Effects of tap water on Nitrifying during Rip-Clean method: Experiment

[Coxey81]

The OP was smart either way in this regard. The question here is does rinsing rock affect nitrification right? Well - the first part of the study will prove whether he has enough surface area or not. If in the first part - that rock processes ammonia - there is enough surface area - if it does not - then there is not.

The comments about needing 5 x the surface area to do a 'rip clean' to me do not make sense.

Yes, I'm performing the first part to make sure there is enough bacteria present to process the ammonia in the first place. That was the point of it more than proving you can instant cycle a tank with rock and biomedia.

If I had gone straight to the tap water we would never know if there was sufficient bacteria present to begin with.

 

[Little c big D]

This is some Hatfields and McCoys schtuff right here.

I find it fascinating, if not a bit baffling, at how defensive everyone gets about this on both sides.

Following along.

The issue really is, it's all posturing and no real information at this point. These threads all end up with everyone trashing each other and nothing is learned. I asked a legitimate question several times and couldn't get an answer. Now we have mostly destroyed someone's thread with all the bickering. It's a shame really

 

[Rmckoy]

This is some Hatfields and McCoys schtuff right here.

I find it fascinating, if not a bit baffling, at how defensive everyone gets about this on both sides.

Following along.

It’s sad we all can’t be adults .
answer a few unknown questions and move on

 

[sixty_reefer]

This is some Hatfields and McCoys schtuff right here.

I find it fascinating, if not a bit baffling, at how defensive everyone gets about this on both sides.

Following along.

Agree both sides are so defensive that they missing so many important variables on both sides for a successful thread.

 

[brandon429]

The test isn't setup to handle or account for or exclude misreads, there's no starting measure to show how this kit reads on the water sample before the test dose. the test dose is too high for that kit, but not for digital kits

too many preps are skipped here for the test to be valid, the test continues testing my method but not being arranged in a fair manner to have insight on the method.

those answers I skipped above didnt change the major confounds in the test as its assembled. You would need to use the same degree of rocks we use in skip cycle works, that's a tenth of the degree we use, its a quarter of what Ninja used in his tap water rinse rip clean. its one tenth of the amount of rocks amalee used in her tap water rinse 75 gallon.

the test doesnt seem invalid though to the cheering group, I get that.

In the end your collective responses can be summarized as: you each think a dead biofilter can support someone's full reef after we reassemble it.

Both Ninja's biofilter and Amalee's were clearly dead due to tap you're about to show with a misaligned test, and their whole reefs were then built on uncycled system, carrying fish and feed from there on out is that right



that you guys accept validity here and unfactor literally eight years of collected results using actual reefs I find lol bigtime, its a total safezone where notbody has to ever do any real prediction and follow though.

 

[Rmckoy]

The issue really is, it's all posturing and no real information at this point. These threads all end up with everyone trashing each other and nothing is learned. I asked a legitimate question several times and couldn't get an answer. Now we have mostly destroyed someone's thread with all the bickering. It's a shame really

This thread was i believe was to test the theories posted on the other thread

 

[Rmckoy]

The test isn't setup to handle or account for or exclude misreads, there's no starting measure to show how this kit reads on the water sample before the test dose. the test dose is too high for that kit, but not for digital kits

too many preps are skipped here for the test to be valid, the test continues testing my method but not being arranged in a fair manner to have insight on the method.

those answers I skipped above didnt change the major confounds in the test as its assembled. You would need to use the same degree of rocks we use in skip cycle works, that's a tenth of the degree we use, its a quarter of what Ninja used in his tap water rinse rip clean. its one tenth of the amount of rocks amalee used in her tap water rinse 75 gallon.

the test doesnt seem invalid though to the cheering group, I get that.

In the end your collective responses can be summarized as: you each think a dead biofilter can support someone's full reef after we reassemble it.

So let’s start here ….

what happens if we remove all live rocks from our tank to scrub in freshwater ?

does it kill nitrifying bacteria ?

 

[Lasse]

I really just don't want to do another round. I have a job, wife, and kids. I'm not a scientist. If others would like to perform more I would love to see the results. I thought about doing it with fresh rodi and then with tap water.

If the majority would rather see me do it with room temp water or rodi, etc. I'll go that route instead. The hot tap water was chosen because it's what @jedi119 did when rip cleaned his tank I was told.

Do it the way you planned than - do not use RO water - that can change the whole set up - I can explain if you ask for an explanation

Agree both sides are so defensive that they missing so many important variables on both sides for a successful thread.

I do not agree in this.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[FEED ME ZOAS]

The test isn't setup to handle or account for or exclude misreads, there's no starting measure to show how this kit reads on the water sample before the test dose. the test dose is too high for that kit, but not for digital kits

too many preps are skipped here for the test to be valid, those answers above didnt change the major confounds in the test as its assembled. You would need to use the same degree of rocks we use in skip cycle works, that's a tenth of the degree we use, its a quarter of what Ninja used in his tap water rinse rip clean.

the test doesnt seem invalid though to the cheering group, I get that.

In following along with this thread and seeing you say this is a tenth of what is needed I have to think you are outright saying he should have 40lbs of rock for his 4 gallons of water. Do you care to clarify this? I agree that maybe there are issues with the dosing and lack of control for how the kit reads, but this claim of rock poundage does not make sense.

 

[Rmckoy]

Do it the way you planned than - do not use RO water - that can change the whole set up - I can explain if you ask for an explanation

I do not agree in this.

Sincerely Lasse

I would love to hear the explanation ?

 

[brandon429]

Before anyone asks me bandwagoning questions there's a new requirement, to show prior thought and study vs flippant coat tailing

go get a specific rip clean example off the web, and post it, and ask me about the direct example. Pick one that uses as few rocks as we have here


prediction: not one person here makes that effort.

You get the explanation once you take your proposed challenge and match it to a job on file. Begin by showing a rip clean that re assembled with four small rocks in the display.

here's two counter proofs that tap on rocks didn't cause biofilter loss, living animals are the proof:

 

[Lasse]

lack of control for how the kit reads,

Because he will use the same kits in both tests - it will exclude any test fault problems. they will show the same wrong or right numbers both time

sincerely lasse

 

[MnFish1]

get a seneye and redo. Unsubbed. Still working in actual tanks though, doing rip cleans, that matters for pattern tracking. Two more were just completed in chat. Updates to the pertinent threads coming, when those are spot checked on seneye, we pass, thats the proof.

A seneye is no better than an API test for this experiment.

this thread is the official convention of people who have no work threads, literally if we added up all the remote tanks worked here from the crew and kept for inspection the sum would be zero.

My guess is that everyone here has a 'work thread' sitting in their house. Some (myself included) - have 4 ongoing work threads.

this is the first time a recipient of a rip clean, protected by it, made such an angled post using guaranteed misread alignments, no initial test benchmarking, purposefully undercut surface area plus massive overdose, so many burns in place. hopefully you have a strong grasp on surface area physics for future jobs, if not you have several masters of it here that will be ready to help again, twice.

It will be interesting if the results show that the rinse had no effect on the nitrification. Will you make the same statement then?

there was a neat way I would have arranged this test differently, using those materials above however and it specifically accounts for that test's ability to be blurred by profound initial dosing.

It all comes down to the 'hypothesis' Right? His hypothesis is not the same as the experiment you're talking about. That doesn't make him 'wrong' or the experiment 'bad'. Right?

You are getting extremely defensive about this. I actually did this because I believe you and wanted to help prove you are right. I don't believe rinsing rock in tap water is going to kill enough bacteria to uncycle a tank.

I think you hit the nail on the head - and its a common theme in some of these threads. In reality I don't see anyone saying a 'rip clean is not possible' etc.

I could link for us seneye counter studies that already measure this, but Lasse would type that seneye isn't right, and you'd all just agree lol. this is for coat tailing, strictly.

MN you know for a fact my rip clean threads are not examples of people heating and drying their rocks lol. you guys, this is a desperate one.

A poster which you referenced in another thread as an example of a successful 'rip clean' cleaned his rock with hot water - set them on the counter for 3 hours to partly dry (I thought it was overnight) - and left his sand in fresh tap water for a lengthy period of time. I doubt that there are very few examples of 'rip cleans' that follow exactly the same protocol. I have told you at least 50 times - I do not think rip cleaning as you define it causes problems.

someone has to twist and challenge every aspect of a test

In a way thats a good thing. IMHO - there is not much to change about 'this experiment'.

 

[kittenbritches]

Before anyone asks me bandwagoning questions there's a new requirement, to show prior thought and study vs flippant coat tailing

go get a specific rip clean example off the web, and post it, and ask me about the direct example. Pick one that uses as few rocks as we have here


prediction: not one person here makes that effort.

You get the explanation once you take your proposed challenge and match it to a job on file. Begin by showing a rip clean that re assembled with four small rocks in the display.

Do the rip cleans from your thread not have approximately 1 lb of rock per gallon of water? I really do think it should be scalable.

 

[Rmckoy]

Before anyone asks me bandwagoning questions there's a new requirement, to show prior thought and study vs flippant coat tailing

go get a specific rip clean example off the web, and post it, and ask me about the direct example. Pick one that uses as few rocks as we have here


prediction: not one person here makes that effort.

You get the explanation once you take your proposed challenge and match it to a job on file. Begin by showing a rip clean that re assembled with four small rocks in the display.

Why are you so defensive ?

simple question ?

ok so . I have a 230 gal dt with 250 lbs of rock ,
Minimal sand .

I have roughly 20 fish ranging sizes from clownfish to foxface , mata tang ,
If I rip all the rocks out and scrub in tap water .
do I have enough bacteria in my tank to avoid a crash ?

 

[brandon429]

Im not doing the research work for this whole group. Pick one example, we analyze it case by case. Start by posting a link from a rip clean that uses one pound per gallon.

you guys are being pressed to link your leading questions to a real world example, it takes reading time vs quick initial reactive typing, so I'm not expecting much.

post your example R let's see the low surface area job you want feedback on.

 

[brandon429]

Build Thread - Amalee’s 75g Build

Hey friends ❤️ Finally pulled the trigger and made a “dream” purchase. It’s not an expensive addition, just one I was a bit nervous about so it doesn’t disrupt the balance in the tank. But I could not be happier to have this guy! Torch mountain will be finished up next week too! I got the...

www.reef2reef.com

there's my first proof. middle pages, tap water on rocks.


see that degree of live rock? that's not four tiny chunks soaked for hours.

I'm able to provide direct work examples for my claims, I'm needing half that effort from this collective questions group

go find a work example you think turned out poorly, or one using as few rock we can inspect that turned out well.

 

[Jedi1199]

Thanks - I misremembered - or confused it with another post. Apologies. Just to make it clear - I was not criticizing what you did - nor questioning the results you had.

No need to apologize. I simply wanted to correct a statement that would potentially be misleading.


As for the OP test. My problem here is scale. For instance, my 32g tank had about 30 lbs of rock in it. That 30 Lbs consisted of about 20 or so individual pieces. This creates a very large amount of actual surface area. In order to make this test valid, You would have to use about the same number of pieces to create the rock to water ratio intended to mimic the actual tank.

In my opinion, the idea behind the test has merit. I do agree with Brandon however that the methodology is inaccurate.

 

[MnFish1]

go get a specific rip clean example off the web, and post it, and ask me about the direct example. Pick one that uses as few rocks as we have here


prediction: not one person here makes that effort.

There you go.

32g rework...

My 32g tank has been a real problem for quite a while now. I just cant seem to get the algae under control. Today I decided it's time to do a full rework on this tank. Pried off all the coral frags and removed all of the rock. Scraping all of the algae off the back as possible and scrub the...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

32g rework...

My 32g tank has been a real problem for quite a while now. I just cant seem to get the algae under control. Today I decided it's time to do a full rework on this tank. Pried off all the coral frags and removed all of the rock. Scraping all of the algae off the back as possible and scrub the...

www.reef2reef.com

And your job makes a fine counter example. when we study the big picture, its different than basing everything on a totally overloaded not calibrated for safe zone red sea kit.

I took the time to post two specific counter examples, I'm asking this group collectively for just one


before we ask any more leading questions, show some thought relative to the big picture.

Pick a specific work example that matches the question we want answered, link that, this keeps this group's questions from being far left field/not from any practice/not relevant to the discussion whatsoever.

As we dig for examples to try and find a rip clean that meets the alignment of an upcoming question, how are those results turning out along the way?

and if we didn't do any digging, any study to try and match questions to the specific work example, then just know that's the difference between sidelining and making the plays.

Anyone here, find a rip clean using the fewest reassembly rocks you can find and we'll discuss its outcome. find one using these few as Coxey did here.