Dr. Tim's Ammonia Chloride Dosing Instructions are Wrong.

[Coxey81]

Just thought I would let everyone know that during the effects of tap water on nitrfying bacteria experiment it was confirmed by myself and @sixty_reefer that Dr. Tim's claimed drop size and solution percentage is wrong.

They claim their drop size is .05ml.

I performed four tests of 16 drops measured with a syringe and received an average of 1.05ml. 1 ml twice and 1.1 ml twice.

Sixty_reefer tested this twice and received 1.1ml for 16 drops.

This comes in for an average of .066ml per drop.

Also, they claim the ammonia chloride solution is 4%. Through several stock solutions along with test results we have determined it is actually very close to 6%.

This may not sound like much, but with a couple of plugs into fishlores ammonia calculator you can see how this can lead to large over dosing.

For example, if you want produce a 2ppm solution by adding 4 drops per gallon in a 10 gallon tank per their instructions... you would add 40 drops.

You would actually be dosing 2.66ml instead of the intended 2ml at a 6% instead of 4% solution.

This would lead to 4.25 ppm NH4+NH3 level instead of the intended 2 ppm.

Over twice as high as intended.

I would start with one drop per gallon, test, and increase accordingly.

Aquarium Calculator - Fish Tank Volume, Heater Size, Chiller Size & More!

Aquarium size and volume calculator and many other common conversions. Uses tank dimensions for calculating fish tank size in gallons.

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[Garf]

Just thought I would let everyone know that during the effects of tap water on nitrfying bacteria experiment it was confirmed by myself and @sixty_reefer that Dr. Tim's claimed drop size and solution percentage is wrong.

They claimed their drop size is .05ml.

I performed four tests of 16 drops measured with a syringe and received an average of 1.05ml. 1 ml twice and 1.1 ml twice.

Sixty_reefer tested this twice and received 1.1ml for 16 drops.

This comes in for an average of .066ml per drop.

Also, they claim the ammonia chloride solution is 4%. Through several stock solutions along with test results we have determined it is actually very close to 6%.

This may not sound like much, but with a couple of plugs into fishlores ammonia calculator you can see how this can lead to large over dosing.

For example, if you want produce a 2ppm solution by adding 4 drops per gallon in a 10 gallon tank per their instructions... you would add 40 drops.

You would actually be dosing 2.66ml instead of the intended 2ml at a 6% instead of 4% solution.

This would lead to 4.25 ppm NH4+NH3 level instead of the intended 2 ppm.

Over twice as high as intended.

I would start with one drop per gallon, test, and increase accordingly.

Aquarium Calculator - Fish Tank Volume, Heater Size, Chiller Size & More!

Aquarium size and volume calculator and many other common conversions. Uses tank dimensions for calculating fish tank size in gallons.

www.fishlore.com

I think you’ve just booked yourself another experiment :)

Your gonna have to get another source of ammonia at preferably 4% and ensure your test kit is reading correctly. I do find it odd that they are supplying overstrength ammonia.

Obviously the drop size issue is not really an issue, as far as I can tell.

This could be good ;)

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

You are absolutely correct! I didn’t do a detailed experiment like you but I dosed as instructed and my ammonia level went through the roof. Since then I use much less when dosing. Really strong work on your part. Also, Dr. Tim or whoever is bottling this stuff needs to get their act together and correct it! If he is going to claim he is an expert and has the one and only nitrifying bacteria then all of his products should be in order.

 

[Lyss]

I was wondering about this. I ridiculously overdosed my reef tank when cycling. Same thing happened in my upgraded freshwater tank -- that one I used ADA Amazonia substrate under the sand and forgot that it leaches ammonia until after I'd dosed the Dr. Tim's, so I wasn't sure if it was my mistake or that the suggested dose is wrong.

 

[brandon429]

neat post, helps explain some of the astounding initial levels we see on cycles since 2010 lol

Id heard the recommend was off the mark but had never seen to what degree it was

 

[MnFish1]

I think you’ve just booked yourself another experiment :)

Your gonna have to get another source of ammonia at preferably 4% and ensure your test kit is reading correctly. I do find it odd that they are supplying overstrength ammonia.

Obviously the drop size issue is not really an issue, as far as I can tell.

This could be good ;)

Since the drop size is supposed to be .05 ml and it’s actually .066. That alone will result in a 30 percent or so higher dosage. So, Since the chemical is delivered by drops. The drop size will matter. Right? The only experiment otherwise that needs to be done to determine whether the concentration of ammonia in the bottle is correct would be to accurately measure 0.2 ml of ammonia which should be 4 x .05 ml drops and add to 10 gallons. It it measures higher than 2 ppm. Then the dose in the bottle is higher than stated. PS I believe they have done these?

EDITED - written on phone - so corrected some spelling - sorry

 

[Sesty22]

And now I know why my ammonia was so high. Thank you for the work, and if I ever start a tank this way again hopefully this saves me some time.

 

[LRT]

It is a very good catch for sure. Would explain alot!
I am surprised as I work on a level with certain mix designs for materials in my line of work and its typically the exact opposite from suppliers. We are usually catching suppliers "shorting" mix designs if anything.
I wonder if its a bad batch or just bad mix design or what's going on here. Definetely following along.

 

[Idech]

As I said in the OP’s testing thread, I’ve had the same problem when using Dr Tim’s ammonia. I’ve found that using one drop per gallon is about the right amount.

4 drops gave me off the charts ammonia that stalled my cycle. It was easily fixed with a big water change and things went really well when I used the 1 drop ratio.

I did another cycle a few months later, using 1 drop per gallon and it went perfectly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, folks should not overly rely on any specific measurements of drop size. It is not an especially reproducible way to measure liquids and will vary with how you do it.

Many things impact actual drop sizes:


1. The rate of adding liquid into the drop
2. The exact angle you hold the tip
3. The microscopic cleanliness of the tip (in that it alters the contact angle between the water and the tip material).
4. Dropper size and shape
5. The chemical nature of the solution being dispensed


Here's a typical paper that looks at some of these effects:

https://www.nature.com/articles/eye199917.pdf?origin=ppub

 

[LRT]

FWIW, folks should not overly rely on any specific measurements of drop size. It is not an especially reproducible way to measure liquids and will vary with how you do it.

Many things impact actual drop sizes:


1. The rate of adding liquid into the drop
2. The exact angle you hold the tip
3. The microscopic cleanliness of the tip (in that it alters the contact angle between the water and the tip material).
4. Dropper size and shape
5. The chemical nature of the solution being dispensed


Here's a typical paper that looks at some of these effects:

https://www.nature.com/articles/eye199917.pdf?origin=ppub

Is there a industry standard drop size used? If so any idea on how much standard drop weighs?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is there a industry standard drop size used? If so any idea on how much standard drop weighs?

No, it is very much a function of the tip design and the chemical dispensed from a given tip material.

 

[MnFish1]

No, it is very much a function of the tip design and the chemical dispensed from a given tip material.

So in this instance would you recommend (for example) - using a syringe (like a tb syringe) - and figuring out the concentration of ammonia 1) in the bottle and then 2) adding whatever volume from the syringe to get 2 ppm (or whatever) - and then using that?

Another reason (though not in @Coxey81's or @sixty_reefer 's) people get higher than 'expected' ammonia - can be because they do not have an accurate measurement of water into which they are putting the drops. I.e. a 10 gallon tank with 15 Lbs rock might only hold 8 gallons, etc etc.

 

[Coxey81]

So in this instance would you recommend (for example) - using a syringe (like a tb syringe) - and figuring out the concentration of ammonia 1) in the bottle and then 2) adding whatever volume from the syringe to get 2 ppm (or whatever) - and then using that?

Another reason (though not in @Coxey81's or @sixty_reefer 's) people get higher than 'expected' ammonia - can be because they do not have an accurate measurement of water into which they are putting the drops. I.e. a 10 gallon tank with 15 Lbs rock might only hold 8 gallons, etc etc.

Yes, considering all these factors it's very easy to overdose it by quite a bit.

If you have a syringe I would do what we did and measure 16 or more drops and divide accordingly to find drop size. Then dose with that accordingly

Although our findings were consistent with two bottles. I would not take our findings to be what every bottle of Dr. Tim's is. There may be differences from bottle to bottle.

There is a old R2R thread from 2016 were people saying they were seeing mass overdoses as well. Also saw some mentioned on reddit.

I would either dose a little and test. Or try to get a accurate reading on your drop size and solution percentage using a stock solution and then use fishlore calculator to determine how many milliliters to dose.

 

[mdb_talon]

I would either dose a little and test.

This is pretty much my approach on anything I am dosing to my tank. Start with no more than half of what I think I need and then go from there. I dont rely on the accuracy of the solutions/droppers/etc or on my accuracy of determining actual water volume.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So in this instance would you recommend (for example) - using a syringe (like a tb syringe) - and figuring out the concentration of ammonia 1) in the bottle and then 2) adding whatever volume from the syringe to get 2 ppm (or whatever) - and then using that?

Another reason (though not in @Coxey81's or @sixty_reefer 's) people get higher than 'expected' ammonia - can be because they do not have an accurate measurement of water into which they are putting the drops. I.e. a 10 gallon tank with 15 Lbs rock might only hold 8 gallons, etc etc.

Options in a research lab are volume dispensed from a high quality pipettor or syringe that are not drop size dependent, or weighing the dispensed volume with a high quality scale. We routinely measure volumes of 0.01 ml (10 uL) quite accurately with a 20 uL pipettor, and use a balance for things that do not pipette well (low boiling liquids are a huge issue in pipettes with the vapor pressure increase in the barrel pushing liquid out as soon as you draw any up).

Both can be well out of reach for hobbyists, with a 20 uL pipette costing hundreds of dollars and a high end balance costing much more.

If you have a balance, you can do what Coxey81 did and dispense a large number of drops and weigh the whole mass. That gives a good average drop size. As long as you don't lose count... lol

I once had to measure out trimethylamine that is toxic and boils at 37 degrees F. I set a balance in a hood and dispensed chilled liquid into a beaker from a cylinder. It was boiling in the beaker as I weighed it. lol

 

[MnFish1]

Options in a research lab are volume dispensed from a high quality pipettor or syringe that are not drop size dependent, or weighing the dispensed volume with a high quality scale. We routinely measure volumes of 0.01 ml (10 uL) quite accurately with a 20 uL pipettor, and use a balance for things that do not pipette well (low boiling liquids are a huge issue in pipettes with the vapor pressure increase in the barrel pushing liquid out as soon as you draw any up).

Both can be out of well reach for hobbyists, with a 20 uL pipette costing hundreds of dollars and a high end balance costing much more.

If you have a balance, you can do what Coxey81 did and dispense a large number of drops and weigh the whole mass. That gives a good average drop size. As long as you don't lose count... lol

@Coxey81 @sixty_reefer

It does make one wonder why all test kits/reagents, etc - do not use 'volume' as compared to drops. My guess is that api tests would be more 'accurate' - if they used a small syringe - as compared to 'drops'. And perhaps dr. Tims etc etc as well?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I think a class action lawsuit is in order :).

 

[piranhaman00]

Few drops is all you need

 

[MnFish1]

I think a class action lawsuit is in order :).

Do you know a good lawyer?