Dwarf angel pairs

[Jase4224]

how many of you keep Centropyge’s in pairs? And any tips for pairing?

Cheers

 

[Jesterrace]

The only ones that are really practical to pair are Flame Angels since there is a visible difference between Male and Female Flame Angels. Beyond that you basically have to buy them as a male/female pair if you want to know for sure.

 

[Oshengems]

I did coral beauty and flame on my 75g and sold them now I have a potters and Multibar angel.

Add them at the same time is your best bet acclimate them together so they both go in the tank scare and somewhat friends with each other. That was my plan with the 1st pair the 2nd my potters is very easy going do i risked adding the Multibar also they look so different so far so good

 

[norfolkgarden]

That sharp angle on the bottom fin on angelfish on the left almost makes me think it's a transitioning male.

Bars are different intensity with different fish from different areas. Generally darker/more bars is male. I think the back fin rounded shape is a safer bet of a "still female".
Hawaii, Christmas Island (?), one other place.
Sorry, doing this from memory.

Anyway, they pretty much hate each other even if you have a male and female. :-(
2 males will generally fight to the death over a weeks time. :-(

We have a tiny pair of flames that does the upward spiral mating dance almost every night.
During the day the male chases the female around the 75 gallon tank and it never looks like they are *both* enjoying it.

Both are fat. We added them at the same time and they have been in the tank for about 3 months now.

75 gallon tpank has an insane amount of rock and lots and lots of hiding places where they can chase each other around and through.

 

[Haydn]

The current wisdom is that all Centropyge angels start as females and a dominant fish will undergo an irreversible sex-change to become a breeding male. Therefore if you buy two small fish the chances are that one will start to display dominant behaviour and eventually turn into a functioning male.

Some species of Centropyge, females congregate into small harems with a single male (eg. Flame angels). In others, the fish will form heterosexual pairs.

 

[norfolkgarden]

For an actual pair the safest bet is 1 microscopically tiny and 1 huge.

They all start out tiny and female as far as I know and later transition to male as they grow.

Clown fish start out tiny and male and then transition to female as they grow.

I will never own another dwarf pygmy angelfish again.
That little fish has small dog syndrome from heck and they are worse than damsels.

 

[mattzang]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/flame-angel-pair.433569/

i don't think i've seen any other threads about other dwarfs

 

[pcon]

It is perfectly possible to form and keep pairs of almost any Centropyge. There is some art in the process of forming pairs, and it is not always successful even when given perfect circumstances.

A Crash Course in Dwarf Angelfish Pairing
Let's start with the basics of Angelfish reproduction. All Centropyge are considered protogynous sequential hermaphrodites. Meaning that typically a young angelfish will first be female and later the dominant individual transitions to a male. This transformation is, for the purposes of us aquarists, one directional, Juvenile -> Female -> Male; however the literature is quite clear that bidirectional sex-change is not only possible but has been documented on multiple occasions. The transition from female to male can be completed in as few as 60 days.
Naturally Centropyge live in Pairs or Harems, consisting of 1 Dominant Male and 1-10 Females depending on the species. The females establish a hierarchy with a dominant female and then ranked subordinate females typically based on size. When the dominant male dies the dominant female will transition and take his place. It is generally inadvisable to keep harems of Centropyge in aquariums, as in all but the largest tanks, the stack of aggression knocks off the smallest individuals until 2 remain, or at best they tend to go the way of wrasses and a suddenly subordinate females transition to males and its a fight to the death.

To successfully form a pair there are 2 options, just take a male and a female and throw them together, or add 2 females together and wait for one to transition.

How do I know if my Centropyge is a male or a female?
For at least 9 Centropyge, including the flame angels mentioned/pictured above, that is easy(ish). These Angels have permanent sexual dimorphism: C. ferrugatus, C. flavicaudus, C. heraldi, C. interruptus, C. loriculus, C. potteri, C. resplendens, C. shepardi, and C. tibicen. Meaning, like in the picture above these angels have some differences in appearance between males and females at all times, the exact differences vary from species to species. There are several other species which exhibit temporary sexual dimorphism during spawning and courtship, but by this point it is not super helpful, to our ends. The ideal way to form a pair is with a known female and known male. It is important that, the male be slightly larger than the female, or conflict establishing dominance can occur.

Ok, but I want a pair not on that list, how can I do that?
There are several options; the first of which I will suggest is somewhat unconventional, simply buy them. There is a considerable degree of luck and "secret sauce" to forming centropyge pairs, this is heightened for the non dimorphic species. There are people out there who have already had the resources to learn and make mistakes on someone else's dime. Divers Den, TSM, PIA, Marine Collectors, all offer bonded angel pairs, and many local retailers have some guy on staff who knows how to do it. These people likely have better access to ordering and can simply get enough of one species to find a pair that work out. Fish stores and online retailers are better equipped to pair, observe, separate, and try a different individual, and should they not be able to intervene fast enough wholesale costs are lower to replace the lost individual than at retail.
Otherwise there are 2 schools of thought on pairing non-dimorphic (or all) angels: 2 juveniles, vs 1 small & 1 medium. The 2 juveniles/smalls school of thought suggests that you are trying to maximize chance of 2 females, or minimize the chance of 2 males. By selecting species which have a visually distinguished juvenile stage (i.e. C. flavissima, P. multifasciata), or going small (<2") you can virtually eliminate any chance of getting a male. Also, anecdotally small dwarf angels tend to be more tolerant. The downside is at this size Centropyge can be difficult to keep alive, and for breeders, they may need to wait years for them to begin successfully spawning. The 1 small 1 medium has a higher chance of getting 2 males however has some advantages. The larger angels tend to have better survivability. It keeps the size delta such that one individual is not so large it easily or quickly kills the other as often happens with the "1 microscopically tiny and 1 huge" suggested; it is definitely not a safe idea to put together a huge angelfish with a tiny angelfish. It is debated over if the small+medium is overall faster or simply faster to get to spawning, by the nature of the more mature fish. Proponents of small+medium, suggest that it may be more easy to see aggression, and that there is a lot lower chance of having smooth sailing for a few months and then suddenly two fish that hate each-other, which, from time to time happens with 2 equally sized juveniles. Each option has its downsides, and upsides.

So now I have selected my potential pair what do I do with them? I think it is best to introduce them simultaneously to a completely new environment for the both of them. This is the method that I have had the most success with, though other schools of thought exist. It is ideal for them to be introduced in as large a tank as possible with lots of cover. Some times when placed, into too small a tank, or a tank without enough cover, the pair will only fight. I have had the most success in 125g, 75g, and 65g; I have had issues with very small angels in 20g longs. Once together the pair needs very close observation. Watching for signs of aggression, there will be lots of displays and chasing, but there should not be cornering nor fin damage. Aggression should be decreasing not increasing. If you see something concerning separate the fish, things can go south fast. It also can be helpful to not have any distracting fish in the tank with them, the presence of another angel or a tang can disrupt the pairing process. Though sometimes the introduction of a tang or an angel from another species can help instigate two tolerant individuals to pair, this is an advanced technique and requires special caution. It is imperative to still follow best practice, keep the water quality high, stable parameters, established tank, and feed heavy.

With luck, great suppliers, careful preparation and practice, we can keep pairs of any Centropyge!

 

[Jase4224]

It is perfectly possible to form and keep pairs of almost any Centropyge. There is some art in the process of forming pairs, and it is not always successful even when given perfect circumstances.

A Crash Course in Dwarf Angelfish Pairing
Let's start with the basics of Angelfish reproduction. All Centropyge are considered protogynous sequential hermaphrodites. Meaning that typically a young angelfish will first be female and later the dominant individual transitions to a male. This transformation is, for the purposes of us aquarists, one directional, Juvenile -> Female -> Male; however the literature is quite clear that bidirectional sex-change is not only possible but has been documented on multiple occasions. The transition from female to male can be completed in as few as 60 days.
Naturally Centropyge live in Pairs or Harems, consisting of 1 Dominant Male and 1-10 Females depending on the species. The females establish a hierarchy with a dominant female and then ranked subordinate females typically based on size. When the dominant male dies the dominant female will transition and take his place. It is generally inadvisable to keep harems of Centropyge in aquariums, as in all but the largest tanks, the stack of aggression knocks off the smallest individuals until 2 remain, or at best they tend to go the way of wrasses and a suddenly subordinate females transition to males and its a fight to the death.

To successfully form a pair there are 2 options, just take a male and a female and throw them together, or add 2 females together and wait for one to transition.

How do I know if my Centropyge is a male or a female?
For at least 9 Centropyge, including the flame angels mentioned/pictured above, that is easy(ish). These Angels have permanent sexual dimorphism: C. ferrugatus, C. flavicaudus, C. heraldi, C. interruptus, C. loriculus, C. potteri, C. resplendens, C. shepardi, and C. tibicen. Meaning, like in the picture above these angels have some differences in appearance between males and females at all times, the exact differences vary from species to species. There are several other species which exhibit temporary sexual dimorphism during spawning and courtship, but by this point it is not super helpful, to our ends. The ideal way to form a pair is with a known female and known male. It is important that, the male be slightly larger than the female, or conflict establishing dominance can occur.

Ok, but I want a pair not on that list, how can I do that?
There are several options; the first of which I will suggest is somewhat unconventional, simply buy them. There is a considerable degree of luck and "secret sauce" to forming centropyge pairs, this is heightened for the non dimorphic species. There are people out there who have already had the resources to learn and make mistakes on someone else's dime. Divers Den, TSM, PIA, Marine Collectors, all offer bonded angel pairs, and many local retailers have some guy on staff who knows how to do it. These people likely have better access to ordering and can simply get enough of one species to find a pair that work out. Fish stores and online retailers are better equipped to pair, observe, separate, and try a different individual, and should they not be able to intervene fast enough wholesale costs are lower to replace the lost individual than at retail.
Otherwise there are 2 schools of thought on pairing non-dimorphic (or all) angels: 2 juveniles, vs 1 small & 1 medium. The 2 juveniles/smalls school of thought suggests that you are trying to maximize chance of 2 females, or minimize the chance of 2 males. By selecting species which have a visually distinguished juvenile stage (i.e. C. flavissima, P. multifasciata), or going small (<2") you can virtually eliminate any chance of getting a male. Also, anecdotally small dwarf angels tend to be more tolerant. The downside is at this size Centropyge can be difficult to keep alive, and for breeders, they may need to wait years for them to begin successfully spawning. The 1 small 1 medium has a higher chance of getting 2 males however has some advantages. The larger angels tend to have better survivability. It keeps the size delta such that one individual is not so large it easily or quickly kills the other as often happens with the "1 microscopically tiny and 1 huge" suggested; it is definitely not a safe idea to put together a huge angelfish with a tiny angelfish. It is debated over if the small+medium is overall faster or simply faster to get to spawning, by the nature of the more mature fish. Proponents of small+medium, suggest that it may be more easy to see aggression, and that there is a lot lower chance of having smooth sailing for a few months and then suddenly two fish that hate each-other, which, from time to time happens with 2 equally sized juveniles. Each option has its downsides, and upsides.

So now I have selected my potential pair what do I do with them? I think it is best to introduce them simultaneously to a completely new environment for the both of them. This is the method that I have had the most success with, though other schools of thought exist. It is ideal for them to be introduced in as large a tank as possible with lots of cover. Some times when placed, into too small a tank, or a tank without enough cover, the pair will only fight. I have had the most success in 125g, 75g, and 65g; I have had issues with very small angels in 20g longs. Once together the pair needs very close observation. Watching for signs of aggression, there will be lots of displays and chasing, but there should not be cornering nor fin damage. Aggression should be decreasing not increasing. If you see something concerning separate the fish, things can go south fast. It also can be helpful to not have any distracting fish in the tank with them, the presence of another angel or a tang can disrupt the pairing process. Though sometimes the introduction of a tang or an angel from another species can help instigate two tolerant individuals to pair, this is an advanced technique and requires special caution. It is imperative to still follow best practice, keep the water quality high, stable parameters, established tank, and feed heavy.

With luck, great suppliers, careful preparation and practice, we can keep pairs of any Centropyge!

What a response! Thanks for the education. I think I will most likely give pairing dwarf angels a miss at least until I have more experience with fish in general. I do have quite a bit of experience but that was ten years ago so need to re learn the intricate behaviours of fish before jumping in the deep end. I’d love to have a pair of coral beauties but their safety should come before my wants.

Thanks everyone for their responses and I would still love to read about more of your experiences.

 

[alton]

Great write up pcon. Pairs are nice, I try it with all my angels. Harems are nice too, but when I lost my male flame the larger female killed the smaller one. FWIW the pairing of the large male and female took several weeks, when I added the smaller female it took maybe 30 seconds. Good luck with your adventure

 

[Jase4224]

Great write up pcon. Pairs are nice, I try it with all my angels. Harems are nice too, but when I lost my male flame the larger female killed the smaller one. FWIW the pairing of the large male and female took several weeks, when I added the smaller female it took maybe 30 seconds. Good luck with your adventure

Beautiful reef and those angels look awesome. Out of interest what size is your tank?

 

[Maritimer]

I'd wanted a pair of flames - but lost the female to a bacterial infection in QT. On Black Friday last, I found a couple of smaller flames at a LFS, got them through QT, and added them to the male in the display. Granted that it's early goings yet, and my display is a 220, but so far, so good. I've even seen the three angels traveling through the rockwork together!

~Bruce

 

[OrionN]

As long as you have just one male angel in the tank, and if the tank is big enough, it is really easy to establish a harem of Centropyge angels. If you have a large tank, >180 gal with plenty of hiding space, it is even easier. In large tank, if you happen to added two males, it would eventually work out but there will be a lot of fighting and fin damages.
Normally, you should add the angels at the same time, but it is OK to add smaller ones. I would not a larger angel to a a tank with an establish smaller angel. IMO, this is an invitation for protracted fight for dominance.
Females Centropyge angels may give short chase and nipped at each other but nothing prolong. It is like the two fish meet and the submissive one need to divert to give way to the dominance one or risk a bite. The dominant fish just make a run at the other fish then break off. They don't chase each other around and around the rock which is how two males chase each other.
I don't have much choice of fish here in Corpus Christi. Often I go to the LFS, or Petco, here in corpus and if I see a small flame angel, I would grab her. I often keep her in a small 40 gal breeder refugium which share the same sump as my DT. This is where I get my fish use to captivity condition and food. Once they eats well, I release her into my DT.
I had 5 fish Flame angel harem prior to my hurricane indued tank crash. I am rebuilding my harem and now have three fish that spawn regularly. I have too many fish in the tank as is, so I think I will stop here instead of trying to get two more.
As you may know by now, I don't quarantine my fish. I never have major problem with not QT my fish. I do take QT very seriously but only involve my corals and anemones, not fish.

@Jase4224, good luck with your endeavor. IMHO, keeping a breeding group of fish is very rewarding, especially a brightly graceful fish like Centropyge angels.

 

[Jase4224]

As long as you have just one male angel in the tank, and if the tank is big enough, it is really easy to establish a harem of Centropyge angels. If you have a large tank, >180 gal with plenty of hiding space, it is even easier. In large tank, if you happen to added two males, it would eventually work out but there will be a lot of fighting and fin damages.
Normally, you should add the angels at the same time, but it is OK to add smaller ones. I would not a larger angel to a a tank with an establish smaller angel. IMO, this is an invitation for protracted fight for dominance.
Females Centropyge angels may give short chase and nipped at each other but nothing prolong. It is like the two fish meet and the submissive one need to divert to give way to the dominance one or risk a bite. The dominant fish just make a run at the other fish then break off. They don't chase each other around and around the rock which is how two males chase each other.
I don't have much choice of fish here in Corpus Christi. Often I go to the LFS, or Petco, here in corpus and if I see a small flame angel, I would grab her. I often keep her in a small 40 gal breeder refugium which share the same sump as my DT. This is where I get my fish use to captivity condition and food. Once they eats well, I release her into my DT.
I had 5 fish Flame angel harem prior to my hurricane indued tank crash. I am rebuilding my harem and now have three fish that spawn regularly. I have too many fish in the tank as is, so I think I will stop here instead of trying to get two more.
As you may know by now, I don't quarantine my fish. I never have major problem with not QT my fish. I do take QT very seriously but only involve my corals and anemones, not fish.

@Jase4224, good luck with your endeavor. IMHO, keeping a breeding group of fish is very rewarding, especially a brightly graceful fish like Centropyge angels.

Thanks for the info. My tank is 160gal and not a huge amount of rocks so not sure if I have the best setup to attempt centropyge but if I see a pair at my LFS then I may purchase. I absolutely plan to have a pair of Watanabei angels but being sexually dimorphic this is much easier, especially as they are often sold as a pair.

Come to think of it, one of my LFS actually collects their stock so might be able to find me a pair?

 

[ca1ore]

I'm seriously thinking about adding two small females to my current flame pair.

 

[OrionN]

ca1ore,
At the very least add 1 more. The reason for this is that it is a lot neater to see a male Flame angel try to court two females and bring them to spawn one right after the other. After seeing both, IMO, this is a clear case of 1+1=2, but 2+1=7

 

[pcon]

What a response! Thanks for the education. I think I will most likely give pairing dwarf angels a miss at least until I have more experience with fish in general. I do have quite a bit of experience but that was ten years ago so need to re learn the intricate behaviours of fish before jumping in the deep end. I’d love to have a pair of coral beauties but their safety should come before my wants.

Thanks everyone, I couldn't sleep last night so this helped pass the time. It's never a bad idea to take a more conservative option. Coral beauties luckily are one of the easier ones to pair, especially with the advent of Biota Captive bred ones. If you don't intend to actually raise the offspring you could easily get 2 babies from them and it will likely work out. My main problems are being able to get in fish of the correct sizes consistently or in sufficient quantity to attempt paring. Coral beauties sort of eliminate this hurdle.

Certainly harems are possible in captivity, and perhaps in the future we will see harems like we see paring them now. I have been burned by a couple attempts with Xiphypops, though perhaps their aggression is so high that other groups in the family are better suited to captive harems. I also have had friends and clients who had issues, with harems of others species, in the long run 3+ years. At the beginning of this thread people were saying it was impractical to keep anything but flames as pairs, and look how far we have come in just one day. So the conservative advice may change with more of us successfully keeping, pairs and pushing the envelope. I think for now it is safest advice is that for the vast majority of aquarists, its best not to try, and for a few of us angelfish nerds with big tanks, try a harem at your own risk.

 

[Jase4224]

I wander if I can get biota fish shipped to Oz.. a trio of coral beauties would be lovely.

 

[alton]

Jase4224 the tank in the picture was a 300DD, I have since downsized to a 180 and only have a pair in it.

 

[ca1ore]

ca1ore,
At the very least add 1 more. The reason for this is that it is a lot neater to see a male Flame angel try to court two females and bring them to spawn one right after the other. After seeing both, IMO, this is a clear case of 1+1=2, but 2+1=7

Haven't' seen any small ones lately though …..