Heartbreak-Need help :(

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Sashaka, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Hello All. Let me apologize. I’ve been lurking in the background, reading posts on R2R for several years now. I’ve learned a lot from the discussions. Thank you all for sharing what you know with newbies like me!

    I’m not much of a talker…and I don’t feel I’ve gained enough knowledge to help others yet, so I’ve been content to read and learn, until now. I have a few urgent questions I need answers to and I can’t seem to find answers quickly through my own research efforts. I hope you will be able to help. My questions are:

    1. Can I use Furan 2 with CopperPower safely? I know many antibiotics can be used with copper, except the sulfur based ones, but I don’t know if Furan 2 is one of the safe antibiotics.

    2. After an outbreak of an unknown pathogen or possibly multiple pathogens, should I breakdown my sump that is still circulating my live rock, and a large block and some balls of MarinePure? Should I bleach all sand, rocks, and start over to make sure any pathogen that may not be obligatory (needs a fish as a host) are truly dead and gone forever?

    Tanks

    29Coralife BioCube (reef) with upgraded lighting, large skimmer, and 10gal sump added: Currently cycling after complete breakdown to get rid of a severe outbreak of aiptasia anemones and bryopsis algae. All rock was bleached and new sand added. Ammonia 0, nitrite very high, nitrate readings starting.

    29 gal FOWLR with HOB skimmer and 2 HOB filters-one with bio wheel for mechanical filtration: Livestock are 2 very young lightning maroon clowns, 1 yellow clown goby, 1 lizard fish, 1 fairy wrasse, and 1 algae blenny. Temporarily added to tank: 1 coral beauty and one melenarus wrasse. They will be added to one of the larger tanks after treating. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5-10 with water changes at 20

    75gal FOWLR with 15gal sump and oversized skimmer: Livestock: 1 porcupine puffer, 1 yellow tang, 1 Vrolik’s wrasse, trio of lyretailed anthias, 1 engineer goby, 1 flame hawkfish, and two neon wrasses (the n. wrasses were freebies that came with the recently purchased/used 180gal tank - one of the n. wrasses will go into the lightning clown tank or possibly the BioCube as the two neon wrasses do not get along). Note: This tank required frequent water changes before it was turned into a sick tank due to high nitrates (likely because I tend to overfeed). The tank is currently cycling as the sump was taken offline and it contained most of the live rock. There were no problems with ammonia or nitrite before breaking it down to become a sick tank. (I know this sick tank is overstocked but most fish will be moving to the larger 180 gal tank when it is cycled and they are deemed healthy). Some of the fish will remain in the 75gal, though I’m not sure which ones yet. Truly, I’m more concerned about getting everyone healthy right now.

    29 sick tank: Currently housing 2 freebies (dot/dash butterfly and an unknown sand sifting goby) that came with the 180gal tank. I recently had to add my o. clownfish and a small majestic angel a few weeks ago to this tank as well. The majestic angel and butterfly (if they make it) are destined for the 180gal tank. The o. clownfish and maybe the freebie goby will be added or returned to the BioCube. The tank is cycling: Water changes every few days…cycle is starting…ammonia 0, nitrites are detectable about every 2-3 days, so 75% to 80% water changes are completed.

    20 gal quarantine tank: Currently housing 1 longnose hawkfish, 1 serpent starfish (starfish is another freebie that came with 180 gal tank), 1 pompom crab, 1 porcelain crab, assorted snails and all the coral from the 29BioCube. The o.clownfish and hawkfish belong to the BioCube and will be returned when it is fully cycled. I may add one of the neon wrasses or the unknown sand sifting goby to the BioCube later. This tank has been up and running about 1 and a half years. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 2-5. 10gal water changes every two weeks to keep other parameters in check.

    As mentioned earlier, I recently purchased and will be setting up my puffer's upgraded home, the 180gal Craig’s List FOWLR with 40gal sump. I should be finished building the stand for it this week and hope to set up it next week to start fishless cycle with ammonia and bacteria boosts.

    I’m going through salt like crazy! :0.

    Sashaka
    P.S. 180gal freebie fish came with ick and CopperPower treatment was initiated in sick tank; newly purchased blue tang from large online distributor added to quarantine tank with newly purchased majestic angel were both observed to be sick after unboxing. What luck I'm having! Tang died two days after unboxing. The rest of quarantine fish were moved to the CopperPower sick tank to be treated with the freebie fish. After 2 weeks, CopperPower was still not working on majestic angel. CopperPower seemed to be working on most fish in 75gal. CP treatment was started in 29gal sick tank, but as wrasses are sensitive to CP treatment, the neon wrasses were moved to 78gal CopperPower tank to continue treatment. What a stupid move!! I just infected the 75gal with whatever is resistant to the copper in the 29gal sick tank! Ugh!! I didn't have another sick tank to setup, so I just wasn't thinking straight. :(
     
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  2. aykwm

    aykwm Research Addict! R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Welcome to Reef2Reef
    1.You can use Furan-2 safely with copper.

    2. You can go fallow for 76 days, that is the longest ich strain found scientifically (its 72 days+ few days in order to complete the rest of the cycle as safety zone), other parasites have shorter life cycle so by 76 days everything should be clear (except for very rare parasites including uronema. If you want to do it faster, you can break down the whole tank and disinfect it using bleach or vinegar and start over again. It is labour intensive process but the tank should be up and running again within 2-4 weeks and this way you will make sure everything is gone and its a new fresh tank. If you want to do this process make sure its the whole tank, not only the sump, even the DT itself should be dry for couple of days and every equipment is disinfected properly.


    Im unfamiliar with copper power, but it is mentioned to dose at 2.5 ppm, so I assume it is some sort of chelated copper. Make sure to maintain the appropriate dose and always check the copper levels in the tank. I assume API copper test kit should be fine to test the copper.

    What is your current setup in the sick (hospital) tank. Make sure you dont have LR/Sand/ceramic media or any porous media that might lead the copper levels to fluctuate.

    Best of luck with the treatment.
     
  3. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    ^^ Agree; Copper Power is just another form of chelated copper. Probably as good as using Coppersafe (I know several people who use Copper Power with success.)

    As mentioned above, the recommended therapeutic level (2.5 ppm) is a little higher for some reason.
     
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  4. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    agree on all fronts again with the above.

    Thanks for the compliments, we are glad to help!
     
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  5. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Thank you for getting back to me. I added the 1st treatment of Furan2 to the 75 gal sick tank. I know the yellow tang needs an antibiotic. I just hope the Furan2 will work as it is the only one I have enough for the 75 gal sick tank. It is advertised as working better in lower ph tanks, so crossing my fingers!

    I am worried about rare parasites such as uronema because the online store that I bought the fish from could not tell me what was wrong with the fish, and the angel did not respond to the CopperPower, which is what I've always used successfully before with new fish. Still, the fish do not have wounds, and all the pictures I've looked at of uronema infected fish seem to develop wounds as the pathogen eats away at the flesh. I suspect Brooklynella as it didn't respond to the CopperPower. I don't know if Book can live without a fish host. Anyone know?

    I've already broken down the big tank as the 75 gal used to be a grow out for the bigger fish and a MD. I removed sand, rocks, decorations and unhooked the sump. You're right. It WAS a big job, but I had too many fish that needed treating and not enough sick tanks or the space for more tanks. If I do any more dismantling and disinfecting, it will be the sump and its contents along with the 30gal pail I have the live sand and some rocks circulating with a powerhead. The job finish breaking these down won't be as tough as the tank was to break down. Still, I think I may keep the sand and live rock circulating in the sump-fishless-for 76 days as AYKWN suggests rather than bleach, dry, and recycle...unless... Does anyone know if flukes, intestinal worms or Brooklynella can survive without fish? Maybe I should treat the sump with something to be sure. Thoughts? Suggestions?

    For my 75 gal sick tank I have a small bowl of sand in it for the wrasse, several kitchen coffee cups as houses for specific fish such as the maroon clown which likes to host in a cave (I figured if the cups are coated and don't stain with coffee then they likely don't absorb (thoughts?), two sponge filters, a double biowheel HOB filter with just floss to filter-no carbon- and various sized PVC pipes for hiding and sleeping. Again, this tank was the MD, but is was broken down to bare bottom hospital tank. I check the copper level everyday and it seems to stay consistent.

    As I mentioned, the API test kit that is used with CopperPower is VERY difficult to read. My LFS called Seachem to see if their multi level copper test kit would work with CopperPower and Seachem's response was that it only worked with their products. Seachem's reasoning was that copper test kits are color coded for each specific product. As results depend on color codes that can vary between products, using a test kit designed for a different copper product could result in erroneous color codes and readings. It makes sense. So much for the YouTube video I watched of someone demonstrating using Seachem's multi level copper test kit with CopperSafe or CopperPower (I forget which product he used)!

    For the 29gal sick tank, I took out the CopperPower because the majestic angel was not getting better after 2 weeks. I started CP treatment yesterday. This morning, the butterfly didn't eat. It was eating like a little piggy while in the CopperPower treatment. I can't win! there is a bit of good news though...the majestic angel seems to be responding/perking up in the CP treatment since this morning. It even ate energetically (first time since I got it!). I guess I'll have to watch the butterfly close and lower the dosage if it doesn't start eating by tomorrow morning. If it seems to still be struggling tonight, I'll do a partial water change to lower the dosage sooner. I've read small angels and butterflies don't do well at the higher dosages of CP, so I can lower it and still have it in the therapeutic range. I guess there is quite a bit of wiggle room with dosage CP. This is the first time I've ever used it. This tank is also a bare bottom with several PVC pipes and a sponge filter. It has a HOB biowheel filter with floss-no carbon like the 75gal to develop the cycle. There are no kitchen coffee cups in this tank.

    Well, I'm off to work on the 180gal fish tank stand. Thank you for your help and support guys! I still have a lot of work ahead of me with water changes and treatments, so I'll let everyone know how things go. When I get everyone well again and in their respective MDs again, I'll try to get some pictures up, though my phone camera sucks.
    Sashaka
     
  6. aykwm

    aykwm Research Addict! R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Furan can be used alone as it is wide spectrum antibiotic, usually its mixed with metro and kanaplex because together they usually fight all kinds of bacterial infection, but furan on its own should get the job done.

    For brook and flukes, they need a host to survive, so going fishes for 76 days will be enough
    more on fallow periods here:
    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/

    If your LFS carry acriflavine (like ruby reef rally or ms-formalin) you can perform a bath, it should relief the fish and might cure brook and uronema if thats the case.

    For coffee cups, it should be fine to use them.

    For seachem copper test kit they are right, it only works with ionic copper (seachem cupramine) and not chelated copper (copper safe, copper power). In general, copper test kits are usually hard to read, but you can post a photo here and the reef squad can help you (sorry I can't im color blind XD) .

    For CP I noticed that some fish will stop eating the first few days too, then they are back as normal. You can use supplements like garlic or entice to get them back to eating.

    Hope everything works out,
    best of luck
     
  7. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Thanks AYKWN: Wow-color blind? That must be hard as so many tests require color charts in this hobby. I guess you can go digital with most things now though. My husband is color blind too, but he does not have any interest in my tanks. I would try and post a picture of my copper readings, but I know different computers/monitors and even the camera used to take the pictures could drastically change the color, so I think in this case, pictures probably wouldn't be much help, and the only camera I have is my phone camera, and it sucks.

    I have some General Cure. It has Metronidazole-250 mg and Praziquantel-75 mg per packet. Would that be safe to add with the Furan2 - in both the copper and the CP tank? I'm on 2 day with Furan2. 1st Water change is due to happen today adding the 3rd dose of Furan2 to the water change. As I'm halfway through Furan2 treatment, would you recommend that I wait to add General Cure (if it's safe to add at all) or start dosing now? Thanks for your help! Thanks for the link. I will read it all over when I get back from the LFS. I have to buy the final dose of Furan2 for the tank.

    So far so good with the CP. The butterfly is eating again, not like before, but eating. It used to hang more at the top of the water and beg for food, even eating out of my hand. Now, it stays at the bottom-still not it's normal behaviors. I don't think it's out of the woods yet, but there are fewer parasites on the angel now. Yeah!

    I think I saw a post from HumbleFish? that certain fish were fine in CP for a day or so and then just died. Worried, I did lower the dose on my 1st water change yesterday-still in therapeutic range (1st dose of CP at highest range of 80%. Water change (I removed 10gal from the 29gal tank) and replaced with approx. 60% CP). I think that helped. I wish there was a way to test for actual levels in the tank.

    The two neon wrasses (cleaner fish) that I removed from 29gal sick tank and put in the 75gal copper tank (so I could start CP treatment in the 29gal tank) are scratching against things in the 75gal tank. I'm guessing I'll have to treat with formalin as many wrasses don't do well in CP and the CopperPower does not seem to work against this bug. I did purchase some Formalin when I bought the CP, but it's so toxic, I've been nervous to start using it. I also need to wait until I can get two transfer tanks up and ready to start the tank transfer process. I wish I had another 75 gal tank as I have so many fish (some large enough I think a small sick tank would stress them too much). Treating with different types of medications is difficult, costly, and time consuming!

    Based on a post I read somewhere from Humblefish?, I may want to use formalin dips and do tank transfer instead of CP for the trio of anthias, the wrasses, and I think I read somewhere else that puffers are also sensitive to CP. Does anyone know if I can dose the CP in with CopperPower? I think I read somewhere that CP MAY (not sure) work better when combined with Copper, but I don't want to make anymore mistakes.

    I can tell you this, after this experience, I will NEVER put another fish in my MD without 1st treating with CP and/or CopperPower, antibiotics, and then for intestinal worms and flukes. I will NEVER use the same nets or other tools on different tanks and cross contaminate again. I may not catch all types of illness doing this, but at least I'll have tried everything in my power to put only healthy fish in my display! This hobby has gotten way too expensive. I'm using about 200 gal of salt every two weeks with all the water changes. :0 The good news is I haven't lost any more fish-yet.

    My plan is to put all my snails, crabs, shrimps, and corals in the BioCube once it is fully cycled again. I'm just waiting to kill all the aiptasia on the coral...it KEEPS popping back up every week or two. Will coral dips kill aiptasia in egg or larva form? I've been using Aiptasia X. It only kills what is large enough to see. I'm trying to be careful and get the whole mouth so the aiptasia does not spread, but it always seems to come back..grrrr! I'm guessing all fish parasites will be gone (if they're hiding in the coral) if the BioCube is left fallow for 72 days.

    Ok, I'm off the the LFS now to buy more Furan2 for the final dose. Man, I hope I don't need to go another round of this stuff. I figured that I need to treat a total of 300gal for just the 75gal tank. That's about $38 (more if I need to do extra water changes) with tax just for this one tank-of just this one med alone. The General Cure is a little cheaper I think, but it all adds up. Salt, CP, CopperPower, copper test kits, General Cure, Furan2, Formalin... I'm broke and a long way from being done. Now I've depressed myself...

    I'll check in later in case anyone has other ideas about my fish doctoring saga. Please, let me know if I'm off track with any plan of action or treatment! And if there is any way to get out of doing the Formalin treatments, I'm open to suggestions! At heart, I'm a scaredy cat to start using this stuff. I suspect Book, not velvet as the CopperPower did not touch it. I wish I knew for sure what I'm dealing with.

    Thanks again AYKWN for your quick response. I'll keep everyone posted about how things are working out.
     
  8. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    General cure can be used, but it is generally recommended to only mix Praziquantel with other medications if absolutely necessary. If you must, make sure you have plenty of aeration...maybe throw in an airline and an extra power head aimed directly at the surface. The risk with dosing prazi with other meds comes with depleted oxygen levels due to bacterial blooms. If you up the aeration, the risk is less.

    If it was my tank, I'd probably just pick up some metroplex instead.

    CP would address possible brook, without needing the additional metro. But, of course some fish (like wrasses, hippo tangs, and anthias) may not do well.
     
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  9. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Thanks ngoodermuth! I'll wait on the general cure and just finish dosing the Furan2 then. If the tang still seems to have redness after the treatment is over, I'll go another round withtheFuran2 (the directions say to treat againif needed) and pick up the metroplex and use it in conjunction with Furan2. I've started another 20gal sick tank with CopperPower in anticipation of continuing with the CopperPower for the fish that don't do well in CP. After the month is up, if I still have fish scratching, I'll remove those fish to the 20gal CopperPower tank and treat the rest of the fish in the 75gal sick tank with CP. Does this sound like a plan or should I let the fish rest a bit beforehand starting another round? I don't want to stress the fish more than I have to, but I also don't want whatever bug they have to get a foothold again. This has been a nightmare! Thoughts?
    Thanks you!
    Sashaka
     
  10. aykwm

    aykwm Research Addict! R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Some fish are sensitive to copper and some are sensitive to CP. Anthias, wrasse, and blue hippo tang dont do well in CP and its recommended they be treated in copper. On other hand, puffer, sharks, eels, dragonets dont do well in copper and CP is recommended. The rest of the fish like tangs, clowns, damsels, etc. will do well in both, but always observe them because sometimes a fish might be sensitive to one medication or the other and you may want to transfer them.
    You can check this thread regarding fish sensitivity to copper vs cp
    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/
     
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  11. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    ^yes, as long as each fish is treated with either copper/metroplex OR CP, you are fine. I wouldn't suggest doubling up if you can avoid it.
     
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  12. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Let me start by thanking those of you who are trying to help me. Not only am I getting much needed information, but sharing my heartache has been therapeutic as well. No one understands the grief of a crash more than another saltwater hobbyist. I'm losing faith in my ability to keep fish healthy and happy. I went more than a year and a half without more than minor issues. Now, I feel like my world is crumbling around me and I can't do anything to stop it.

    The heartbreak continues. I lost the dot-dash butterfly tonight. I'm not sure if it was the CP, human error, or
    a possible septicemia infection. The fish had a red coloration around the mouth.

    Please allow let me to pick your more knowledgeable brains with more questions as I continue to struggle to save the rest of my fish.

    1. Do fish with septicemia infections rub against things in the tank or is this only a sign of continued parasitic infestation?

    2. I just finished treating with Foran 2 in the Copper Power 75gal tank, but the yellow tang and a few other fish still seem to be suffering from secondary bacterial infections. The directions on the box of Foran 2 say one can treat a second round of Foran 2 if needed, but how to go about doing this is unclear. If I continue to add packets doing only the 20% water changes every two days as the directions indicate for initial treatment, won't the end dosage after four more days of treatment become too high? If I do a complete water change and start treatment over from scratch, won't the dosage be too weak for the first 3 days, assuming that it takes 4 days to slowly bring fish up to the medicinal level - unless the antibiotics dissipate or lose strength after being in the tank after so many hours or days? I'm confused...

    How does one go about dosing a second round of antibiotics? Explicit directions would be helpful if anyone knows how to go about doing this.

    Thank you in advance!
    Sashaka
     
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  13. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    Rubbing is more a sign of parasitic/worm infestation, but it's not completely out of the question for an infection if it was bothering the fish enough.

    Septicemia-looking infections are very common with new butterflies, and IME this is the best medication to treat those: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html


    How long have the fish been in copper? It can sometimes be difficult to treat a bacterial infection whilst the fish is in copper, because copper is an immunosuppressant. Remember, antibiotics, in and of themselves, do not cure a fish. Antibiotics merely control the population growth of bacteria in a fish long enough for its immune system to completely eliminate them.

    Read this: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/the-bacterial-infection-predicament.315/
     
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  14. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Thank you, Humblefish, for your response. I have multiple issues going on in multiple tanks. I'll try to give you a time scale of dosing in the 29 gal sick tank as this is the tank the butterfly fish and majestic angel are/were in. I'm treating multiple tanks in multiple ways, so I'm sure my posts can be confusing. Sorry!

    7-8-17 Purchased 180gal used fish tank. Got a spot/dash butterfly, unknown sand sifting goby, and two blue lined cleaner fish, two sand sifting starfish, and a serpent starfish as freebie fish that came with the 180gal tank. The butterfly had visible signs of ich when I got it. The freebie fish went into a 29 sick tank. The starfish went into my 20 gal quarantine tank that housed a p. clown, a long nose hawkfish, assorted corals, crabs, and snails.

    7-11-17 Started Copper Power in 29 gal sick tank. I let the freebie fish settle in for a few days to make sure they were eating before starting treatment. (Water changes every two or three days as needed for ammonia control) CopperPower directions say it can be left in the tank for 30 days-very stable-does not lose strength in bare bottom tank. (Somehow I had cross contamination of ick into 75gal around this time as I noticed puffer showing signs of ick -tanks are only a few feet away from each other...possibly aerosol contamination. Completely broke down 75gal tank and set it up as a sick tank, adding CopperPower to this tank as well)

    7-12-17. Order from BlueZoo came in (I ordered these fish before I knew I was getting the 180gal tank): Blue hippo tang and majestic angel from BlueZoo were added to the 20 gal quarantine tank with my freebie starfish, p. clown, hawkfish, etc. This tank has been very stable for 1-1/2 to two years. Noticed blue hippo had some small white patches around gills upon putting it in the tank. Patchy areas enlarged really fast! Dead within 2 days.

    7-14-17 Panicked, I freshwater dipped all remaining fish in quarantine tank: Majestic angel, p. clown, and hawkfish and added them to the CopperPower sick tank with freebie butterfly, goby, and 2 cleaner fish.

    7-26-17 Did a complete water change. Wiped down tank. The CopperPower was removed and carbon run overnight to hopefully remove remaining copper. (The two cleaner wrasses were removed from this tank and added to the already running 75gal CopperPower treatment tank as wrasses don't do well in CP. I know...another newbie mistake...cross contamination=the 75gal sick tank is a different heartache story)
    Note: The freebie fish were in CopperPower 15 days; The BlueZoo fish and my p. clown and hawkfish were in Copper Power 13 days when I made the decision to change treatment to CP because the majestic angel was not responding to Copper Power treatment-dusting covering head was getting worse.

    7-27-17 Carbon removed from 29 gal sick tank. CP added at 80% strength to try to save majestic angel. Butterfly did not like the CP and stopped eating within a few days. Angel seemed to respond to CP treatment much better than the CopperPower treatment. Dust over gills and body of majestic angel lessening within a few days. Did 20gal water change in the 29gal sick tank and lowered CP dose in replaced water to 60% strength to try to support butterfly fish now not doing well. Butterfly seemed to do better at this strength. It started eating-or at least picking at food.

    7-3-17: Came home to a dead butterfly fish. 15 days in CopperPower (butterfly handling treatment well), 7 days in CP (stopped eating). Looks like it may have started a secondary infection. Angel now looks like it has starting lateral line disease. Did I mention I cried when the butterfly died? Furban 2 added.

    My local stores don't carry the Nitrofuracin Green. I will need to order it online but may not get it for several days. Will Nitrofuracin Green cause a bacterial bloom and lower oxygen levels in the CP and CopperPower tanks? Is it a good choice of treatment in the 29 gal with the angel that looks to be starting lateral line disease or should I stick with the Furan 2 for that?

    Several other members here have suggested I add metroplex as a combination with the Furan2, which is what I had planned to do if a second round of antibiotics was needed. Which is better...the Nitrofuracin or the combination of Furan 2 and metroplex? I'm assuming you suggested the Nitrofuracin for the 75 gal tank with the yellow tang showing signs of secondary infection? Should I use the Nitrofuracin or the combo of Furan 2 and metroplex in the 29 gal with the angel showing signs of lateral line disease? I think if I'm going to order something, I need to do so quickly seeing how fast the butterfly fish developed (I think) bacterial infections and died.

    Sorry, I'm still unclear about what to do about the 2nd round of Furan 2 dosing? The Furan 2 is what I have on hand to dose right now. I don't think the fish can wait until I order new meds, which can take a few days to a few weeks. I didn't do the 20% water change after the last of the 4 dose treatment of Furan 2 in the 75gal tank as directed last night, nor did I add carbon to help remove the rest of the Furan 2 from the tank as I don't want to lower the dose of CopperPower in this tank. The fish are still scratching against things. Please advise. How do I go about dosing the second round of Furan 2?

    I need to figure this out quickly. Thank you in advance!!
    Sashaka



     
  15. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    BTW Humblefish: Active ingredients in Furan-2: 60 mg Nitrofurazone and 25 mg Furazolidone per packet (each packet treats 10 g). Wouldn't this be the same/similar to the Nitrofuracin Green you recommended as it is in the Nitro family of drugs? Thanks for your help!
     
  16. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    @Sashaka There are two wide spectrum antibiotic concoctions we often recommend:
    • Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex
    • Nitrofuracin Green Powder
    Whether one is more effective than the other is subjective at this point. Both can cause a bacterial bloom/reduced oxygen when combined with CP or copper. It is always optimal to use antibiotics without any other medications being present in the water, if possible.

    When using antibiotics, you should treat continuously for 10-14 days. Antibiotics, in and of themselves, do not cure a fish. Antibiotics merely control the population growth of bacteria in a fish long enough for its immune system to eliminate them. So, if your fish doesn't have a healthy immune system or copper/CP is suppressing it, the antibiotics may not be enough to get the job done. If the fish is eating, I recommend feeding vitamin enriched foods and ones which contain probiotics to help boost the immune system.
     
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  17. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Understood Humblefish. Thank you for the med combinations that can be used together. As I have already started the Furan2, I think I will need to continue with this antibiotic for 10-14 days so the bug does not develop a resistance to it. I will order the Kanaplex and metroplex and expedite the order. Hopefully, it will come in time. The fish are still eating, though the yellow tang in the 75gal is picking at the nori more than eating it voraciously like it used to.

    I know I need to continue the CopperPower and CP in both tanks for the full month to kill off whatever parasites are attacking the fish (I suspect multiple bugs), so unfortunately, I'll need to continue to use both in conjunction with the antibiotics. I set up both tanks with extra air stones and run both at lower salinity (20) to help with respiration. I can try adding some powerheads for added surface aggitation if you think it's necessary. I will also begin soaking food with vitamins and garlic=I have both on hand. I don't have any probiotics on hand. Can you recommend something?

    Finally, please bare with me...
    The Furan2 directions state to use consecutively for 4 treatments with water changes before adding Furan2 on day two and four. If I am to continue treating for 10-14 days instead of 4, do I just keep this regiment going or do I need to do a more complete water changes so the meds do not build up too much in the water during this longer treatment period?

    Thank you in advance for all your help! I must admit that I'm becoming brain-fried with all the research I've been doing on my own as well as reading through the many links people have provided to help educated me in fish diseases, prevention, and treatments. Truthfully, the amount of information I'm trying to absorb is overwhelming because of the different symptoms the fish are having and the many treatment options and opinions out there. I REALLY appreciate the help this forum is providing and the personal responses to help me pick the best treatment options for the issues my fish are fighting!

    Humbled by the support to a perfect stranger...
    Sashaka
     
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  18. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    The more meds you combine, the more O2 that gets depleted. Side effects (such as appetite suppression) become amplified. Filtering multiple medications also becomes more demanding on the liver & kidneys. So dumping too many meds on a fish all at once is not a good thing, but sometimes a necessary risk to take when trying to treat multiple ailments using just one QT.

    Knowing the above, you must try to do everything you can to tip the odds back in your favor. Pointing a powerhead towards the surface (or adding an airstone) to increase gas exchange and using garlic to add palatability to food are good steps to take.

    To boost the immune system, check out this thread for a list of vitamin supplements you can use: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/vitamins-herbal-remedies.304287/


    I would do a slightly larger water change than the usual 25% before beginning the second & third course of treatment.

    Once you join R2R, you are no longer a stranger, but part of the R2R family. :)
     
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  19. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Thank you Humblefish: I ordered the meds today. They should be here in about three days (so the company said). They didn't have an option for expedited shipping other than FedEx ground.

    I already have two airstones in the 75gal and one powerhead. I'll reposition the powerhead in the 75 gal at the surface of the water. I currently have it circulating near the bottom to keep the water moving at all levels of the tank. I also have an airstone (sponge filter) going in the 29gal. I'll add a powerhead to this tank tomorrow. Thanks for the tip!

    Thanks for the link. I discovered that Dr.Foster and Smith sells the Probiotic Marine Formula, so I've ordered some. :)

    I think I'm covered as for the probiotic fish food. I looked at the ingredients of LRS Frenzy and found that I already feed most of the ingredients daily in my own homemade fish soup. I buy human grade raw shrimp, clams, and scallops (some left in shell for the porcupine puffer -some cut up for smaller mouths). I alternate human grade octopus, lobster, and calamari, etc., as offered on sale at the grocery store. I buy different sized mysis shrimp, two types of frozen angel herbivore formulas-one with first indigence of sponge, and human grade nori. I recently purchased red seaweed fish food, but the fish really don't seem to care for it. I rotate various other mixed frozen fish foods such as plankton and Dr. G's caviar. I feed Spectrum pellets daily and on a rare occasion provide flake food (I have two fish that really like flakes so I offer a tiny bit every three or four days as a treat). I'd say about 80% of the fish food I prepare is human grade frozen or fresh foods purchased from the supermarket, about 15% is frozen/fresh/and pellet foods made for aquarium use, and about 5% flake fish food. The fish food brand names vary, but I buy quality foods, not the cheep stuff. Human grade nori is offered daily on a clip. I cut up tilapia and haddock or other human grade fish and rotate them in every few weeks as well. I guess I hope that variety will keep all my fish healthy as well as provide something in the mix for even the finickiest of fish. In truth, my husband complains that the fish eat better than he does as the freezer is always full of frozen foods reserved for my saltwater fish!

    Unfortunately, I didn't see your post in time to do the larger water change before I started the second round of Furan2 treatment. I'll do it before the next dosage. The yellow tang-which I've grown from a 3" fish to around a 6" fish seems worse today-more red areas showing through the yellow. It's only picking at food now, not really eating well. I really hope it makes it. I'll soak the food in some garlic along with vitamins tomorrow.

    Thanks again for your help! I think I have a plan of treatment set now that I can follow. I'll let everyone know how things progress.

    Gratefully yours,
    Sashaka

    BTW: Thank you for including me in so quickly as one of the R2R family. I appreciate the welcome and the kindness shown! :)
     
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  20. Sashaka

    Sashaka Active Member Catskill Reef Member

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    Well, it's been about 3 weeks for the 75gal sick tank in CopperPower. There are several fish still scratching! I'm not sure if the treatment is working on all the fish. I know it worked on the ick as the puffer's fins are all clear now and it's eyes are no longer cloudy.

    My dilemma... I don't know whether to continue the CopperPower treatment for the full month or switch the treatment to CP to support the fish that don't seem to be getting better in the CopperPower. If you guys/gals think I should switch the treatment, I don't know whether to take out the wrasses and anthias before beginning CP treatment or just try bringing the level of CP up supper slowly-like over the course of a 5-7 days. The blue lined cleaner wrasses are scratching on things the most - so if any of the fish need the CP treatment more than the others, it's them. The biggest issue is I can't tell if the discoloration around the cleaner fish's heads is velvet, Brook, or Septicemia. Has anyone ever had any luck using CP with blue lined cleaner wrasses, melanurus wrasse, red headed fairy wrasse and/or a vrolik's wrasse? These are the fish I would have to remove to treat with CP along with my lyre tailed trio of anthias.

    If anyone recalls from my earlier posts, the cleaner wrasses were some fish that came with the 180gal used tank and were contaminated with whatever the blue hippo and majestic angel came in with from BlueZoo Aquatics-I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was Brook because the parasite on the majestic angel did not respond to the CopperPower treatment...but the angel has started getting better in the CP treatment. I have some really poor pictures of the majestic angel and the blue tang and I'll try to upload them. Unfortunately, they're the best I have with my sucky phone camera.

    Question 1
    Does anyone have a guess about which disease I'm really dealing with based on the sucky pictures and the information provided so far?
    Question 2
    Should I continue the CopperPower treatment in the 75gal or switch to CP treatment?
    Question 3
    If I raise the level of CP over the course of 4-5 days, do you think the wrasses and anthias would survive a CP treatment?
    Other recommendations?

    Thanks in advance for your support as I continue to battle whatever is killing my fish.
    Sashaka
     
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