Heaters! Who knew!?

[BZOFIQ]

Agreed. There are several advantages to using the Apex rather than a heater thermostat.

First, heater thermostats are notorious for failing. I use the higher quality relay in my apex so the only ’wear and tear’ on my heaters is from the element heating up and cooling off, significantly extending their life.
Second, if you have more than one heater, it’s nearly impossible to get the thermostats calibrated and synchronized.
Finally, the Apex will have a much tighter control over the tank temp than most heaters are capable of achieving.

I understand the concern of causing the apex to wear out, but based on a large body of combined experience it really isn’t an issue.

@Sleepydoc, I'm not disagreeing but again, there is nothing to wear out on the outlets previously mentioned on an EB8, a whole different story on EB832. With EB832 even Neptune doesn't recommend tight heater control on that strip.

Outlets numbered 1-2-3-5-6-7 on an EB8 are controlled by triacs. As long as you don't overload it (keep your heaters limited to 300W) per outlet you will never have issues.

 

[miran2782]

I have always used GFI every Outlet around water. My tank, kitchen, bath & pool. It truly is an absolute to avoid killing someone or something

Here is the tricky question. Do you use GFCI outlet for your sump pump (basement not aquarium)?

 

[Sleepydoc]

@Sleepydoc, I'm not disagreeing but again, there is nothing to wear out on the outlets previously mentioned on an EB8, a whole different story on EB832. With EB832 even Neptune doesn't recommend tight heater control on that strip.

Outlets numbered 1-2-3-5-6-7 on an EB8 are controlled by triacs. As long as you don't overload it (keep your heaters limited to 300W) per outlet you will never have issues.

??? I've never seen or heard anything about Neptune not recommending heaters on their controllers; actually the opposite, and fusion has labels and pre-set programs. I just skimmed through the manual and the community forum and found nothing there, either. Do you have a reference? I've had my apex for about 5 years. The heaters switch on and off about 20x/day so that would be about 35,000 cycles so far with no issue. ‍*shrug*

Ultimately, the relays in any controller are mechanical devices and will wear out eventually. How soon depends on the amount of use and the quality of the relay. If you are concerned then there's certainly nothing wrong with purchasing an ink bird, Ranco or other dedicated temp controller and using it as a stand alone device, or plugging it into the controller and using the controller as a backup. If you are running short of outlets, using a separate heater controller is an easy & relatively inexpensive way to get an extra outlet without purchasing another energy bar, too.

 

[keithIHS]

A little late to the party, @Treefer32 , but in case you or someone else is still interested, maybe this will help.
Regarding heater size, another consideration is how fast do you want to be able to heat up your aquarium the 1st time you turn on the heaters or how fast do you want to recover from a low-temp event. The faster you want it to heat up, the more power you need. Check out this calculator. It covers both heat-up time and maintaining constant temp: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/HeaterChillerSizing.php Notice there's nothing in the calculator about heater housing material, confirming @ca1ore and @Sleepydoc's comments.

I've been a little frustrated by the temperature swing in my tank. There's just too much lag between water temp and heater internal thermostat so I'm considering an external temperature probe/controller. I'm torn between something like the baylite plugged into my EB832 or adding an EB8.

The EB8 outlets 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 use solid state triac switches which can handle a much greater number of on-off cycles than mechanical relays but can fail to switch off if the current to be switched is low. Not a problem for a heater, but this low-current switching issue is why Neptune abandoned them for the EB832 (note that the EB4 uses mechanical relays). Check out Neptune's Comprehensive Reference Manual, page 18 which says, "[Triac switches] are very, very fast and can switch in fractions of a second and do that all day long without wearing out like a mechanical switch/relay would".
https://www.neptunesystems.com/downloads/docs/Comprehensive_Reference_Manual.pdf
Even if Neptune recommends controlling a heater with the EB832 (rather than just over-temp protection), I'd be concerned they're just trying to keep it simple at the risk of failing your energy bar.

 

[Treefer32]

Keith, thanks for the reply. this was a BRS youtube video that I learned from. Conserve your EB8s by using the heater thermostat and use the Apex to shut down the heater if it sticks on for some reason.

So, I have my heater outlets configured to be on unless temp exceeds 80 degrees. Then shut the heaters off (both outlets). I used to turn the outlets on and off based on the water temp, but not good for the switches.

I let the heater run things unless it does something I don't want like heat too much.

As to bringing up to temp, well, this is apart of water flow as well right. Thermodynamics and dispersion of heat within a liquid? So, If two 300 watt heaters are inches apart heating the water around them and the water is flowing at 2400 gph.

Two questions:
1. How long before one heater shuts off because the water surrounding both heaters is up to temp?
2. How long does it take to disperse the heat in the sump surrounding the heaters to the rest of the tank?

Here's a scenario:

I did a 130 gallon (about 40%) water change with room temperature (about 67 degree water) With both of my heaters set to 82 degrees to help the water around them be warmer than the incoming water to offset the temp change.

My heating prob is in the overflow chamber of my sump- water coming. My heaters are in the middle chamber.

When I mixed in the new water into the sump water, both heaters ran for a couple minutes then shut off within 3-5 minutes. . I assume because the water surrounding them was warm... My temp prob in the overflow showed 69 degrees.

When I turned the return pump on after a few minutes of letting the sump water warm up and mix, and then continued filling into the sump that then flowed into the display until it was full. The heaters would intermittently turn off saying the water was over 82. Even if my EB8 probe said 69.5. Once the tank was full and water overflowed into the sump and things returned to normal operating status after the water change it took about an hour for the Apex probe to go from 69 to 77.

I tested the water in the tank with IR temp checker and it showed around 72.

So: Here's the deal:

Finnex thermostats: Intermittently showed water over 82
Apex EB8 Temp probe: Showed gradual increase over 1-2 hours from 69 to target of 77-78.
Tank water: IR Temp tester never showed the display below 72.

I'm o.k. with a 5 degree difference. Fish and corals are probably used to that in the ocean. . . I'm not o.k. with a 10 degree difference.

Higher wattage heaters would heat the water around them faster, but doesn't that mean they'd shut off faster too until the water surrounding them is replaced? My 300 watt heaters seem to keep up and shut off too soon...

 

[keithIHS]

I think I recall watching that BRS video, but was it for EB8 or EB832? The EB8 triac outlets should be fine as heater controller. The EB832 mechanical relays not fine.

The question of heat flow from the heater filament to the inside of the case, through the case to the outer surface, then to the water touching the heater, then mixing in your sump...is a bit complicated...no kidding, right. However, at 2400 gph, that should be fine IF the flow velocity at the heater is good. If the heaters are somehow in a stagnant area of the sump, then that's no good. You need good flow velocity at the heater to get the heat away from the heater and good flow volume rate to the display tank to get the heat from the sump to the DT. A possible problem is, I think, the problem I'm having, that the heat inside the heater takes a while to get through the housing so ends up heating up the heater thermostat and cutting it off too soon. My heater cycles on and off more than I think it should and even when the temp in the tank is low, the heater cuts off frequently. I have my heaters between the baffles in the sump, so flow velocity is probaly OK. BTW, I'm using two 300 W heaters in my 140 gal system. Two 300 W for you, ~ 400 gal, seems low. Another thing to consider is, what happens if your house becomes unreasonably cold for some reason, e.g. heat failure or open window in the winter. Too cold is much much better than too warm, but maybe you want some heater capacity margin safety factor.

Don't believe the temperature setting on the heater. These can easily be off +/- 2 deg. F. In rare cases +/- 5 (credit: BRSTV). Don't believe your thermometer either unless you've calibarated it, it's NIST traceable (and relatively new) or you've compared several, like 4 or 5, thermometers. Thermometers are also often off by +/- 2. I have several glass thermometers which I calibrated with ice water and boiling water and compare them with each other. I'm comfortable they are within +/- 1 after calibration. The worst is off by 3.

I don't know what daily temp swing is OK. Probably depends a lot on the particular coral, if it has acclimated itself to it, what the actual high and low is. Someone else will need to weigh in on this one. Check out https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-much-can-water-temperature-swings-effect-sps-corals.358578/

If you are truly using EB8, NOT EB832, you can use the triac outlets without worry.
Put your heaters in an area that has high flow velocity. Maybe add a small pump to blow water by the heaters.
Consider bigger heaters.

 

[BZOFIQ]

... If you are truly using EB8, NOT EB832, you can use the triac outlets without worry.
Put your heaters in an area that has high flow velocity. Maybe add a small pump to blow water by the heaters.
Consider bigger heaters.

Have to definitely agree re triacs on EB8 - provided you're not exceeding their rating with 600 or 800W heaters.


......

Turns out I already posted this in post #41 above.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/heaters-who-knew.819501/page-3#post-8811621

 

[Viva'sReef]

I had 1 - 300w Finnex running on about 260ish gallons of water (110g common sump, 60g frag tank, 120g display) in a Michigan Basement for about 3 years. The rubber end cap eventually broke down and it gave me one heck of a shock. I had a brand new back up and didnt think twice to put the same model Finnex right back in the tank.

I now run 2x 150w Cobalt NeoTherm heaters on my aprox 85g water volume. I really like the slim design of these heaters. Read some bad reviews on them but they have been solid for the last 9 months. I don't think you can find a heater brand that doesn't have haters/bad reviews.

 

[keithIHS]

@BZOFIQ sorry to not credit your previous post. I was actually responding in defense of your post to sleepydoc's skeptical reply to your post!
I should have also mentioned that I'm running one of my 300 W heaters in my 140 gal sys as primary with the other as a secondary set 1 or 2 F higher. Obviously a single 300 W heater can take care of a 400 gal system, but other concerns, accidentally cold room, speed to restore temp, temperature fluctuations etc may suggest more power, but at greater risk of overheating. However, if the heaters are replaced at least biannually, and there are two thermostats in series (heater + Apex) then the risk of overheat is low.
I'm using finnex heaters completely submerged. Need to change that...

 

[RichReef]

I went through heater after heater after heater. Brand after brand. I was going through heaters so much I had an electrician come out and evaluate whether or not my house was causing problems. This guy spent 6 hours looking over my electric turning the mains off and on, opening boxes, testing my surge protectors and he found nothing wrong. So I invested in some top brand surge protectors and timer delays per his suggestions and the problems still continued. I easily went through 8 heaters over 3 years on 2 different systems. Spending the money for the top brands available.

It wasn't until I tried Hyggar from Amazon that my problems stopped. I'll swear by these until my death bed. The best part is you can plug any heater into the controller although I haven't done that yet.

As far as ratings go I don't know. I have a 300W on each system. One is 120 gallons total volume and the other is 60 and these handle it with np problems.

The heaters were so good I now have their pumps on my systems. Love them too.

 

[shred5]

All the wattage from a resistive heater ends up in your water, regardless of the actual heater body material. Not sure who came up with that pseudoscience gem.

I do agree that heater sizing IS all over the place. Partly because there are factors beyond the control of the heater manufacturer. What ambient do you keep your room at? What’s the ratio of volume to surface area? What material/thickness is the tank made from? Do you use a cover on your tank? All of these will influence the required wattage. For example, I use 1200 watts on my 600 gallon system. Same as my prior 400 gallon system. Difference is that the old system was 1/2” glass, the newer one 1” acrylic. No mystery really.

Agreed.

My system I need almost double what a manufacturer claims because most of my tanks are in the basement and drops into the low 60's sometimes when it is 20 below out side it gets even colder. I usually end up putting foam board insulation around my tanks in the winter.

I never thought about that but acrylic is a better insulator than glass.

I do not trust heater and always use a controller.
I recently started trying the Bayite controllers and they have been pretty good. I used to use Ranco the Bayite controllers with probe upgrades have been great though.

 

[Treefer32]

I should have clarified, I'm on the Apex Classic so I think EB8 which are actual physical switches. I had it in cold storage for two years, when I pulled it out some of the switches were sticky and barely worked until I cycled them off and on a few times then they started working and have worked flawlessly for three years now. What's a little rust on the switches....

I think when I replace my current heaters I plan to go with two 350 watt Helio Heaters. They look solid. Spendy, but solid. I agree the water may be stagnant where the heaters are in my sump. The water passes through there, it's constantly flowing but I don't know how much water actually turns over around the heaters. Might be worth a small powerhead to mix water around the heaters.

 

[keithIHS]

Interesting about the switches. According to Neptune's docs, only outlets 4 and 8 are mechanical and 1,2,3,5,6,7 are triac, but if you had to cycle them then they're relays. Here's a test: if you turn it off and on and it makes a click sound it's a relay. If silent it's a triac.

 

[310L.Afish]

Well I guess jager it is, I am not rich to buy a $500+ 1000 watts heater…

 

[Alexr54]

I got a 500w finnex heater for my 125g (50g refugium).
It heats my tank by 2 degrees in like 2-3 minutes. But it is smaller in size then the 300w heater, which was important to me.
I have it plugged into my Apex and programmed good. So I'm not worried about it staying on by accident.

 

[Treefer32]

My furnace had stopped working for a day while we were out of town. House got to 62 degrees. The aquarium was still 77 with 2 300 watt heaters.