Has anyone successfully had ich outbreak and managed it?

[Spare time]

I agree here. Low stress and heavy feeding has worked for me in past. I dont quarintine and never have. Ich is like a flu to us. If you are stressed and malnourished it may kill u. If you are healthy and well fed you will feel like crap a few days and get over it.

Breaking down the whole tank and catching them all and throwing them in hospital tank is more likely to kill them from sickened fish being stressed.

Like sauce said a uv sterilizer heavy varied diet and try not to mess around in tank for a couple weeks and they will be fine.

Ich isn't like the flu at all lol. Its not even remotely similar on any level.

 

[Spare time]

Ich management is just a person's way of justifying their laziness or lack of respect for the lives of the fish. I'm sorry but it just is. You are playing a guess who game of which fish may live and which may die simply because its not convenient to QT them. That, and that the fish are also likely carying other parasites and can bring even worse diseases in (i.e. velvet).

 

[OrionN]

Ich management is just a person's way of justifying their laziness or lack of respect for the lives of the fish. I'm sorry but it just is. You are playing a guess who game of which fish may live and which may die simply because it’s not convenient to QT them. That, and that the fish are also likely carying other parasites and can bring even worse diseases in (i.e. velvet).

Sorry but when someone thinks their way is the only way to do certain thing, they are almost always, 99.99% of the time, wrong.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

Ich management is just a person's way of justifying their laziness or lack of respect for the lives of the fish. I'm sorry but it just is. You are playing a guess who game of which fish may live and which may die simply because its not convenient to QT them. That, and that the fish are also likely carying other parasites and can bring even worse diseases in (i.e. velvet).

No thanks... What works for me may not be what works for you, but to bash another chosen path to husbandry is trash. I respect what you do, I just ask for the same.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry but when someone thinks their way is the only way to do certain thing, they are almost always, 99.99% of the time, wrong.

Except that they are correct - "ich management" is done by people who didn't quarantine properly, and then, it does not "manage" the other two in the triad of diseases that comprise about 80% of fish losses - Velvet and Neobenedenia.

And it does all boil down to impatience, lack of resources and/or laziness in regards to not quarantining.

The Association of Zoos and Aquariums mandates that all facilities follow the Association of Zoo Veterinarian's quarantine requirements, even for fish. Why do you think that is?

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

No thanks... What works for me may not be what works for you, but to bash another chosen path to husbandry is trash. I respect what you do, I just ask for the same.

Here is the issue from my perspective: it works for you. However, it will NOT work for 90% of the new aquarists. They read "just give the fish a good environment and they'll do well". Since they are new and impatient, they take the easy way out and try to follow what you do. Then, I end up having to pick up the pieces when their tank has a major epizootic. Preventative quarantine is a whole lot more effective than treating fish after an outbreak has begun.

I see this all the time, same with what I call the "chicken soup syndrome" - "just feed your fish well and they'll be fine".....then new hobbyists think that food is medication and end up losing their fish.

In the end, you'll not come to me for advice if what you are doing works for you. However, it makes my job a lot harder if you try to sell new aquarists on the idea, and then it doesn't work for them. For them, a proper quarantine is going to solve about 80% of their problems.

Jay

 

[OrionN]

Except that I don’t QT fish. I do QT corals, clams and anemones very well indeed. I don’t loose fish and I would bet that my fish are as healthy as any captive fish. The color and heath of my fish rival that of many wild fish. I am not lazy, I don’t lack resources and I have plenty of patience.

The Association of Zoos and Aquariums mandate that quarantine is a must because a lot of their fish died without quarantine. Why do you think that is? It is because not one person do everything is the aquarium there. The director and a few people higher up knows what to do, while a lot of the worker bees that actually does the work have no idea, or at least not anywhere near as knowable about the animals they keep.
An accomplish Reefer keep better reef aquarium than the average public aquarium.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

Here is the issue from my perspective: it works for you. However, it will NOT work for 90% of the new aquarists. They read "just give the fish a good environment and they'll do well". Since they are new and impatient, they take the easy way out and try to follow what you do. Then, I end up having to pick up the pieces when their tank has a major epizootic. Preventative quarantine is a whole lot more effective than treating fish after an outbreak has begun.

I see this all the time, same with what I call the "chicken soup syndrome" - "just feed your fish well and they'll be fine".....then new hobbyists think that food is medication and end up losing their fish.

In the end, you'll not come to me for advice if what you are doing works for you. However, it makes my job a lot harder if you try to sell new aquarists on the idea, and then it doesn't work for them. For them, a proper quarantine is going to solve about 80% of their problems.

Jay

I respect your points to this as you are the career fish guru due to what your life long career choice in the aquatics industry have taught you. I also simply counter with that it's ultimately up to the individual aquarist to make the decision on how to proceed with choices of husbandry. I chose to offer a 'non conventional' viewpoint, I get verbally lashed for it. Is my way the 'right way' to do things maybe not by some people's standards, but it is a viable way to do it and the livestock are flourishing just fine IME. I purely make a point that what works for me may NOT work for you. Again I emphasize, in the end it's not up to you or me, it's up to that individual to figure out how to best proceed with the information that's @ hand. As I said above I respect everyone else's viewpoint, I just ask for the same in return. It would be different if I said OMG don't quarantine it's the devil, etc... But I never suggested that. I merely laid out what I did and didn't do and what did and didn't work in my case.

its up to the INDIVIDUAL to make their own, educated decision in the end.


I need coffee & sleep

 

[Enderg60]

Sure many times before I QT stuff. I had ich in my system and removing the fish was a no go. I would seek out tangs that had already had ich in hopes they had a bit of immunity built up.

I had a few outbreaks, all I ever did was raise the temp to 84 and feed more.

I had a few losses but not a whole tank crash or anything.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I respect your points to this as you are the career fish guru due to what your life long career choice in the aquatics industry have taught you. I also simply counter with that it's ultimately up to the individual aquarist to make the decision on how to proceed with choices of husbandry. I chose to offer a 'non conventional' viewpoint, I get verbally lashed for it. Is my way the 'right way' to do things maybe not by some people's standards, but it is a viable way to do it and the livestock are flourishing just fine IME. I purely make a point that what works for me may NOT work for you. Again I emphasize, in the end it's not up to you or me, it's up to that individual to figure out how to best proceed with the information that's @ hand. As I said above I respect everyone else's viewpoint, I just ask for the same in return. It would be different if I said OMG don't quarantine it's the devil, etc... But I never suggested that. I merely laid out what I did and didn't do and what did and didn't work in my case.

its up to the INDIVIDUAL to make their own, educated decision in the end.


I need coffee & sleep

The trouble is that entry level aquarists do not have enough information to make their own informed decision and will often opt for the easiest solution.
Jay

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

The trouble is that entry level aquarists do not have enough information to make their own informed decision and will often opt for the easiest solution.
Jay

Then how is that my or your fault. If the beginner aquarist chooses not to actively educate themselves in the beginning they are doomed anyway. Look at how many you give advice to and they don't take it and there is major livestock die off anyway .

This screams the old proverb about leading a horse to water and etc, etc...

 

[lion king]

Here is the issue from my perspective: it works for you. However, it will NOT work for 90% of the new aquarists. They read "just give the fish a good environment and they'll do well". Since they are new and impatient, they take the easy way out and try to follow what you do. Then, I end up having to pick up the pieces when their tank has a major epizootic. Preventative quarantine is a whole lot more effective than treating fish after an outbreak has begun.

I see this all the time, same with what I call the "chicken soup syndrome" - "just feed your fish well and they'll be fine".....then new hobbyists think that food is medication and end up losing their fish.

In the end, you'll not come to me for advice if what you are doing works for you. However, it makes my job a lot harder if you try to sell new aquarists on the idea, and then it doesn't work for them. For them, a proper quarantine is going to solve about 80% of their problems.

Jay

But what about all the fish that die in these people's qt, especially those using prophylactic treatments. Would you be the one recommending people to use copper on those "erroneous" white spots you mentioned earlier. It's like we are living in an alternate universe. I can read the experiences right here on this board about the number of people killing their fish in qt, what I see in real life is even more extreme. Why do the lfs tell me the people with with qts kill more fish than the people that don't. I do an observational qt, but the one thing I have learned. It is truly staggering the amount of fish I have seen others kill using prophylactic copper in their qt, treating every torn fin with antibiotics, I can definitely say their success rate is less than 50%. This hobby is not absolute.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Jay,
The large majority of public aquariums use all sorts of methods not available to the public. The idea that one size fits all is why there is so much abrasion between the always prophylactic crowd and those who have not had the same success and use other methods. I am more than a little tired at the 'my way is the only way attitude' that you and spare time exude every time you show up. I respect your advice and have sought it out even recently for the health of a long term resident of my little aquarium. That said, the biosecurity you mention goes right out the window at the many Coastal aquariums that use a pump and dump method for filtration in their systems. The only filtration of the incoming water is sand filtration, U.V. and temperature adjustment. Now convince me that there is no possibility of some parasites slipping in with the fresh saltwater supply. So even thought the fish have experienced prophylactic treatment they are subjected to possibly being exposed through the water supply. Now maybe the cold water acts as another line of biosecurity on the incoming water. Again this is not possible for the hobbiest on the same scale.

How about access to diagnostics that the average hobbiest does not have? Proper treatment demands proper diagnosis. If you as a person were exposed to biosecurity by health care professionals you would surely die after a course of preventative treatment that was not indicated by proper diagnosis. It is akin to being given chemotherapy when no cancer exists. Your prognosis will not be good. Most preventative medicine is around holistic methods that work in harmony with the body to reduce the incident of disease. These include proper diet, exercise, freshwater and air, and mental health. These are indeed preventative and successful. If you believe in evolution or creation, then you must accent to this being part of the commonality of all creatures and their healthy lives.

Many of us with long term success have been unable to successfully implement prophylactic treatment without higher loss rates in the population of fish we care for. As a result we found ways that are more holistic and work with the fishes own protective mechanisms for our success. It has worked for many and it is not lazy. It requires observation of what a healthy fish looks like so that you can recognize abnormal patterns in an unhealthy fish at the purchase level. I have seen many unhealthy fish in public aquariums in various places around the world. Is that an indictment of public aquariums? No it is not, it is just a much larger scale than the hobbiest aquarium. Your experience is shaped by the requirements of your previous employment and you must admit to a bias as a result of that experience. I admit to a bias as the result of my experience. In many ways we cannot understand that the world's oceans are teaming with life where no biosecurity exists and yet they thrive and some die. But for the most part they thrive in natural conditions and the large majority have stable populations. Some of us want to more closely follow what we observe in nature and that gave rise to the reef hobby. Fish in the wild live and die everyday. It is a fact that is beyond human control. We live and die everyday and that is a fact beyond human control. It is part of the rhythm of life and some of us prefer to learn how to adapt to that rhythm for best results. It is never lazy and requires lots of attention. Given the chance we could learn from each other in these diverse camps of experience.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay,
The large majority of public aquariums use all sorts of methods not available to the public. The idea that one size fits all is why there is so much abrasion between the always prophylactic crowd and those who have not had the same success and use other methods. I am more than a little tired at the 'my way is the only way attitude' that you and spare time exude every time you show up. I respect your advice and have sought it out even recently for the health of a long term resident of my little aquarium. That said, the biosecurity you mention goes right out the window at the many Coastal aquariums that use a pump and dump method for filtration in their systems. The only filtration of the incoming water is sand filtration, U.V. and temperature adjustment. Now convince me that there is no possibility of some parasites slipping in with the fresh saltwater supply. So even thought the fish have experienced prophylactic treatment they are subjected to possibly being exposed through the water supply. Now maybe the cold water acts as another line of biosecurity on the incoming water. Again this is not possible for the hobbiest on the same scale.

How about access to diagnostics that the average hobbiest does not have? Proper treatment demands proper diagnosis. If you as a person were exposed to biosecurity by health care professionals you would surely die after a course of preventative treatment that was not indicated by proper diagnosis. It is akin to being given chemotherapy when no cancer exists. Your prognosis will not be good. Most preventative medicine is around holistic methods that work in harmony with the body to reduce the incident of disease. These include proper diet, exercise, freshwater and air, and mental health. These are indeed preventative and successful. If you believe in evolution or creation, then you must accent to this being part of the commonality of all creatures and their healthy lives.

Many of us with long term success have been unable to successfully implement prophylactic treatment without higher loss rates in the population of fish we care for. As a result we found ways that are more holistic and work with the fishes own protective mechanisms for our success. It has worked for many and it is not lazy. It requires observation of what a healthy fish looks like so that you can recognize abnormal patterns in an unhealthy fish at the purchase level. I have seen many unhealthy fish in public aquariums in various places around the world. Is that an indictment of public aquariums? No it is not, it is just a much larger scale than the hobbiest aquarium. Your experience is shaped by the requirements of your previous employment and you must admit to a bias as a result of that experience. I admit to a bias as the result of my experience. In many ways we cannot understand that the world's oceans are teaming with life where no biosecurity exists and yet they thrive and some die. But for the most part they thrive in natural conditions and the large majority have stable populations. Some of us want to more closely follow what we observe in nature and that gave rise to the reef hobby. Fish in the wild live and die everyday. It is a fact that is beyond human control. We live and die everyday and that is a fact beyond human control. It is part of the rhythm of life and some of us prefer to learn how to adapt to that rhythm for best results. It is never lazy and requires lots of attention. Given the chance we could learn from each other in these diverse camps of experience.

I actually developed the quarantine protocol here from the very same one I use at public aquariums. The only difference is understanding that most home aquarists don’t have access to microscopes. Other than that, the methods are identical.

It has to do with “best practices” and that isn’t just me saying that - as I mentioned, the AZA and AAZV both have quarantine mandates.

Jay

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I actually developed the quarantine protocol here from the very same one I use at public aquariums. The only difference is understanding that most home aquarists don’t have access to microscopes. Other than that, the methods are identical.

It has to do with “best practices” and that isn’t just me saying that - as I mentioned, the AZA and AAZV both have quarantine mandates.

Jay

As I mentioned we all have a bias based on our various experiences. What do you think about biosecurity with the pump and dump systems many of the Coastal aquariums use? Is it just dilution even though you have high density holding systems or did I miss something in the design?

I can understand your personal attachment to a system you designed and had great success with. Perhaps you can understand our smaller scale success in our smaller systems.

 

[nereefpat]

If an aquarium, including a public one, uses natural seawater, it might as well not quarantine livestock? Is that what you're saying?

 

[lion king]

It is not lazy to provide a premium diet of live and fresh foods, to maintain optimum water quality, and provide an appropriate house, not crowded, limited stress, and separation between healthy and sick fish. Lazy is to rely on chemicals as an exchange for those things I mentioned.

This chemical solution is the same solutions so many humans use for themselves.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I'll start by saying I'm specifically interested in those of you that have multiple tangs, had an ich outbreak and didn't do anything asides from normal routine maintenance and had the ich go away by itself. How many deaths did you experience, if any? I want to know about those that were successful and unsuccessful. Specifically

1. How old was your tank
2. Size of your tank
3. How many tangs/ ich prone fish
4. What did you do if anything do manage ich

Managing ich is certainly a lot easier if you only have clownfish, wrasses, gobies and other ich resistant species. It's very hard for them to get overwhelmed by ich unless they're unhealthy anyways. Personally I've always chickened out when it comes to managing ich. I said I'd manage it. Last about three days before I pulled everything out to treat. I've never successfully treated all fish without some dying. Particularly wrasses that don't handle copper well.

Appreciate any and all experiences you've all had!

Its sort of a hard question as disease can occur in a tank of any age and Disease is often on US, not the fish. IU have near 2 dozen tangs and Most have gotten velvet over the years opposed to ich. It is accusatory by many to say tangs are ich magnets- They are not- AGAIN, disease is on us, not the fish and often due to poor water quality, overstocking, stress and poor diet. This should detail what I do with 22 tangs- Water quality management and diet, as prevention is more effective than any medication.
I see too often not only people misdiagnosing disease but also putting the wrong meds in their tank, often something that would never work even for freshwater fish or reading to many forums and trying to balance one good method which counteracts against them.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

As I mentioned we all have a bias based on our various experiences. What do you think about biosecurity with the pump and dump systems many of the Coastal aquariums use? Is it just dilution even though you have high density holding systems or did I miss something in the design?

I can understand your personal attachment to a system you designed and had great success with. Perhaps you can understand our smaller scale success in our smaller systems.

Dump and fill facilities are not all the same. Monterey Bay uses dump and fill for their local species, but not their exotics. They don’t quarantine their local specimens, but they do their exotics. They have an off site holding facility for that.

Jay

 

[Spare time]

But what about all the fish that die in these people's qt, especially those using prophylactic treatments. Would you be the one recommending people to use copper on those "erroneous" white spots you mentioned earlier. It's like we are living in an alternate universe. I can read the experiences right here on this board about the number of people killing their fish in qt, what I see in real life is even more extreme. Why do the lfs tell me the people with with qts kill more fish than the people that don't. I do an observational qt, but the one thing I have learned. It is truly staggering the amount of fish I have seen others kill using prophylactic copper in their qt, treating every torn fin with antibiotics, I can definitely say their success rate is less than 50%. This hobby is not absolute.

Fish dying in QT is likely because they were introduced to the medicines too late, at too low of a level, or the keeper failed to manage some other aspect (stress, oxygen, ammonia, etc.). Your lfs likely tells you that qt kills because they are wanting to sell you fish and not have you wait 45 days between every purchase. LFS are not a good source of unbiased information. They are salesmen and people foolishly take their advice as honest information. If an LFS were to give people proper advice, their sales would drop across all of their livestock.