Emperor swim bladder issues?

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

can anyone tell me if this looks like a swim bladder issue?
fish is in a 200lt QT tank (with some other fish..Asfur and bluering included) which is held under cupramine 0.32 (this morning reading)..doind daily 50% water changes and maintain copper between .25-.35 .... no live rock only sponge filter installed with lots of extra oxygenation. All 3 Angels are in there with other fish 3 days no issues all eating well (not swimming long distances though) but bo visual or noticed aggresion seen. Fish has no marks or spots anywhere....though from this morning he was laying flat on the bottom..trying to handle him he struggles to keep upright...so we put gim in his private enclosure with extra oxygen....not taking food anymore going upright but head down and seems to be going in spastic fits all tensed up flat....+will try to get one of those recorded from our security cam on him...
sorry for bad imagine as QT is heavily scratched and taken from security cam...

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

looking exhausted...

 

[vetteguy53081]

can anyone tell me if this looks like a swim bladder issue?
fish is in a 200lt QT tank (with some other fish..Asfur and bluering included) which is held under cupramine 0.32 (this morning reading)..doind daily 50% water changes and maintain copper between .25-.35 .... no live rock only sponge filter installed with lots of extra oxygenation. All 3 Angels are in there with other fish 3 days no issues all eating well (not swimming long distances though) but bo visual or noticed aggresion seen. Fish has no marks or spots anywhere....though from this morning he was laying flat on the bottom..trying to handle him he struggles to keep upright...so we put gim in his private enclosure with extra oxygen....not taking food anymore going upright but head down and seems to be going in spastic fits all tensed up flat....+will try to get one of those recorded from our security cam on him...
sorry for bad imagine as QT is heavily scratched and taken from security cam...

Add airstone if possible and I dont see full evidence of bladder issue but rather a fish that is stressed. Copper assuming cupramine at .35 is borderline and water seems a little hazy. How are you testing for ammonia?

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

Add airstone if possible and I dont see full evidence of bladder issue but rather a fish that is stressed. Copper assuming cupramine at .35 is borderline and water seems a little hazy. How are you testing for ammonia?

testing for ammonia is not possible with any of the testkits we have available here...ApI..Hanna due to the copper.
water not realy hazy as its more the glass heavily scratched and camera quality...from top view water looks clear.
I was hoping we knock the ammonia with the daily 50% water changes or should I do bigger?
Copper we should try to bring closer to .25? I thought for cupramine it was .25-.50..?

 

[vetteguy53081]

testing for ammonia is not possible with any of the testkits we have available here...ApI..Hanna due to the copper.
water not realy hazy as its more the glass heavily scratched and camera quality...from top view water looks clear.
I was hoping we knock the ammonia with the daily 50% water changes or should I do bigger?
Copper we should try to bring closer to .25? I thought for cupramine it was .25-.50..?

Cupramin max is .5 and recommended .45. I assume you are matching copper level when making new water?

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

Cupramin max is .5 and recommended .45. I assume you are matching copper level when making new water?

that is correct... try to maintain a .25-.35 level
we feeding this QT tank frozen Copepods..Krill..and live Brine (as long the stay live with the copper) and some dry pellets... feeding twice a day with afternoon feeding about 20-30 min before water change cleaning out all left overs (if any) sucking out the water...

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

still trying to catch a recording of this spasm he showed previous... laying down almost folding himself double and acting like being in labor or something...

 

[ga2040]

Sorry to say but looks like he wont make it.

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

Sorry to say but looks like he wont make it.

he might not but still wanting to learn whats happening with him

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

Add airstone if possible and I dont see full evidence of bladder issue but rather a fish that is stressed. Copper assuming cupramine at .35 is borderline and water seems a little hazy. How are you testing for ammonia?

added the airstone
seems he is doing all in his power to look for the airstone and hang over it... cant seem to get the front part of his body bouyant .....

 

[ga2040]

he might not but still wanting to learn whats happening with him

Possibilities are a severe bacterial infection ,injury or some exposure to heavy medication could be the causes.

 

[fish_collector]

Does the imperator have any external signs of parasites? Any of the other fish? It looks to me like he's in distress due to low oxygen uptake. If none of the other fish show any signs of parasites, he may have gill flukes, which copper will not kill. You can isolate him and dose praziquantel alongside copper if you have access to it.

 

[Louis Z]

Normally I would say a freshwater dip but not at that level of distress . Velvet can cause a lack of oxygen when parasite load is high .

 

[vetteguy53081]

added the airstone
seems he is doing all in his power to look for the airstone and hang over it... cant seem to get the front part of his body bouyant .....

based on video may be a buoyancy issue in which the bladder need to release air

 

[Jay Hemdal]

he might not but still wanting to learn whats happening with him

It doesn’t look like a swim bladder issue to me, more that the fish is weak.

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

looks like it had to do something with oxygen depletion in the tank?
had 2 sponge filters and a chiller pump with return from heigth and one small airstone..... since added the second airstone he got a bit better
did a 75% water change and injected many more oxygen stones looks like he is recovering
while this was going on the Achilles started to behave the same just laying on the floor...since the change and oxygen injection he recovered as well ...
tomorrow will set up a full oxygen curtain in the tank
little bit hard to see (night lights) but Achilles back swimming and Emperor more upright floating

 

[Louis Z]

Do you know how to identify velvet ? The tang coming down with it could be that velvet is spreading .

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

tank was under cupramine so velvet would have been unlikely...not impossable but unlikely...
and doesnt.
Copper levels way down now due to aggresive water change but rather have them relax first before amping it up again...only this time with much more oxygen i suppose....

 

[Louis Z]

So how long have the fish been in this tank and when was cupramine added ? When were the air stones /pump added to increase oxygen ? When you write that the fish was over the air it seemed like it was trying it’s best to get more oxygen . And you had said there was oxygen added before . One of the signs of velvet upon the gills is when fish try to head into current continuously to force oxygen across the gills . They do so expending all their energy to do it . If you are just using air stones then maybe the fish are hovering above it and trying to do it this way . Being over an air stone is water moving upwards and the fish has to compensate for it by trying to swim downwards . Maybe that’s your observation of swim bladder issues . If the copper is up and down with water changes then your therapeutic level is not maintained . Not try to argue but that sure does seem like velvet .

 

[Aquatica Services Pattaya]

So how long have the fish been in this tank and when was cupramine added ? When were the air stones /pump added to increase oxygen ? When you write that the fish was over the air it seemed like it was trying it’s best to get more oxygen . And you had said there was oxygen added before . One of the signs of velvet upon the gills is when fish try to head into current continuously to force oxygen across the gills . They do so expending all their energy to do it . If you are just using air stones then maybe the fish are hovering above it and trying to do it this way . Being over an air stone is water moving upwards and the fish has to compensate for it by trying to swim downwards . Maybe that’s your observation of swim bladder issues . If the copper is up and down with water changes then your therapeutic level is not maintained . Not try to argue but that sure does seem like velvet .

fish were purchased 4 days ago and have all been added in the QT tank with a copper level between .25 and .35. Daily water xhanges were made with the nrw water being beiught to same level as tank copper levels so we never had a reading less then .25 in the tank for those 4 days.
Initially tank was set up with 2 spong filters the waterfall return and 1 airstone.
Since initially Emperor and later Achilles started laying themselves down more oxygen was added at advice of Jay which clearly did something to them)
Not saying it can not be velvet but it seems hard to have an outbreak with the copper present. I understand that attached parasites were there to stay maybe but it would be hard for other free swimming parasites to have been around and able to attach correct?
Emperor clearly deteriorated rapidly iden dito fir Achilles and bith recivered (so it seems but lets wait till tmrw morning) with the extra added oxygen stones.
i am happy I can discuss this with all you as i try to learn from all your opinions