Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)

[kesh]

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)​

The following chart is a quick reference guide on what QT protocol should be used according to which type of fish you are running through QT. It will give you an idea of which methods are generally safest with certain species but is not meant to be absolute in most cases. All fish are individuals and can and will react differently than the norm to certain medications or situations. Just because most tangs do well in copper doesn’t mean that every tang will do well. The chart is numbered in levels of tolerance/ease with each method according to the general experience of several knowledgeable people including myself, @4FordFamily, @Humblefish, @eatbreakfast, @evolved and @Brew12. I thank each of them for their input and help in putting this whole thing together. You will also find helpful advice and tips for QT’ing many of the fish in this chart that are deemed more difficult.

Acronyms used: TTM = Tank Transfer Method CP = Chloroquine Phosphate

** Angels have been found to be even more sensitive to ammonia poisoning than most other fish so more care should be taken to keep ammonia absolutely absent from the tanks during tank transfer method. This is why they are marked with an elevated risk level with TTM. With copper (both kinds) most angels have been found to be relatively resilient in it provided the copper levels are slowly raised over the course of 4 or 5 days. Taking longer never hurts as long as velvet is not suspected.

** The marked wrasse in this section have been found to be tolerant of these copper products provided the levels are carefully risen to therapeutic levels over the course of 4-10 days. Watching carefully for tolerance issues since all fish are individuals and may react differently than the norm. No wrasses should be treated with CP until more testing can be done to understand why they seem to do so poorly.

** Wrasse in general should be allowed to settle and start eating for several days before copper treatment is started. While they can handle copper, it’s best to give them the time before hand for maximum chance of survival. If a wrasse has an injury or infection before going into QT, that “settling time” should be extended until the injury or infection has healed completely before starting copper. Provide a small glass dish of sand for the wrasse that bury at night to help keep them comfortable while in QT.

Photo by R2R member @Rsaalman​

** The harlequin tusk seems to be tolerant of all coppers but care must be taken with how quickly the levels are raised. Take 4-5 days to raise copper up to therapeutic levels and watch for tolerance issues

** I have kept lionfish in copper for long periods before without issue, but it's tricky to get them eating and keep them eating. Also, not all the lions attempted lasted in the copper. It seems that 2 out of 5 would do ok and the rest would perish rather quickly.

** I have kept puffers in copper for periods of time as well, but it was chelated copper and it was risky. They refused to eat for up to 2 weeks and had to be enticed using live foods and whole gulf cost shrimp. I didn't have the luxury of raising the levels slowly, so if it's absolutely needed to treat a puffer with copper, then do so slowly if possible.

**Some Zebrasoma tangs seem to be completely intolerant of copper. This is quickly decided if red blotches, loss of color or the refuse to eat while raising the copper levels. If this happens the fish should be removed into a QT with no copper in it until it resumes eating and it's color has returned. If it happens again after a second try in copper, another QT method should be used if possible.

If you have any questions on an individual species not listed here, please ask. Also, never be afraid to create a thread in the disease forum with QT questions as well.

photo by R2R member @d_adler​

Hi..what about triggers, in particular picasso triggerfish and their compatibility with cupramine?

 

[deedubz]

@melypr1985
Aside from a fish not eating, is there any other signs/symptoms of copper intolerance to look for?

I have 4 wrasses being treated. 2 in qt1 and 2 in qt2. I was fortunate enough to get velvet from some inverts so the ramp up was done in 48 hours rather than 4-5 days. All 4 wrasses, and their tank mates, are eating. I just wanted an idea of what to be looking for. Thank you!

 

[melypr1985]

@melypr1985
Aside from a fish not eating, is there any other signs/symptoms of copper intolerance to look for?

I have 4 wrasses being treated. 2 in qt1 and 2 in qt2. I was fortunate enough to get velvet from some inverts so the ramp up was done in 48 hours rather than 4-5 days. All 4 wrasses, and their tank mates, are eating. I just wanted an idea of what to be looking for. Thank you!

Lethargy, loss of color ect. The biggest tell is if you transfer the fish into a bucket of saltwater that has NO copper in it and they start acting just fine.

 

[cody hendrix]

What would be the best to use on a angler? copper or cp?

 

[cody hendrix]

What would be the best to use on a angler? copper or cp?

 

[Humblefish]

What would be the best to use on a angler? copper or cp?

CP

 

[cody hendrix]

Thanks

 

[Reef Box]

I don't know if this is the right place to post but most of the heavy hitters are probably following so I figured it was worth a shot. Lost a Wrasse the other day and still trying to make sense of things....so many what ifs but not really anything definitive.

Question is, what's the chance that after I ran this wrasse through QT and the full array of treatments I introduced him into a tank with some-kind of parasite waiting? The tank was without fish (has corals, crabs and snails) for at least a couple months but prior to that there were fish that passed for unknown reasons before I started doing QT. How long does one think these parasites could live without a host? Is there anything I should do to clear the tank before I put the next fish in out of QT?

I was considering prazi-pro for a couple doses but will it be effective? Any input I can get is always appreciated.

 

[deedubz]

Wrasses are experts at hiding disease, but were there any symptoms.. behavioral or physical? Did you by chance give it a freshwater dip post mortem?

By a couple months do you mean 1-2 or 3+. Dormant period for some disease can be up to 76 days. Uronema doesn't need a host to survive. It would be in a tank indefinitely, unless you were to break it down and sterilize. That said, uronema USUALLY only effects chromis

 

[Reef Box]

Wrasses are experts at hiding disease, but were there any symptoms.. behavioral or physical? Did you by chance give it a freshwater dip post mortem?

By a couple months do you mean 1-2 or 3+. Dormant period for some disease can be up to 76 days. Uronema doesn't need a host to survive. It would be in a tank indefinitely, unless you were to break it down and sterilize. That said, uronema USUALLY only effects chromis

The short version after I looked back at my calendar is that the last fish I had died before Oct 1, 2017 the wrasse wasn't put in until March 3, 2018 (so >5 months without fish) after 30+ days in copper at therapeutic levels (tested daily) 2 prazipro treatments 7 days apart followed by a week of observation. Food treated with Metroplex bound with Focus was fed almost the entire copper treatment period. The Wrasse was eating all food offered daily, cruised the tank looking for snacks and appeared completely normal . Absolutely no signs of infection, discoloration, odd behavior or anything at all. Was in the DT for 5 weeks.

There was a soda ash overdose from a doser that was inadvertently turned on overnight. The total dose was about 3 cups of solution raising the Alkalinity reading from ~7.3 to just above 13dKH over a period of approx 8 hours. I reached out in another post (
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-now.379220/#post-4636127 ) and it seemed like the actual overdose was not the cause but that a spike in ammonia could have been. I got the wrasse out, fresh water dipped it and got him into a Hospital tank ( no sign of parasites after the FW dip). The following day I was able to get ahold of Methylene Blue that I used as a bath (again no sign of anything in the bath water) before returning the wrasse back to the HT and treated with Kanaplex for what looked like the start of fin rot. In the end he stopped swimming or moving altogether after the second day. Although he was still breathing he died 2 days later. The theory is that if it were ammonia it would have reacted to the treatments right?. I'm wondering if the OD was a coincidence and that there was something else wrong that I may need to address before adding any other fish. I just really want to do whatever I can to stop losing fish and provide a healy environment for any future fish I get. As a side note all corals and CUC are unaffected by whatever is going on.
No post mortem FW dip performed although I will be doing one in the future if this happens again

Here is a video taken 2 days following the tank clearing up from the OD (there are additional videos on the other post as well):

 

[deedubz]

If it was 5 months between fish then I'd be surprised if it was a parasite. Have you ever checked for stray voltage? Only other thing I can think of is maybe a spinal injury?

 

[Reef Box]

I will check on the stray voltage. Everything is pretty new but I can check it out easy enough. What causes an injury. The Wrasse is the only fish in the tank. Definitely something to consider I suspect.

 

[melypr1985]

I will check on the stray voltage. Everything is pretty new but I can check it out easy enough. What causes an injury. The Wrasse is the only fish in the tank. Definitely something to consider I suspect.

He looks to be behaving oddly, but there isn't anything there I can point at and say "that's the culprit" aside from possible internal issues as a result of your "overdose" situation.

 

[Reefpharmer]

hey guys, so i have an interesting problem.

I picked up two wrasse from a guy who's tank was wiped from what he thinks is velvet. These two particular wrasse are leopard and male McCosker wrasse survived the deaths. The leopard is eating frozen mysis (not sure if McCosker is eating because he is hiding (but does peak out in the tunze rock i have in the QT). Before getting them, I JUST completed a 15 day treatment with CP on a pink tail trigger. I did not realize CP is on the DO NOT DOSE for Wrasse list and just dumped them straight into the QT tank after moving the trigger. They did not die and generally are alive and kicking. I dont want to move them into my DT without proper precautions and I def dont want to bring in ICH into my DT as I have multiple tangs etc.

With that said, should I drop the salinity into hypo for Ich or should I keep them in the current tank with CP present (full dose 17 days ago via Ick Shield CP)/or do a water change and re-dose CP throwing caution to the wind. I dont really know whether to just leave it and pray/do hypo/do tank transfer (which probably is a freakshow for wrasses that are already stressed out). I never properly dosed copper, so that probably wont work out well...

Thanks!!

 

[melypr1985]

hey guys, so i have an interesting problem.

I picked up two wrasse from a guy who's tank was wiped from what he thinks is velvet. These two particular wrasse are leopard and male McCosker wrasse survived the deaths. The leopard is eating frozen mysis (not sure if McCosker is eating because he is hiding (but does peak out in the tunze rock i have in the QT). Before getting them, I JUST completed a 15 day treatment with CP on a pink tail trigger. I did not realize CP is on the DO NOT DOSE for Wrasse list and just dumped them straight into the QT tank after moving the trigger. They did not die and generally are alive and kicking. I dont want to move them into my DT without proper precautions and I def dont want to bring in ICH into my DT as I have multiple tangs etc.

With that said, should I drop the salinity into hypo for Ich or should I keep them in the current tank with CP present (full dose 17 days ago via Ick Shield CP)/or do a water change and re-dose CP throwing caution to the wind. I dont really know whether to just leave it and pray/do hypo/do tank transfer (which probably is a freakshow for wrasses that are already stressed out). I never properly dosed copper, so that probably wont work out well...

Thanks!!

Honestly, I would transfer into a new QT and run the copper. TTM isn't all that difficult on wrasses, as I've run more than a few through it with flying colors including a blue star leopard wrasse. However, TTM doesn't address the possibility of velvet. I mostly recommend the copper in your case, because the CP you are using isn't guaranteed to be pure which means that it's impossible to tell if you are actually dosing therapeutic amounts of CP into the QT anyway.

 

[Reefpharmer]

I completely understand what you are saying re purity however I put several fish in my DT through this CP and they went through ok. I sourced those fish from the local pet stores which def have velvet in the system. My main concern isn’t the purity (since I’ve already used this batch of CP on other fish in the DT) but CP with these wrasses in general and whether TTM is a reasonable alternative... for ex in 5 gallon buckets or 10 gallon tank with an air stone and a heater. I’m certain they will be more stressed in the smaller tank. I’m concerned re copper because the only time I have tried it, I killed the fish (or they died from velvet shortly after start of copper)...

 

[melypr1985]

I completely understand what you are saying re purity however I put several fish in my DT through this CP and they went through ok. I sourced those fish from the local pet stores which def have velvet in the system. My main concern isn’t the purity (since I’ve already used this batch of CP on other fish in the DT) but CP with these wrasses in general and whether TTM is a reasonable alternative... for ex in 5 gallon buckets or 10 gallon tank with an air stone and a heater. I’m certain they will be more stressed in the smaller tank. I’m concerned re copper because the only time I have tried it, I killed the fish (or they died from velvet shortly after start of copper)...

Yes, and since CP and most wrasse is a bad idea and TTM isn't an option because of the possibility of velvet being present, copper is my recommendation. As long as you test frequently, raise the levels slowly, and keep the water quality up, you shouldn't have any issues.

 

[Reefpharmer]

Alright thank you. Would you think a 10 gallon tank is acceptable for copper? Since the mccorker isn’t visibly eating, I’m assuming he won’t eat in copper either. Just throw some pvc elbows heater and an air stone ? Avoid rock or sand container ?

 

[melypr1985]

Alright thank you. Would you think a 10 gallon tank is acceptable for copper? Since the mccorker isn’t visibly eating, I’m assuming he won’t eat in copper either. Just throw some pvc elbows heater and an air stone ? Avoid rock or sand container ?

A 10 gallon would be fine. You can have a small glass dish with sand for the leopard. I suggest an HOB filter, but the airstone would be a good addition to the rest.

 

[Thomashtom]

What about Crosshatch triggers?

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)​

The following chart is a quick reference guide on what QT protocol should be used according to which type of fish you are running through QT. It will give you an idea of which methods are generally safest with certain species but is not meant to be absolute in most cases. All fish are individuals and can and will react differently than the norm to certain medications or situations. Just because most tangs do well in copper doesn’t mean that every tang will do well. The chart is numbered in levels of tolerance/ease with each method according to the general experience of several knowledgeable people including myself, @4FordFamily, @Humblefish, @eatbreakfast, @evolved and @Brew12. I thank each of them for their input and help in putting this whole thing together. You will also find helpful advice and tips for QT’ing many of the fish in this chart that are deemed more difficult.

Acronyms used: TTM = Tank Transfer Method CP = Chloroquine Phosphate

** Angels have been found to be even more sensitive to ammonia poisoning than most other fish so more care should be taken to keep ammonia absolutely absent from the tanks during tank transfer method. This is why they are marked with an elevated risk level with TTM. With copper (both kinds) most angels have been found to be relatively resilient in it provided the copper levels are slowly raised over the course of 4 or 5 days. Taking longer never hurts as long as velvet is not suspected.

** The marked wrasse in this section have been found to be tolerant of these copper products provided the levels are carefully risen to therapeutic levels over the course of 4-10 days. Watching carefully for tolerance issues since all fish are individuals and may react differently than the norm. No wrasses should be treated with CP until more testing can be done to understand why they seem to do so poorly.

** Wrasse in general should be allowed to settle and start eating for several days before copper treatment is started. While they can handle copper, it’s best to give them the time before hand for maximum chance of survival. If a wrasse has an injury or infection before going into QT, that “settling time” should be extended until the injury or infection has healed completely before starting copper. Provide a small glass dish of sand for the wrasse that bury at night to help keep them comfortable while in QT.

Photo by R2R member @Rsaalman​

** The harlequin tusk seems to be tolerant of all coppers but care must be taken with how quickly the levels are raised. Take 4-5 days to raise copper up to therapeutic levels and watch for tolerance issues

** I have kept lionfish in copper for long periods before without issue, but it's tricky to get them eating and keep them eating. Also, not all the lions attempted lasted in the copper. It seems that 2 out of 5 would do ok and the rest would perish rather quickly.

** I have kept puffers in copper for periods of time as well, but it was chelated copper and it was risky. They refused to eat for up to 2 weeks and had to be enticed using live foods and whole gulf cost shrimp. I didn't have the luxury of raising the levels slowly, so if it's absolutely needed to treat a puffer with copper, then do so slowly if possible.

**Some Zebrasoma tangs seem to be completely intolerant of copper. This is quickly decided if red blotches, loss of color or the refuse to eat while raising the copper levels. If this happens the fish should be removed into a QT with no copper in it until it resumes eating and it's color has returned. If it happens again after a second try in copper, another QT method should be used if possible.

If you have any questions on an individual species not listed here, please ask. Also, never be afraid to create a thread in the disease forum with QT questions as well.

photo by R2R member @d_adler​

 

[melypr1985]

Triggers are typically fine in both type of copper and CP.