Greybeard's Rant on vendors selling sick animals

[ScottR]

I disagree, Back in the 80's I had a Prized Discus tank, I was Paying $45 for quarter sized fish and up to 100 for lemon sized
fish. About the same as today, When my LFS sold me bad fish and wiped out my tank HE made it right! Today fish are cheaper and the fishes' health is on you. BTW I switched to salt back then and SW fish prices was about the same as today.
I think
BTW WERE is this fish store with clean fish? I will spend 1K tomorrow

My thinking is that if you live close to where the fish was collected, you’ll have a much healthier, tank ready fish. Imagine living in Maine and getting a fish that’s originally from Australia. How many hands has it changed? Was it brought by boat in a shipping container or thrown onto a commercial plane? I can’t imagine how scared it must be. Temperature changes. Irregular feedings. Irregular lights. Cramped together with other fish. And then it’s brought into a pet store where it’s usually thrown into a lower salinity water. If it survives the ordeal, it then gets thrown in a qt at someone’s home and coppered and medicated. I’m not saying any of this is wrong but I can see why fish have a hard time.

 

[ingchr1]

...Something to think about is: why do hobbyist deal with ich so much but you never see it in the ocean?...

I see this brought up and have thought about why this may be.

Fish heath and stress seam to be factors, but are they the only ones?

Could another factor be that the parasites can can be much more numerous in our tiny ecosystems? In the ocean maybe only a couple of parasites can find their way to an individual fish, but in our fish tank maybe all the available parasites can find their way to fish? Also, in the ocean are there parasite predators?

 

[ScottR]

I see this brought up and have thought about why this may be.

Fish heath and stress seam to be factors, but are they the only ones?

Could another factor be that the parasites can can be much more numerous in our tiny ecosystems? In the ocean maybe only a couple of parasites can find their way to an individual fish, but in our fish tank maybe all the available parasites can find their way to fish? Also, in the ocean are there parasite predators?

The ocean is an ecosystem. Fish have immunities and the parasites have predators. A weak fish in a sterile glass box is getting double teamed.

 

[ingchr1]

Does a QT need to be so stressful? Does it need to be a bare tank with PVC pipes? Can we make it less stressful?

My QT has a very thin layer of crushed coral with fake decorations. The fish have places to hide, swim through and sleep.

 

[S2G]

I think we need to do away with that 14 day guarantee. It would force these vendors to provide better quality or fall by the wayside. It gives these vendors providing garbage quality a crutch. There's a spray & pray mentality.

 

[ScottR]

Does a QT need to be so stressful? Does it need to be a bare tank with PVC pipes? Can we make it less stressful?

My QT has a very thin layer of crushed coral with fake decorations. The fish have places to hide, swim through and sleep.

For people that QT with medications go with a bare tank so it can be broken down and completely cleansed.

 

[Humblefish]

This is my rant. I work in a state trout hatchery where we are required to follow disinfection protocols, etc. we are not allowed to stock clinically diseased fish, etc, etc. The trout eggs we sell to private growers are disease free...we go so far to regulate our local growers on who they can get eggs from. You can't just got to another state and bring in fish/eggs without approval. FWIW we have a pretty extensive list of banned hobby fish, native US fish, animals, etc, although our Fish Health Pathologists haven't touched the "disease aspect" of the hobby.....yet, but we educate people about not stocking aquarium fish in state waters.

My job is to grow healthy disease free fish, I went to school to do this and proceeded to get more education through similar jobs to do this. It is not a rich persons career, I make about $62,000 a year before taxes at 24 years deep in a mostly secure job. The things I do daily are necessary for fish heath and should be required at all levels of this industry.

Do wholesalers/flippers/big pet have actual biologists or fish specialists on staff? Shouldn't they?

I've seen strides in some grow out of species like regal tangs...this should be the industry standard and be something of pride to sell healthy animals.

If the aquarium industry was regulated like the aquafarming industry... We wouldn't see as many threads like this. On one hand, I HATE the thought of the govt. possibly regulating the SW fish trade out of existence. But on the other, I think it's the only real solution. These people aren't going to police themselves. Too greedy.

Something to think about is: why do hobbyist deal with ich so much but you never see it in the ocean? 20 years ago or so, I used to catch my own fish for my tank. Never even knew what ich was. Only heard about it when I got back in the hobby.

When they catch & scrape wild fish, the infection rate is usually between 30-40%. But the concentration of parasites on the fish is minimal; nothing like what you see in a glass box. A few bug bites. You are correct that fish pulled right out of the ocean are typically much healthier before they have to go through a disease infested wholesale facility. But they are doomed no matter what if cyanide was used to collect them.

 

[WVNed]

I am sorry you are having problems.

 

[Tuffyyyyy]

For this reason I plan on only purchasing my fish from marine collectors going forward. The peace of mind is going to be well worth the added cost.

 

[ScottR]

If the aquarium industry was regulated like the aquafarming industry... We wouldn't see as many threads like this. On one hand, I HATE the thought of the govt. possibly regulating the SW fish trade out of existence. But on the other, I think it's the only real solution. These people aren't going to police themselves. Too greedy.



When they catch & scrape wild fish, the infection rate is usually between 30-40%. But the concentration of parasites on the fish is minimal; nothing like what you see in a glass box. A few bug bites. You are correct that fish pulled right out of the ocean are typically much healthier before they have to go through a disease infested wholesale facility. But they are doomed no matter what if cyanide was used to collect them.

Whenever I buy fish, I go when my LFS gets their bulk shipments in so I can see the quality of them. In those giant bags, half the clowns and half the wrasses are dead. I can pretty much tell which fish were caught with cyanide and which weren’t. I can never get a sixline to last me more than a week before they die. It’s only a $5 fish but I won’t buy just because I don’t believe in the manor in which they catch these fish and I don’t want to support it.

 

[creativeballance]

Why do we accept that vendors selling sick animals is normal?

Many marine hobbyists these days are recommending a full quarantine, including prophylactic treatment for every animal we buy. Why? Because we’ve accepted that a large percentage of the animals we purchase are going to be sick.

Say I want a yellow tang: Quick trip to the internet… $70. Add in shipping, box charges, tax… $115. Those are actual numbers, btw, just pulled up a common vendor. Fish was collected, stored, and shipped several times to get to this point. Stressed? Of course. Then, when the fish arrives, we place it in a sterile environment, without a working bio filter. Maybe add bottled bacteria… but still, a very unnatural environment, likely with at least trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite in the water. Additional stress. Then we dump in copper, prazipro, whatever we decide is the best cocktail to eliminate whatever disease or parasite this fish might have. More stress.

And we wonder why so many fish die.

Or, we take our chances, dump it in, and roll the dice on infecting every fish in the tank.

There has got to be a better way. Some way to get healthy fishes. Corals without flatworms. Macro algae that isn’t full of aiptasia or bubble algae.

Is it just money? Hey, it’s not a cheap hobby. I get that. If I could pay $200 for that yellow tang and KNOW that it was healthy, I’d be happy to do that.

Now, what do we need to do to make that happen? Honestly, I don’t know, BUT I guarantee, the way to solve the problem is NOT to start by accepting that this is just the way things are.

It's kind of like how the gaming industry is now.
You buy a new game for a game that isn't playable, and they're using the paying customers as beta testers.

There's a LFS near by, that QT's and treats their stock before they sell it. The QT fish are visible and if you want to purchase it before QT is done, you can pick it up when the QT process is finished. I'd gladly pay an extra 10-20% more for the piece of mind that knowing my DT is healthy!

 

[creativeballance]

Most people want everything on the cheap. And fish flippers shipping via wholesalers provide just that. Now maybe you get a fish that has been at the wholesalers a week + eating, or maybe you get one that was rebagged the very same day + hasn't eaten in a week or two. Whether you QT or not, starting point is everything! And the only thing that's going to rein the industry in and force them to do right by these animals is govt. regulation. The same way the puppy mills are slowly being phased out of existence.

And the government is SOOOO good at regulating, right?

/sarcasm

 

[ingchr1]

For people that QT with medications go with a bare tank so it can be broken down and completely cleansed.

What risks are involved with not completely cleaning (assuming you mean some kind of disinfection)? Why can't the tank just be drained, maybe rinsed and scrubbed then put on the shelf for the next time? After the medication period there will be water changes for an observation period.

 

[Humblefish]

Whenever I buy fish, I go when my LFS gets their bulk shipments in so I can see the quality of them. In those giant bags, half the clowns and half the wrasses are dead. I can pretty much tell which fish were caught with cyanide and which weren’t. I can never get a sixline to last me more than a week before they die. It’s only a $5 fish but I won’t buy just because I don’t believe in the manor in which they catch these fish and I don’t want to support it.

So sad. There's a LFS in the Bay Area that gets in transshipped fish, and sells them right out of the bags with dirty water. The bags of fish are all on display, and whatever doesn't sell is allowed to die inside the bag. Can you imagine a pet store getting in a bunch of puppies or kittens, and treating them this way? Where's the outrage for fish??!

 

[S2G]

Yeah the thought of govt regulated sw fish makes me cringe.

 

[ScottR]

So sad. There's a LFS in the Bay Area that gets in transshipped fish, and sells them right out of the bags with dirty water. The bags of fish are all on display, and whatever doesn't sell is allowed to die inside the bag. Can you imagine a pet store getting in a bunch of puppies or kittens, and treating them this way? Where's the outrage for fish??!

I totally agree. I saw a blacktip reef shark that was roughly 2 feet long in tank that was just big enough to house it. Wish I took a pic. That was a hard one. For an animal that needs to swim to just to breathe...

 

[ScottR]

Yeah the thought of govt regulated sw fish makes me cringe.

Like CITES?

 

[Humblefish]

Yeah the thought of govt regulated sw fish makes me cringe.

Far from a good solution, but nothing will change without it. We are probably still 5-10 years away from our govt. caring about aquarium fish though. The more immediate threat is foreign governments banning or curtailing exports. We've gotten a little preview from Indonesia.

 

[S2G]

So sad. There's a LFS in the Bay Area that gets in transshipped fish, and sells them right out of the bags with dirty water. The bags of fish are all on display, and whatever doesn't sell is allowed to die inside the bag. Can you imagine a pet store getting in a bunch of puppies or kittens, and treating them this way? Where's the outrage for fish??!

That's what I don't get. Why are fish so flushable? I'm not a bleeding heart by any means but it's terrible like catching a catfish then just throwing it on the bank.

 

[Fourstars]

I think we need to do away with that 14 day guarantee. It would force these vendors to provide better quality or fall by the wayside. It gives these vendors providing garbage quality a crutch. There's a spray & pray mentality.

or maybe there should be no guarantee, since we’re the ones that paid for their long trip.?