Help me understand low phosphates regarding Cyano Bacteria

[Tankkeepers]

Ps there are plenty of documented scientific papers that show the entire string from start to finish

 

[Lasse]

o is carried down threw the entire prosses as anaerobic means a lack of dissolved oxygen not bound oxygen and as n is used s is expelled see post but really I'm done this time as it seems like no matter what I show you will always have to be right

It is an old misunderstanding that it is the bound O that will be used as electron acceptor - that's not true - it is the whole NO3 and SO4 molecule that is used. But you claimed that SO4 will be build up in an anaerobic environment and I asked where the O molecule come from because it needs free oxygen in order to oxidize sulphur or any sulphur compound into SO4. As you stated - anaerobic means no dissolved oxygen so the question is still - where do the O comes from in a an anaerobic environment that can cause uppbuild of SO4 from sulphur or other sulphur compounds? H2S can be build up because of anaerobic processes but it will consume SO4.

Ps there are plenty of documented scientific papers that show the entire string from start to finish

Yes - and I love to see these that show that S or SO4 is created in a DSB or in natural sediments. Can you give me some links?




Sincerely Lasse

 

[homer1475]

PSS

When you write posts with long run on sentences(no punctuation), your entire post looses credibility. And many will just skip over them to reduce the suffering from having to read them.

 

[Lasse]

Ps there are plenty of documented scientific papers that show the entire string from start to finish

If you think that I haven´t read scientific reports on this matter during the last 40 years - sorry - you are wrong again.

PSS
When you write posts with long run on sentences(no punctuation), your entire post looses credibility. And many will just skip over them to reduce the suffering from having to read them.

Do you mean my posts? I´m not a native english speaker - it means that I´m sometimes not use proper english - I´m sorry for that. I try to improve my skills in written English.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tankkeepers]

nope they mean my post and sorry will not happen theres a reason I can not understand where punctuation goes but not importaint enoff for me to go into my life story

 

[homer1475]

If you think that I haven´t read scientific reports on this matter during the last 40 years - sorry - you are wrong again.


Do you mean my posts? I´m not a native english speaker - it means that I´m sometimes not use proper english - I´m sorry for that. I try to improve my skills in written English.

Sincerely Lasse

No not you at all @Lasse. You actually write english very well for it not being your native language. You just happen to post just before I did. I was referring to every post by @Tankkeepers, here and in other sections of the forum.

Punctuation goes a long way in conveying tone, meaning, and just generally good english.

Long run on sentence get very confusing when people can't understand what your trying to say because there is no punctuation to know where one idea stops and another starts therefore people tend to overlook every post made by that poster

Get the idea?

 

[Tankkeepers]

No not you at all @Lasse. You actually write english very well for it not being your native language. You just happen to post just before I did. I was referring to every post by @Tankkeepers, here and in other sections of the forum.

Punctuation goes a long way in conveying tone, meaning, and just generally good english.

Long run on sentence get very confusing when people can't understand what your trying to say because there is no punctuation to know where one idea stops and another starts therefore people tend to overlook every post made by that poster

Get the idea?

See message I just sent and thanks

 

[Lasse]

nope they mean my post and sorry will not happen theres a reason I can not understand where punctuation goes but not importaint enoff for me to go into my life story

Thanks . I did not react on that but that have its explanations too. But I do not agree with the content in your post and I try to explain why I see it wrong. Please read through the thread once again (tomorrow) and you will see that the distance between us not is a large as you think. Is more of a question of how to use different terms.

Sulphur for me is elementary sulphur (or sulfur) - in chemical language S. SO4 is sulfate and H2S is hydrogen sulfide. All content sulphur but if you should explain and understand these processes - is important to use (or learn) the nomenclature. Not only name all as sulphur.

I agree with all in your first link plus a couple of things discovered after that it was written. One of these are NO3´s and/or the denitrification processes suppression of anaerobic metabolism using SO4 as electron acceptor. To understand this has an enormous importance if you run a DSB or the type of reversed flow DSB that I have run for 4 years now. It say´s - never let the NO3 reach zero - around 2 ppm is best

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tankkeepers]

Honestly I think we are arguing the same point from 2 diffrent angles as I'm leaving some of the detail out and not wording things like I should thats my bad I have enjoyed reading everything you have posted as I have learned alot I did not know it has been an adventure and I enjoyed every moment of it please do keep up the good work

 

[Tankkeepers]

Also I have 0 experience with a reversed dsb mine was setup similar to a beach with wave after wave crashing into the bed and some of the sand being out of the water man that was hard to do without major erosion I also used cleaned play sand to avoid the clumping problem that araganite can run into

 

[Tankkeepers]

Also letting no3 hit 0 may of been my problem and why I ended up with what I got as the system ran at 0 detectable in the water column all the time except for when I dosed it

 

[Tankkeepers]

Thank you again for the debate its very rare I find someone who knows as much probly more then I do about chemistry and biology its very invigorating

 

[Lasse]

Nema Problema

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tankkeepers]

Deleted becouse I cant figure out how to explain it and its extreamly unlikly to happen to any one ever so not importaint again thank you for everything

 

[Tankkeepers]

Deleting cause I can't figure out how to word it

 

[Lasse]

No not you at all @Lasse. You actually write english very well for it not being your native language. You just happen to post just before I did. I was referring to every post by @Tankkeepers, here and in other sections of the forum.

Punctuation goes a long way in conveying tone, meaning, and just generally good english.

Long run on sentence get very confusing when people can't understand what your trying to say because there is no punctuation to know where one idea stops and another starts therefore people tend to overlook every post made by that poster

Get the idea?

I have sort it up with @Tankkeepers through PM and there are no hard feelings at all. You will get the explanation for the way he express himself here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[P-Dub]

I have sort it up with @Tankkeepers through PM and there are no hard feelings at all. You will get the explanation for the way he express himself here

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for clearing that up @Lasse. Beating on people for mundane things is not what R2R is about. Discussions, sometimes vigorous, are often very informative and enlightening. Particularly when knowledgable folk partake.

 

[Dan_P]

Here it comes but this is ecology and it is not easy to test as a cause - effect in a petri dish. But can you repeat tests with the common used Guillard's F/2 nutrient media solution and if that not work as an mat forming agent - just add amino acids. I would first test with a solution like F/2 but without the vitamins. Next step - if nothing happens - ad the vitamins - and still no mat forming - ad some amino acids. Formula for F/2 - here You can by it too - seek for F/2 media

IMO fIf you can show that amino acids are essential for nitrogen uptake among mat building cyanobacteria - it would be a breakthrough. In my thought below I have assumed that

Your findings - if you are able to repeat them - corresponds with reports saying that adding amino acids sometimes can trigg cyanobacteria outbreak - but there is also outbreak in aquariums without adding amino acids - in fact it is very common in newly started aquariums without any internal production of amino acids. However - amino acids is a commonly used additive for low nutrient systems and probably common in poorly skimmed systems. Amino acids is the building blocks for proteins. Amino acids is an interesting organic nitrogen compound because it have been shown that the uptake of it in single cells are faster than the uptake of NH3/NH4. Cyanobacteria are either unicellular organisms or consist of a single cell layer with the cells in a row. Most micro algae is alike in cell construction including dinoflagellates. Your findings indicate that these benthic cyanobacteria can use amino acids and inorganic PO4 in the water column. So can microalgae too and if amino acids are an essential nitrogen source for cyanobacteria (you tests indicate that) it will not overturn my theory - instead it strengthens the theory in a complex ecosystem. However - I have to go back one or two steps and reinstall competition of space as an factor

In a ecosystem - benthic organisms compete for food and space and if different organism have the same demands - the speed of growth will decide which organism that will dominate. If food is there - the fight for space is the most important issue, hence growth speed have an enormous importance

For me - it's clear that normal microalgae have a faster growth than mat building cyanobacteria when all demands are satisfied. If we look at the two main combatants - cyanobacteria and microalgae I think that we can look at this first

1. Both can use free inorganic P (as PO4)
2. Cyanobacteria have a possibility to use PO4 produced by anaerobic bacteria below the mats either from metal bounded PO4 (with help of H2S) or through bacterial mineralization of organic matter. Microalgae in general can´t that with exception of dinoflagellates that can "dive" into the bottom substrate and pick up produced PO4. Maybe some other mobile microalgae can this too.
3. Your experiments indicate that mat forming benthic cyanobacteria prefer amino acids (or maybe demand) as nitrogen source.
4. Microalgae can use amino acids but also NH3/NH4 and for many of them NO3 too.
5. In a given situation all of these nitrogen sources is evenly spread and will be used on an equal basis of each type of organisms - the amount of individuals of the different organisms will decide the use of it and how much space that it is occupied of each organism involved.

Enhanced theory for triggers that induce mat forming if amino acids is cyanobacterias prefered nitrogen source.

This is only free fantasies - it could be this way, it could be partly this way or it can total opposite to this way - but I hope this will stimulate the discussion

PO4 > 0.03 mg/l; all nitrogen sources constant above 0.4 mg/L as N

No change in competition

PO4 -> 0.03; Inorganic N sources constant; concentration of amino acid rise

As long as it is not to much rise of amino acids - no change in competition

PO4 -> 0; all nitrogen sources constant

Microalgae will have difficulties with growth - grow rate decline - their use of amino acids as nitrogen source decline. Result - more space and amino acids for the cyanobacteria will result in mat forming and suddenly they have free access to both PO4 and amino acids. PO4 rich environment will be occupied first (areas with organic matter and other stored PO4 sources - including newly dead coral tissue)

PO4 ->0; Inorganic N sources constant; concentration of amino acid rise

Speeding up the above process

PO4 steady above 0.03 mg/L Amino acid constant - inorganic nitrogen sources ->0

Microalgae will have difficulties with growth - grow rate decline - their use of amino acids as nitrogen source decline. Result - more space and amino acids for the cyanobacteria will result in mat forming and suddenly they have free access to both PO4 and amino acids. Amino rich environment will be occupied first (areas with organic matter - including newly dead coral tissue)

PO4 steady above 0.03 mg/L Amino acid rising - inorganic nitrogen sources ->0

Speeding up the above process

PO4 -> 0; amino acids constant or rising; Inorganic Nitrogen -> 0

Catastrophe

This is a try to explain the start of the problem. IMO – keeping a PO4 concentration above 0.03 – 0.05 mg/L, keeping inorganic nitrogen NH3/NH4 and/or NO3 above certain levels (NO3) or keep a flux of it (NH3/NH4) through the system and as low levels of amino acids as possible will prevent most cyanobacteria outbreaks in a large scale. However small outbreak on dead coral tissues or other organic concentrated waste can always happens.

How to act when an outbreak has happened.

Local outbreak

I normally just take a toothbrush and brush away the cyanobacteria from dead corals or just brush away organic matter. Check my nutrient levels

Heavy outbreak

Because of heavy outbreak normally spreads all over – it is – IMO – important too add NO3 (hinder H2S formation below the mats) and disturb the mats as much as possible. PO4 concentration above 0.05 and NO3 between 5-10 mg/L. If possible – lower the light intensity and let it slowly rise up too normal levels during 2 – 3 weeks. Stop all amino acid additions.

This trick have worked for me for many years and I know a lot of people that handle the problem the same way

Sincerely Lasse

OK @Lasse, here is my long reply.

Why do cyanobacteria grow on some surfaces but not others? Why don’t these microorganisms appear on all surfaces at the same time? What do these surfaces have in common that can support dense rapid growth of cyanobacteria? These were some of the questions that I had in mind when I began a year long study to understand the conditions for growing cyanobacteria films and mats outside the aquarium.

What I quickly learned was something that is common knowledge among microbiologists: growing dense cultures requires high concentrations of nutrients. The same holds true for filamentous cyanobacteria from my aquarium. For the very thin filamentous cyanobacteria, this meant providing concentrations of nitrate and phosphate that exceeded what is normally found in aquaria. For the larger filamentous cyanobacteria, presumably Oscillatoria, high concentrations of the amino acid glutamine and phosphate were required for thick mat formation. @taricha found fish flakes particularly useful in coaxing a red Oscillatoria to form films and mats. In our many discussions about conditions that support luxurious cyanobacteria growth, @taricha and I wondered about the possibility that cyanobacteria growth was simply a result of locally high concentrations of organic matter and how such concentrations could be achieved.

Poor aquarium circulation is already a popular explanation for cyanobacteria outbreaks. Localized accumulation and bacterial decomposition of particulate organic matter is suggested to result in local nitrogen and phosphorous levels well above that measured in the water. Every aquarium has such particulate matter, consisting of uneaten fish food, feces, slime, mucous, dying and dead organisms. In addition to this mechanism for particulate accumulation, bacteria and cyanobacteria bio films enhance the stickiness of surrounding surfaces and collect even more material. Cyanobacteria may have an additional mechanism for concentrating particulates. Particulates can fall through the cyanobacteria films and become protected from redistribution by water currents. Since organic matter is rarely measured, accumulation of particulate matter as a cause of cyanobacteria growth can only be a provisional explanation. From the perspective of this provisional explanation, it might be interesting to look at another provisional explanation for cyanobacteria growth: nitrate concentration.

How does a low nitrate concentration stimulate cyanobacteria growth? How does taking the counterintuitive action of increasing the amount of a possible cyanobacteria nutrient decrease the likelihood of cyanobacteria growth? There are two popular explanations for why a low nitrate concentration enables cyanobacteria growth. One states that a low nitrate level results in the demise of microorganisms, micro algae for example, that would otherwise outcompete cyanobacteria for nutrients. I will refer to this idea as the competition theory. The other explanation is that a low concentration of nitrate increases the possibility of sulfate reduction to hydrogen sulfide, resulting in the release of metal bound phosphate. This increased phosphate concentration in turn supports vigorous cyanobacteria growth. I will refer to this explanation as the phosphate trigger theory.

Competition Theory

At a low nitrate concentration, a competing microorganism population is diminished and cyanobacteria growth is stimulated by the increased availability of nutrients. For this explanation to work, an assumption has to be made that a low nitrate concentration in the system means a nitrogen starved system. There is no other nitrogen source for the competing microorganism population to use in place of nitrate. Growth experiments suggest that such nitrogen starvation also inhibits dense cyanobacteria growth. And nitrogen fixation by cyanobacteria in aquaria has not been demonstrated. Another serious shortcoming of the competition theory is the lack of an explanation for localized growth. Most cyanobacteria grow in dense patches, not all over the aquarium. Are the competing microorganisms diminished only in the area of the sand bed where cyanobacteria are growing? One might be tempted to invoke loss of competition for a scarce element as the reason for cyanobacteria growth. Iron is a popular candidate. Competition for a scarce element does not help the theory because it too fails to address both the nitrogen starvation and patchy growth issues.

Phosphorous Trigger

There is a notion in the aquarium hobby of nuisance organisms ready to spring into a bloom, but for the lack of one nutrient to trigger its growth. The unspoken assumption in this idea is that there is plenty of every other nutrient available to the microorganism. Based on cyanobacteria growth experiments, a phosphorous trigger has to assume plentiful nitrogen in the system, seemingly at odds with the competition theory where a low nitrate concentration results in vigorous cyanobacteria growth.

The mechanism for the phosphorous trigger is the nitrate concentration, a low level of nitrate allows sulfate reduction to hydrogen sulfide. The sulfide then reacts with metal bound phosphate to form a metal sulfide and free phosphate. Addition of nitrate is said to interfere with this process. Reported effective levels range from 10’s to 100’s of ppm nitrate, a less than desirable level in most marine systems and higher than suggested levels for cyanobacteria control.

The phosphate trigger theory is worth considering only if there is a sufficient quantity of metal phosphates in the system. This has not been demonstrated in aquarium with sand bottoms. Further, this theory does not explain cyanobacteria growth in bare bottom systems.

Conclusion

The continuing presence of cyanobacteria growth in our aquaria (and debate about its cause) is really the only solid piece of data we have on the subject. I would love to design a small scale experiment that demonstrates that a small amount of nitrate discourages cyanobacteria growth. Short of setting up a dozen small aquaria, I am not sure how to precede. Any ideas?

Dan

 

[Lasse]

To the phosphate theory add organic matter in the substrate. If it is there - they will use it when the mats have start to form

There is reports from natural water that says 2 ppm nitrate will hinder hydrogen sulphide production

You state that organic matter will be the reason for mat forming. I have never clean my sand or anything during 4 years - lot of organics in different places - no cyano. I do not say that organic matter not cause cyano mats - if I have it - it is small patches there coral tissue just have died but I never get these huge outbreaks

Further on - you said before that you have not seen any written about this - here is some ideas

You can say - but it has not been done in my aquarium but this indicate that my thought not is very rare

From this

It is possible that cyanobacteria out-compete other periphyton species in oligotrophic conditions, with their proposed ability to fix nitrogen and/or source nutrients from their substrate. (page 65 my note)

Interestingly, total nitrogen and nitrate were found to have a weak positive correlation with M. varians growth, although this was not significant. When presence data was considered, both total nitrogen and nitrate-N were found to share strong linear relationships (R2 =0.73 and 0.63 respectively) with M. varians growth. Total nitrogen was found in much higher concentration at site 2 than at any other site (Appendix 3). Total nitrogen and nitrate-N had negative relationships with river flow, thus they were highest in times of low and stable flow. Melosira varians growth therefore occurred when nitrogen levels were high and river flow was low, while cyanobacterial growth occurred when nitrogen levels were low and likely at insufficient levels for M. varians growth. When nitrogen levels were high, M. varians smothered and out-competed cyanobacteria. This is consistent with the investigation of Vis et al; (2008) who showed a shift in composition from chlorophytes to cyanobacteria along a gradient of decreasing nitrate, while Biggs and Price (1987) demonstrated M. varians occurrence required higher enrichment levels than Phormidium.

When mats is formed N is no problem even if you do not have any results from aquarium - probably because no one have investegate that

Do a Google search with this - cyanobacteria mats nitrogen fixation and you can read your way to christmas evening

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

A little bit more (to the next christmas eve)

Sincerely Lasse