Help me out of this slump!

Discussion in 'General SPS Discussion' started by Acro maniac, Sep 30, 2017.

  1. Acro maniac

    Acro maniac Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I have been having some issues with burnt tips on acros and pale to chalky montis for the past 3 months. The challenge was every wc (Once a week 10%) as soon as the water change was complete half the acros in the tank tips would melt, but the next day all the montis would look better. so by the end of the week the montis would be worse and the acros would recover.
    A little history... Tank is about 10 years old.
    90 dt, BB 20 gal sump about 85 total valume
    Curve 7 skimmer
    danner 900gph return
    (2) maxspect 250 gyre running at 90%
    (1) hydor 1150 powerhead
    1/4 hp chiller
    tunze ato
    Mechanical dosing BRS 2 part
    feeding pe mysis, rods and lrs
    Fish stock Sailfin tang, powder brown tang, (2) anthias (3) chromis a royal gramma clown and a malerius wrasse.
    Mainly sps,acros and montis. Some lps favia acans and a duncan.
    Salinity 1.025
    temp 78
    alk 2.5 meq/ 7dkh i know its low but its stable
    cal 430
    mag 1385
    po4 0.1
    no3 10
    all salifert test, refractor for salinity
    ROdi unit from spectra pure ~ 0 TDS and 0 for chlorine i also supply a buddy with water and he has no issues.
    Tank maintence wc once a week 10-15 gal, blow rocks out once a month, suck out ditritus with wc.
    change sock weekly ( never overflows)
    salt was fritz but i had some concerns it was the cause, so last week i switched and am now using aqua forest.
    After bang my head against the wall, i employed triton for a test to see what is really in my water.
    the results are in and the concerns are ...
    B~ 11mg/l
    P~ 181 ug/l
    p04~ 0.5538
    My concern is the Boron. Where it is possibly coming from and how to get rid of it.
    After posting in Randys reef chemistry section i guess the boron isn't really a big deal.
    If there is anything im missing pleaes point it out or ask me anything to find a solution to this issue.
    At this point im scared to do a wc and tomorrow is wc day.
    Fwiw heres the complete result from triton. Screenshot_20170930-212027.png Screenshot_20170930-212047.png Screenshot_20170930-212111.png
     
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  2. jsker

    jsker Reefing is all about the adventure R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    You called it with the alk. Depending on the salt, when he water changed the system is shocked by fluctiation. Test the system before the change and right after the water change. Steady Alk as mentioned is a key.
     
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  3. Acro maniac

    Acro maniac Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I guess i neglected to state that info.
    I have been testing alk twice a day sence the end of june. 5am and 7pm week days and 7am and 7-8 pm weekends. To keep stable due to growth rates fluctuating based on pre and post wc.
    As for makeup water and testing...
    I test the tank prior to wc, test the new mixed water for salinity alk mag and cal. If there are any deviations ill dose the new water and retest. Then after a wc is complete test again.
    So wc day is a minimum of 3 test per element
     
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  4. Scott.h

    Scott.h Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Yeah I'm thinking alk is higher in the salt enough to shock the water. Dose some acid to your water change water to lower the alk to match the tank, then bubble it over night to raise the ph. Does your buddy that you give water to also have sps?

    I've found brs two part to have the same effect as what you describe btw. I feel it's caustic depending on how spread out you are dosing. I have no proof of this, but I've had the same issue. You may try b-ionic and see if that helps.

    Also I'd run some iron based gfo to lower the po4 a bit too. Slowly.

    Edit-I wouldnt manipulate the trace elements right now to match tritons suggestions until you get this sorted. Its not the issue. I know it's tempting, but I have two triton systems and adding elements can also shock the corals adding stress.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
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  5. Flippers4pups

    Flippers4pups Fins up since 1993 R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    I'd say that your water change chemistry is different in alkalinity and ph than your tank water. @jsker is probably right that its shocking the corals.
     
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  6. Flippers4pups

    Flippers4pups Fins up since 1993 R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    Okay, how long do you let your newly made saltwater sit before use? Also how do you clean your socks? Do you let them air dry for a couple days before use? Vinegar or bleach?

    Could have a bad batch of salt?
     
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  7. scardall

    scardall Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    One addition .5xx PO4 is rather high and NO3 of 10ppm is alright(2-5ppm better) Dose NO3PO4-x by red sea . please flow directions and NOTE: Change is very slow. All Else I generally agree what others are indicating as to your Alk. swings. I have to dose twice a day to maintain around 7dkh. Good luck ( I use Instant Ocean as I can add What I need) Good Luck (I like Hanna Testers the best) Salifert too.
     
  8. Scott.h

    Scott.h Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Good call. Letting newly mixed salt mix for a few days certainly isn't a bad thing.
     
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  9. Acro maniac

    Acro maniac Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Alk is really close in the make up water less than 0.25dkh, I have the tank system set to an average i have found bu testing fresh mixed water. Yes he has acros and montis all are doing killer. I actually helped him get his tank back in oreder from having excessive nutrients and a bad algea problem.
    Do you still think its the variation in alk at 10 percent wc and less than 0.25 dkh?
    Also gfo went in when got the results
     
  10. Acro maniac

    Acro maniac Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I have purchased back up tests salifert lamotte and seachem i guess its possible what would be a solution?
     
  11. Acro maniac

    Acro maniac Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I have used it immediately, let it sit for hours and also let it sit over night.
    In each situation i have test at mix time and prior to use.
    Socks get spray nozzel and air dry.
    I thought the same on the salt so i switched to aqua forest. Thing is my buddy has a box of salt from the same batch , no issue
     
  12. Reefltx

    Reefltx Well-Known Member

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    Try raising your alk to 8-8.5dkh.
    Maybe just me, but with more nutrients in the tank my Monti seems to suffer at low alk. They seem to perk back up once I get my alk in the 8 range.
     
  13. ajm83

    ajm83 Well-Known Member

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    I have the same weird difference with PO4 from my test kit and much higher in my triton results. Is this to be expected? In my case it's 0.00 - 0.01 in my tests and 0.1 in triton (so approx 10x more)

    Maybe triton is showing all phos and the test kits only organic (or something...) ?
     
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  14. Scott.h

    Scott.h Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    New saltwater alk shouldn't matter then. Did this issue start when you added the gfo? If you suck phosphate out too fast this is a problem. Did you increase your lights? Did you add or change carbon recently? Is by chance your skimmer line plumber outside where something would have got sucked in like fertilizer?

    I wouldn't keep changing things. I definitely wouldn't increase your alk. Leave it at 7.0
     
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  15. scardall

    scardall Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    I didn't think of that. hmmmmm I am aware of PO4 in 2 forms. Organic(GFO, carbon dosing etc. for removal) and inorganic(carbon/skimmer for removal PO4.)
     
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  16. Flippers4pups

    Flippers4pups Fins up since 1993 R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    There's something I over looked and could be your problem. Alkalinity, Ph and your photoperiod/light. Your alkalinity may drop at night.

    Taken from the 3reef forum:

    "Alkalinity and pH are related, alk is the buffering capacity of water and is a measure of carbonate (CO3) and bicarbonate(HCO3). Generally if alk rises so does pH unless carbonic acid (dissolved CO2) levels are higher than usual; then you get a low pH and high alkalinity.
    Aeration, photosynthesis or adding sodium hydroxide increases oxygen levels which lowers carbonic acid this in turn will raise pH and alk. This is why alkalinity and pH can rise when lights are on due to photosynthesis and drop when lights are off.


    A lot of organisms in a reef tank use calcium carbonate to build there skeletons, these will remove carbonates and calcium at an equal rate from the water. Plants and bacteria can also use inorganic carbon such as carbonate and bicarbonate as a food source but prefer organic carbon and carbonic acid."

    If your always at 7dkh and your ph drops at night, it can pull your dkh bellow 7 which is minimal.

    I would raise your alkalinity up to 8-9dkh and keep it there.
     
  17. Acro maniac

    Acro maniac Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Gfo went in when i recieved the triton results on 9 /29. Im aware of the stripping po4 and it will cause burnt tips on acros and paling montis.
    Light schedule is the same its been for 4-5 years.
    No carbon
    Skimmer intake is inside cabinet ( doors stay open to keep humidity down)
     
  18. Acro maniac

    Acro maniac Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I am aware of the ph changes at night but have not paid much attention to ph in a while. I tested it for years without any change 8.15 day and 8.05 night always, ill look back to my log i believe i tesed ph about a month or 2 ago. I did revisit it sence these issues have been going. But ill look at it again.
     
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  19. Acro maniac

    Acro maniac Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Wow thanks for all the responses.
    Just to remphasize acros tips burn post water change and recover through the week . Montis recover post water change and fade through the week.
    Today wc day ill be mixing water shortly and will post the results of my tests . Today ill do 2 alk tests on dt (salifert and lamotte) and the same 2 on new mixed water. Along with the cal and mag ill post the results prior to commencing wc
     
  20. Mattrg02

    Mattrg02 Well-Known Member

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    If your water changes are affecting your corals, your water change water isn't matched properly. You need to at least match salinity, temperature, alkalinity, and pH.
     
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