Flame Angel Pair?

ca1ore · Aug 7, 2018

Have a 2 1/2" flame in my main tank (450 gallons) and a 3" in my frag tank (was a 'rescue'). I'd like to move it up. I have seen no reliable way to sex these fish, so unsure if 2 dudes or not. I'll use the acclimation box of course. Curious for any wisdom from folks that have fine this? Minh?

Tft12 · Aug 7, 2018

450 gallons sounds like a lot of space and I would expect things to settle down well enough if they are both male, as long as you have enough places for the new fish to hide to get a rest from the extremely likely chasing. I would expect two solitary somewhat older dwarf angels to have each transitioned to male without another male around to suppress the transition, being protogynous hermaphrodites.

From my experience mixing dwarfs in this way, my 300 gallon has 5 dwarfs, I would expect you to be fine as long as the new guy has enough cover to lose the established fish while the established fish is doing some chasing and getting used to another male in the system. In my 180 I mixed a Multicolor angel that I thought was male with a pair of Potter's angels. This didn't go well because the 180 basically just has long linear swimming paths so the Multicolor couldn't sufficiently lose its chaser whenever one of the Potter's decided to go after it. I left them together for a number of months and last week moved the Multicolor to a separate system because it became clear that he wasn't happy - no visible fin damage but he was pacing a lot and it seemed like the pacing was because he wanted to escape (in the new system no pacing). To me it's all about the aquascape of your 450. In my 300 the rocks happen to be arranged in a way that the fish can very easily ditch a chaser and the low fish in the hierarchy, a coral beauty, doesn't seem stressed at all. A chase lasts half a second before the CB vanishes and is happily browsing rock 300 gallons away from the chaser. Will a chased flame be able to lose an aggressor?

1) Your new-comer is a little bigger. Good.
2) You have a very big tank. Good.
3) Your new addition is already very used to captivity. Good.
4) I would assume both male. Not good.
5) I'm assuming the 2.5" fish has been in the 450 a long time. Not good.

Overall, I think it will probably eventually work out well. One piece of advice I would give is to make sure that your new addition has lots of weight on it before placing it in the 450. I would feed it very heavily for a couple months. I like pellets to get extra weight on fish in addition to the usual frozen and nori. The purpose of fattening it up is buy the new fish plenty of time after introduction in case your established fish doesn't let the new guy eat for awhile...On the other hand you could try to rush introducing them to each other with the expectation that one is currently female and if you get them together quickly enough one can suppress the transition of the other, but I really don't think this is likely to be the situation that you are dealing with.

eatbreakfast · Aug 7, 2018

@OrionN

I would think it would be ok in that size tank and using an acclimation box.

OrionN · Aug 7, 2018

Likely both are males but here are some images to help you sexing them. The shape of the dorsal and ventral fins is the key here. Coloration and size are unreliable. In a 450 two males will fight but I think they they will be fine. I did not experienced reversal sex change from male to female with my Flame Angels, but know of a friend who had 4 Flame angels in a 120, two of which were males. They fought and eventually one turned back to female and were fine after several months.

one of my female Flame

Male

Female

alton · Aug 7, 2018

Orion is the king of making Flame Angel Pairs! Following his rules I created a pair but since the female was larger than the male it took few months of aggression till they swapped sexes. I used a 40 gallon with a ton of liverock so the smaller male had plenty of hiding places and getaway crevices.

Tft12 · Aug 7, 2018

alton said:
swapped sexes

Does this happen? Or were both just females initially? Or are they two males that have come to tolerate each other? Do they spawn nightly?

ca1ore · Aug 7, 2018

I think they are both males. FWIW, while 450 seems like a lot, if two fish decide they hate each other, it might as well be 10.

OrionN · Aug 7, 2018

They are not really agressive. They will chase and pick at each other until one change sex. Although no scientific literature indicated reversal of sex in these angels, I got multiple reliable sources that Flame Angels can revert from male to female.
If you really don’t want to take chance, you will just have to trade one of the male in to get a female.

Jesterrace · Aug 7, 2018

450 should be enough for 2 Flames to coexist. Definitely use an acclimation box though.

ca1ore · Aug 7, 2018

Yes, I am going to try it .... just curious whether there was anything I had not considered. Plus I have a potters to add and would like to deflect aggression a bit.

alton · Aug 7, 2018

Tft12 said:
Does this happen? Or were both just females initially? Or are they two males that have come to tolerate each other? Do they spawn nightly?

Yes I sent pictures of the two to Orion to confirm the smaller was a male and the larger was female. They spawn right before the lights go out.
And good luck with your pairing.

Tft12 · Aug 8, 2018

Cool. I didn't know that sex switching back was possible with dwarfs.

User1 · Aug 9, 2018

I was going to suggest a search because I've read elsewhere that there is a high probability of sexing them. I see the person responded here with great info

BTW nice comment on the 450 seems big but if two fish hate each other it might as well be 10...heck of a reality check, isn't it? How is the Gem doing btw?

OrionN · Aug 17, 2018

@ca1ore
So how did they do together in your 450.

ca1ore · Oct 9, 2018

I added the second flame about three weeks ago (maybe four). Some initial skirmishing, but nothing too damaging. They've largely settled in to an occasional chase or two, with the newcomer being the chaser just as often as the original. I still think they are both males - minh, would be interested if you'd have a view on that even though it's not a great picture. No sign of any spawning behavior.

Jesterrace · Oct 9, 2018

They will need to settle in and be comfortable with each other long before any potential gender switch could happen and both of those definitely look male to me.

ca1ore · Oct 9, 2018

Plus I have not read that a male will even change to female.

OrionN · Oct 9, 2018

Keep us update. Friends told me that their male change sex and then spawned after a few months. It would be great if you can take closeup picture of the two angels now, then in 6 months. You will need a telephoto lens to do this well.