Has Anyone tried Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium or Carbo-Calcium

[reefwiser]

RajV will talk to Lou at Macna as I always do to find out the info.

 

[RajV]

RajV will talk to Lou at Macna as I always do to find out the info.

Thanks I appreciate it

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Carbocalcium has a pretty small carbon dosing effect because the formate used had much less usable energy than vinegar (acetate) or vodka (ethanol).

 

[Orm Embar]

After reading these threads, I decided to start using calcium formate - I bought a 250 ml bottle of Tropic Marin's All-In-Reef (calcium formate plus some trace minerals). My rationale: a one part balanced additive that didn't precipitate or require apparatus like kalkwasser was appealing, and I don't have room for a doser in my sump. I went from kalkwasser in the ATO (precipitation and clogging of ATO) to kalkwasser in a dripper with an IV roll clamp (a pain to adjust and where the drip rate changed a lot as the container emptied) to adding straight 2 part (alkalinity in the ATO, calcium would be added in the sump near the return pump but with my high calciums it's still 450 after months of just alkalinity additions - it started around 500-510 with my Fritz salt mix). If this doesn't work, I'll probably go back to 2 part with alk in the ATO and calcium in the sump.

Assuming my calculations are accurate - a 250 ml bottle of this stuff has 1,400 dKH of alkalinity. That means that every ml has 5.6 dKH (presumably per gallon), or for a 43 gallon system (32 gallon tank + sump), 0.13 dKH per ml of additive. Since my alk demand is currently 0.5 dKH in 8 days (9.1 dropping to 8.6 per my Salifert test kit), that's roughly 4 ml of additive weekly.

Cost-wise, that works out to 20 cents per week (with the 250 ml bottle from BRS), or 60 cents per week if I use my older 1.5 dKH alkalinity drop per week. It also means that a 250 ml bottle will last me 60+ weeks, or more than a year (at 0.5 dKH per week).

Not bad for something you just measure and dump in the sump; no precipitation that I saw (although I admit that I didn't look very closely). We'll see how it goes.

I'm also not sure that simple liquid CarboCalcium (same without the trace minerals) isn't a better idea, since you can add trace stuff separately.

My concerns about this method:
1) I don't particularly want to carbon dose, as I'd like to run with somewhat higher nutrients (I could prune my chaeto, which I do need to do) as I like soft corals/zoas/Ricordea/macroalgae in the display. That's also why I picked this over calcium acetate
2) Cost, although for my needs it isn't much at all. I don't know how this would scale compared to other commercial additives; I suspect that the cost of calcium flake and baking soda or Mrs. Wage's would be dramatically cheaper in the long run

 

[RajV]

After reading these threads, I decided to start using calcium formate - I bought a 250 ml bottle of Tropic Marin's All-In-Reef (calcium formate plus some trace minerals). My rationale: a one part balanced additive that didn't precipitate or require apparatus like kalkwasser was appealing, and I don't have room for a doser in my sump. I went from kalkwasser in the ATO (precipitation and clogging of ATO) to kalkwasser in a dripper with an IV roll clamp (a pain to adjust and where the drip rate changed a lot as the container emptied) to adding straight 2 part (alkalinity in the ATO, calcium would be added in the sump near the return pump but with my high calciums it's still 450 after months of just alkalinity additions - it started around 500-510 with my Fritz salt mix). If this doesn't work, I'll probably go back to 2 part with alk in the ATO and calcium in the sump.

Assuming my calculations are accurate - a 250 ml bottle of this stuff has 1,400 dKH of alkalinity. That means that every ml has 5.6 dKH (presumably per gallon), or for a 43 gallon system (32 gallon tank + sump), 0.13 dKH per ml of additive. Since my alk demand is currently 0.5 dKH in 8 days (9.1 dropping to 8.6 per my Salifert test kit), that's roughly 4 ml of additive weekly.

Cost-wise, that works out to 20 cents per week (with the 250 ml bottle from BRS), or 60 cents per week if I use my older 1.5 dKH alkalinity drop per week. It also means that a 250 ml bottle will last me 60+ weeks, or more than a year (at 0.5 dKH per week).

Not bad for something you just measure and dump in the sump; no precipitation that I saw (although I admit that I didn't look very closely). We'll see how it goes.

I'm also not sure that simple liquid CarboCalcium (same without the trace minerals) isn't a better idea, since you can add trace stuff separately.

My concerns about this method:
1) I don't particularly want to carbon dose, as I'd like to run with somewhat higher nutrients (I could prune my chaeto, which I do need to do) as I like soft corals/zoas/Ricordea/macroalgae in the display. That's also why I picked this over calcium acetate
2) Cost, although for my needs it isn't much at all. I don't know how this would scale compared to other commercial additives; I suspect that the cost of calcium flake and baking soda or Mrs. Wage's would be dramatically cheaper in the long run

How long since you switched ? Can you comment on any visible or measurable difference? Are you able to maintain low nitrate and phospate? How are you dealing with it?

 

[Orm Embar]

How long since you switched ? Can you comment on any visible or measurable difference? Are you able to maintain low nitrate and phospate? How are you dealing with it?

I have few answers for you at the present -

1) I started with it yesterday
2) I typically run low nitrate/phosphate from chaeto
3) no visible changes

I plan on pruning my chaeto shortly, which will probably change my parameters more than the dosing would. I may try to be more precise in the coming weeks as to nitrate/phosphate levels . . .

 

[RajV]

I have few answers for you at the present -

1) I started with it yesterday
2) I typically run low nitrate/phosphate from chaeto
3) no visible changes

I plan on pruning my chaeto shortly, which will probably change my parameters more than the dosing would. I may try to be more precise in the coming weeks as to nitrate/phosphate levels . . .

Good luck , do keep updating

 

[Keiffer the reefer]

I decided to give it a shot and have been using for about two weeks now. Couple of observations:

1. The carbon dosing from this product has generated a noticeable increase in white film on the glass. Not drastic, but noticeable. In addition to the carbo calcium, I am (and have been) dosing 15 mL of vinegar per day into a 60 gallon system. I’m dosing 10mL/day of carbo calcium

2. It lowers the pH a bit. I am happy about this. I dose kalk at night and carbo calcium during the day as part of an effort to minimize pH swings. I was previously dosing sodium bicarbonate during the day.

3. This stuff is more concentrated than typical two part. I was dosing 30 mL/day of sodium bicarbonate and am dosing 10mL/day of carbo calcium to keep up with Alk.

4. My combination of kalk and carbo calcium produces a balance in calcium and alkalinity levels.

I’m considering the carbo calcium an improvement to my system, so far. No noticeable changes in the health of the livestock that I can tell.

 

[JohnMzreef]

Hello, I am interested in trying carbocalcium in my 29g mixed reef. What I am wondering is whether a protein skimmer is necessary because of the organic carbon component. I have a very low fish load and do not skim.

 

[JohnMzreef]

Hello, I am interested in trying carbocalcium in my 29g mixed reef. What I am wondering is whether a protein skimmer is necessary because of the organic carbon component. I have a very low fish load and do not skim.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The answer depends on many factors (e.g., your daily need for calcium and alkalinity), but its ability to drive bacterial growth will be substantially lower than dosing a similar amount of calcium acetate and might be a fine thing to try.

FWIW, I also do not concur with the adage that one must skim if one uses organic carbon dosing.

 

[JohnMzreef]

Just a follow up> I have been using the carbo calcium for over a month and am happy with it. I dose it (3 ml) in the evening and see no effect on ph. I am now (manually) dosing much less 2 part solution in the morning. Tank is looking good. There may be a slight increase in white bacterial film in a few locations - nothing troubling. I think this is a good product especially for nano reef keepers who like to manually dose.

 

[FLSharkvictim]

Many thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley, for clearing this up!

 

[Orm Embar]

Update: I have been using All-For-Reef with a substantial drop in my alkalinity (and presumably calcium) despite my weekly additions with rare misses. I have discovered that Tropic Marin has a calculator, which estimates roughly 4x what I have been using for replacement (they recommend roughly 16 mL while I have been using 4 mL). I wonder if it's a /Liter vs /Gallon error in my calculations.

Anyway, here's the link (https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/en/minerals/all-for-reef.html#open-5)- be careful with your calculations and monitoring!

 

[siggy]

Hello, I see this gets some use so I thought I would add this to the Mix. I was at a Swap and received 2 free bottles of I/O Marine stabilize. It states Time release replenish of PH and Alkalinity. Im guessing this is geared towards a softy tank. But what I am curious about is the Time Release of Alk and how they might suspend that for latter consumption. This is a first for me. BTW I dose so I really have no use for it...Or do I?

Product No. IN05310

Find a Store
Marine aquarium chemistry can change quickly with normal biological processes; Marine Stabilizer prevents unhealthy fluctuations. This simple-to-use weekly additive eliminates water care guesswork. The addition of vitamins and minerals helps keep fish active and vibrant. Prevents fluctuations in multiple chemical parameters.

• Prevents unhealthy fluctuations in water quality that can result from normal biological processes
• Use weekly for consistent, healthy water – no mixing or complicated reactors
• Added vitamins and minerals help keep fish active and vibrant
• Instantly detoxifies heavy metals, chlorine and chloramines
• Use 10 mL per 10 gallons of water

 

[Orm Embar]

Another update on All-For-Reef (calcium formate plus trace minerals) - I'm about to order another bottle, and possibly a dosing pump to automate additions as I keep forgetting to add it manually. There are some small, light brown clumps on the bottom of the bottle - I've read that someone else had the same thing happen to them. I don't know if it's mold or something else, or if it's harmful. I haven't had any issues using the same bottle, though. I'm hoping that it's not harmful, as I do like the product and I can easily add it to my sump (or ATO) quickly without any precipitate forming.

I do find that the Bettix bottle format is very easy; if I ever manually dose this (or 2 part), Bettix bottles are definitely worth it in my opinion!

I have also found out today that, apparently, Tropic Marin recommends K+ trace additives with their All-For-Reef product. Aside from testing with Triton or similar, I don't know of a way to determine trace element usage.

 

[RajV]

@Orm Embar would love to hear your progress. Something interesting from an earlier post from you caught my attention. You say "presumably" your calcium is being consumed proportionately . Have you measured over a few days your ca and alkalinity drop ? It appeared as though you are monitoring alk and dosing . Not all tanks consume at that absolute proportion . Given this , you may land up with excess ca or even mg . These are 2 part additives bundled into one , therefore I feel there needs to be a checkpoint in the cycle to understand overall chemistry

 

[Orm Embar]

@Orm Embar would love to hear your progress. Something interesting from an earlier post from you caught my attention. You say "presumably" your calcium is being consumed proportionately . Have you measured over a few days your ca and alkalinity drop ? It appeared as though you are monitoring alk and dosing . Not all tanks consume at that absolute proportion . Given this , you may land up with excess ca or even mg . These are 2 part additives bundled into one , therefore I feel there needs to be a checkpoint in the cycle to understand overall chemistry

Good question - what I have meant to do (and haven't yet!) is to monitor my alkalinity consumption for my current tank, and also to see if it keeps my calcium stable. My understanding from what Randy has said in the past is that calcium and alkalinity are generally consumed in equal proportions (so a balanced additive would work the overwhelming majority of the time), but that calcium has a tendency to drift up slightly (magnesium carbonate being utilized a small fraction fo the time) therefore possibly needing occasional corrections.

The magnesium question is also a good one - in my use of All-For-Reef, my magnesium has remained stable in the 1300's from a baseline of roughly 1350. Since my target is 1300-1400, I haven't needed magnesium replacement or switching to a purely Ca/alk product like CarboCalcium that doesn't have magnesium to prevent it from going too high.

 

[Lou Ekus]

There are some small, light brown clumps on the bottom of the bottle - I've read that someone else had the same thing happen to them. I don't know if it's mold or something else, or if it's harmful. I haven't had any issues using the same bottle, though

Many of the slightly older bottles of both All-For-Reef and Cabocalcium have a small amount of undissolved solids on the bottom of the bottle. This is because the solution is super saturated. The solids are not harmful and do not represent any kind of growth. The product is perfectly fine. And can be used 3cactly as directed with no problem. These undissolved solids will not hurt anything. This left over undissolved solid shows up less in newer bottles.

 

[MrObscura]

I was running kalk and decided to try their all for reef. But it was a failure in my tank. Might even lose an acro or two.

I just couldn't dial it in. Alk swung all over and even adjusting the dose often wouldn't have the expected result due to the way the stuff works. Which is also why I think it didn't work for me.

The Alk in these products isn't directly introduced into the tank but rather what's dosed is then metabolized by organisms in the tank to produce the Alk components. So in my experience, a day after lowering dosage I'd get a larger spike than I had before lowering it due to a bunch of carbonant suddenly becoming available.

I contacted Tropic Marin and received a email from a phd on the staff and he said they're not sure what organisms in the tank are actually responsible for metabolizing their product into Alk. He said It's either free bacteria in the tank, bacteria housed within the corals, or the corals themselves. Either way variations in the rate of metabolization caused swings in my tank. Maybe only being a 10g played a role? Idk...

Long story short, great in theory, too inconsistant in practice. At least in my tank. I ordered a 2nd x1 doser and switched to b ionic.