevent air coming in.

 

[GAMGAM]

Are you still doing this. Intuitively this seems like a great way to add trace minerals, but I wonder how the actual execution went.

 

[wmb0003]

Are you still doing this. Intuitively this seems like a great way to add trace minerals, but I wonder how the actual execution went.

Yes, still going strong with it; I have gotten kind of lazy with icp testing so I have been being conservative with dosing amounts as to not overdose anything. I finally got around to doing another icp a few weeks ago I attached it for reference, I suspect the calcium in the icp is incorrect. But overall I am happy with the simplicity of this way of trace supplements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, that attachment comes out too small to read on my computer.

 

[wmb0003]

FWIW, that attachment comes out too small to read on my computer.

Thanks Randy. Trying to do it from my phone, maybe screenshot was not a good idea. Let’s see if this works.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, perfect. Thx.

 

[GAMGAM]

I’m surprised this isn’t talked about more.

The “one thing” that must be achieved in my reef is I can leave for a week and my reef is perfect when I get back (weekly maintenance and that’s it).

The idea of reef moonshiners with daily trace additions is an absolute no go, even trying to add a bunch of versa’s or 2 or 3 DOS pumps to add a small amount of trace seems excessively expensive , but adding a DOS to do auto water changes from a large tote from the basement, with “perfect” water which can be fine tuned with trace using icp and having it dose 15 times a day seems unreal.

Nice work.