Garlic... not a debate, but a hunt for info.

[Brew12]

I'm just hoping Lionfish can pull enough information out to let us know if using low levels of garlic can be harmful. Not anectotal evidence, scientific evidence.

That way we can make an informed decision if the potential good is outweighed by the potential harm.

 

[evolved]

But the message I took away at MACNA was "but it doesn't hurt to try"?!?!?!

What's being said at MACNA about garlic?

Oh, totally nothing. That was a jab at Sanjay's heckling of Rich during their presentation. Sanjay kept interjecting with such whenever the opportunity presented.
Yeah, you probably had to be there.
/thread distraction (sorry)

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I'm still organizing the studies. Just transferred them all to dropbox and now gotta rename them all or I'll regret it later. There's 77 in all. I figure that's enough for now. LOL!

 

[Brew12]

I'm still organizing the studies. Just transferred them all to dropbox and now gotta rename them all or I'll regret it later. There's 77 in all. I figure that's enough for now. LOL!

Does that mean we have to wait until tomorrow for the answers?

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I'm probably never going to want to eat garlic ever again after this.

 

[miyags]

Fact, No garlic in the ocean. I tried it years ago,to get fish to eat.did not seem to do much. In fact one of my tangs who eats everything wouldn't touch nori soaked in garlic extreme.

 

[Frop]

Garlic is bad for fish. Unless it is good for them. I fed garlic to a fish and it died. I didn't feed garlic to a fish and it died. I fed garlic to a fish and it is still alive. I didn't feed garlic to a fish and it is still alive.

Did I cover all of the anecdotal basis?

Lol!

 

[Mark Gray]

Just thought I would add this my fish don't like garlic, if I put omega one with garlic and omega one with out garlic they will always eat the one without garlic.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

76 studies... one was a duplicate.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

The whole "you don't find it in their natural environment, so it' not beneficial for them" argument kind of drives me a little crazy, I have to admit. Look in your cupboard, what do you think is natural in there. That Big Mac one had for lunch... do you think that's natural? It's not about the food, it's about the nutrients it breaks down into. Go look at your dog food label and see if everything in there is what they would be happily chewing on in the wild. Some people can't eat "real food" and 100% of their diets consist of stuff like pediasure. Some people live on IV fluids continuously. Our nurse supervisor had a backpack on her at all times... it was pumping IV fluids (called TPN Total Parental Nutrition) into her. I've seen a lot of "alternative nutrition" in my career.

Fish also don't eat dead old frozen food or dehydrated kelp. That's not natural. Sure, it once was from the ocean, but nutritionally and structurally, it's not the same any more. It's still not a natural food. Thankfully, our body doesn't need "food", it needs nutrients and doesn't really care about their source as long as they're present.

 

[miyags]

Out of the 76 studies you read, What's your conclusion on garlic?

 

[Lionfish Lair]

You mean out of the 3 I've gotten through yet?

I read through a lot of these before though, as we were trying to decide if we wanted to add it to our product. I did not think it added enough benefit in lieu of something else. There's so many goodies out there that can prove to be beneficial, so I didn't add garlic. In making this decision, I didn't run across all the negative points I read on the forums. That to me is eyebrow raising, that maybe we're not making the correct assumption that garlic is harmful.

Will I likely use garlic after I'm finished reading? Not likely. Will I be able to prove it's harmful. I don't think so.

Maybe I should summarize some of the articles once I've read them, if they contain something interesting? Would that route be helpful, do you think? I'm also hitting my hitchhikers guide pretty hard, so I'm moving back and forth between projects... and then there's school. LOL! I'm working towards my masters and it's soooo.... not interesting. I'd rather be doing this.

 

[Brew12]

Maybe I should summarize some of the articles once I've read them, if they contain something interesting?

I would very much appreciate a non-biased synopsis of any information you find that is relevant.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Just remember an article doesn't irrefutably prove anything and science itself has flaws. Studies should also be repeatable so if it's a stand alone, it carries less weight. No single article can lay down the law. There are whole degrees centered around this stuff and even they still get it "wrong". I'm just going to highlight some points.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Talpur, A., & Ikhwanuddin, M. (2012). Dietary effects of garlic ( Allium sativum ) on haemato-immunological parameters, survival, growth, and disease resistance against Vibrio harveyi infection in Asian sea bass, Lates calcarifer (Bloch). Aquaculture, 364, 6-12.

Abstract
The purpose of this study was to determine the immune response and disease resistance against Vibrio hmveyi infections in Asian sea bass Laces ca/carifer fingerlings through garlic (Allium sativum) added dietary doses. Garlic was supplemented into the diets at 5 g, 10 g, 15 g and 20 g/kg feed and fed to fish daily for two weeks. Control fed without garlic added diet Garlic-added feed led to increased survival for all treated groups and dose of garlic at 10 gtkg feed significantly improved survival to 83.35% compared with the controls (33.3%). In addition. there was a significant increase in growth, weight-gain and feed conversion in garlic-fed groups. Various haematological, biochemical and immunological parameters were studied. Erythrocytes, leucocytes, haematocrit, haemoglobin, phagocytic activity, respiratory burst. lysozyme. anti-protease and bactericidal activities were enhanced following feeding with garlic. Significantly higher serum protein, albumin and globulin levels were evident in treated groups. There was a reduction in serum glucose. lipids. triglycerides and cholesterol in treated groups compared to the control. The results indicate that garlic led to enhance the immunity by making L calcarifer more resistant to infection by V. harveyi.

Study goal was "to examine the immunostimulants efficiency of the garlic (Allium sativum) as a feed additive on haematological and biochemical parameters of the blood/serum of Asian sea bass, L. calcarifer in relation to immune response, and disease resistance."

Aquaculture is a steadily increasing sector. Intensive fish culture creates a highly stressful environment for fish that further restrains the immune response and outbreak of infection occurs (Kumari and Sahoo. 2005). lmmunostimulants by their broad-spectrum activity seem to be valuable for the control of fish diseases and therefore can be useful in fish culture. The results of the present study supports the growing idea that immunostimulants plants can trigger fish immune functions in any form of stress (Ardo' et al.. 2008) and they reverse the detrimental effects inte1vened by stress (Sahoo and Mukherjee, 2002, 2003). Garlic, an important medicinal herb, has a potent effect on pathogenic organisms but also has beneficial effects on the immune enhancement and cardiovascular systems

The diet was: "Garlic (A. sativum) was procured from the local market in Kuala Terengganu, Malaysia. Bulbs of garlic were oven-dried, crushed into small grains/powdery form using a household electric grinder, and mixed directly with fish feed contents (Table 1) to achieve four diets 5 g, 10 g, 15 g and 20 g of garlic per kg of feed and control was without garlic. Water was added and the ingredients of basal diet mixed mechanically with the garlic by mixer (Hobart D300T) for 20 min at a low speed to assure the homogeneity of the ingredients."

The results as far as survivability "Fish fed with garlic-added feed showed remarkable reduction in mortality after challenge with V. harveyi. There was no mortality seen up to 20 hours (h) after challenge. Highest su1vival (83.3%) achieved in the group. which was fed garlic at 1 0 g/kg feed. However. fish fed garlic at 15 g and 20 g/kg produced same survival ratio respectively. Fish fed with garlic-added feed at various ratios showed significantly (p<0.05) higher survival percentage when compared with the control (Fig. 1 ). However. there were no significance differences observed among the fish groups fed with garlic-added feed (p>0.05)."

Conclusion:
"The results of the present study clearly emphasise the therapeutic and immuno-potential of garlic both to protect the fish from diseases caused by microbes and to act as fish growth and survival promoters. In conclusion, as it was evident f om this study, the non-specific immunity of fish and prevention of bacterial infections in culture systems could be achieved through the addition of garlic in the fish diet. Further studies should be focussed on the mechanism of action of garlic needed in determination of appropriate doses, with/or without other potential plants, for commercial balanced formulated diets for the sustainable development of Asian sea bass aquaculture.

 

[Brew12]

Talpur, A., & Ikhwanuddin, M. (2012). Dietary effects of garlic ( Allium sativum ) on haemato-immunological parameters, survival, growth, and disease resistance against Vibrio harveyi infection in Asian sea bass, Lates calcarifer (Bloch). Aquaculture, 364, 6-12.

I always worry that people will read an article like this and think to themselves that this means garlic is a cure or worth using. Personally, I read this "Highest su1vival (83.3%) achieved in the group." and I can't help but think that I wouldn't be happy if I lost 1 out of 5 fish.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I always worry that people will read an article like this and think to themselves that this means garlic is a cure or worth using. Personally, I read this "Highest su1vival (83.3%) achieved in the group." and I can't help but think that I wouldn't be happy if I lost 1 out of 5 fish.

That's why I put my little blurb there about a single study proving nothing. I'm going to be following that one up with many more like it. That's what I'm saying.... it doesn't make sense that supplementation will cause harm when most of what I read is similar to that article.

The study is not saying it's a cure for Vibrio, so if people jump to that conclusion.... well, there's not much to be done about that when it's saying something totally different. The researchers spell out what they believe the significance of their study was.... "it was evident from this study, the non-specific immunity of fish and prevention of bacterial infections in culture systems could be achieved through the addition of garlic in the fish diet. Further studies should be focussed on the mechanism of action of garlic needed in determination of appropriate doses, with/or without other potential plants, for commercial balanced formulated diets for the sustainable development of Asian sea bass aquaculture." That's it, that's all it's "proving".

BUT, in any case.... this one goes into the "Pro Pile".