Help with mature tank

[Kirschy17]

Help with fixing long lasting issues with my mature reef tank.

I have a mature reef tank with coral and fish and i have some minor issues for some time now.

Because my 2 part dosing system was never set up properly i have very low alk and cal levels. This is obviously a big issue but the coral in my tank is fine - i have stylopora, a lobo some duncans, candy canes and some ricordea and rodactis mushrooms. Also a sarcophyton leather and a small torch.

my concern is that i keep having issues es with cyano and i noticed that theres no pods in my tank. Neighter small copepods nor amphipods.

I also struggeled with keeping blennies - i was always concerned if the algea growth in my tank is unhealthy. I also have high phosphate and low nitrates (0 or very low)

I would be helpfull for anyone experienced in fixing up old tanks because im kindoff scared to change things as it has been going decently for years with very low maintenance.

The tank has been trunning for 8 years and currently has 2 fish. I feed frozen food daily.

No coral food nor other additives.

 

[mcarroll]

Help with fixing long lasting issues with my mature reef tank.

I have a mature reef tank with coral and fish and i have some minor issues for some time now.

Because my 2 part dosing system was never set up properly i have very low alk and cal levels. This is obviously a big issue but the coral in my tank is fine - i have stylopora, a lobo some duncans, candy canes and some ricordea and rodactis mushrooms. Also a sarcophyton leather and a small torch.

my concern is that i keep having issues es with cyano and i noticed that theres no pods in my tank. Neighter small copepods nor amphipods.

I also struggeled with keeping blennies - i was always concerned if the algea growth in my tank is unhealthy. I also have high phosphate and low nitrates (0 or very low)

I would be helpfull for anyone experienced in fixing up old tanks because im kindoff scared to change things as it has been going decently for years with very low maintenance.

The tank has been trunning for 8 years and currently has 2 fish. I feed frozen food daily.

No coral food nor other additives.

If your coral are fine, then you may not really have a problem per se. Don't go fixing what isn't broken. ;)

That said, here are some things....

Stabilize dosing somehow and see if the other issues self-correct in the weeks after that.

Of course keep up with manual algae removal in the mean time and make sure your CUC has enough algae eaters on it.

If the added stability in dosing doesn't help, then another thing to check is flow in the tank. What was "OK" or even "great" 8 years ago might not be nearly so adequate with the tank fully stocked and corals grown in. At minimum remove all the flow pumps from the tank and give them a deep cleaning so they are the best they can be. But then be a harsh critic of the tank's flow and, if needed, add another pump or upgrade the ones you have. Corals need excellent flow almost more than they need anything else. This will assist with all other issues as well.

What do you mean by unhealthy algae growth? Maybe post photos of your algae? FYI, most blennies seem to eat the food we give them in preference to algae.....so if there was something actually wrong with the algae, IMO your fish would just have eaten whatever froze you offer.

How is your tank being filtered and maintained?

 

[Kirschy17]

If your coral are fine, then you may not really have a problem per se. Don't go fixing what isn't broken. ;)

That said, here are some things....

Stabilize dosing somehow and see if the other issues self-correct in the weeks after that.

Of course keep up with manual algae removal in the mean time and make sure your CUC has enough algae eaters on it.

If the added stability in dosing doesn't help, then another thing to check is flow in the tank. What was "OK" or even "great" 8 years ago might not be nearly so adequate with the tank fully stocked and corals grown in. At minimum remove all the flow pumps from the tank and give them a deep cleaning so they are the best they can be. But then be a harsh critic of the tank's flow and, if needed, add another pump or upgrade the ones you have. Corals need excellent flow almost more than they need anything else. This will assist with all other issues as well.

What do you mean by unhealthy algae growth? Maybe post photos of your algae? FYI, most blennies seem to eat the food we give them in preference to algae.....so if there was something actually wrong with the algae, IMO your fish would just have eaten whatever froze you offer.

How is your tank being filtered and maintained?

Thank you for that nice comment. Exactly why i ended up posting because i was being stuck between the things i know are not perfect and the fact that the tank looks rather fine.

The dosing is my first step now. Only thing is that with the 2 part (3 part) i have raising cal is very hard so i need some additional buffer to get to normal levels.

The tank is a 65g aio red sea. I have a protein skimmer, i run activated carbon and have some porous material in a back chamber as a refugium/bio filter.

As i said with live going on I dont have a fixed waterchange schedule and would only really do waterchanges if neccesary when corals were looking unhappy. I lost my bubble tip anemone after it got irritated last summer because my tank gets borderline to warm in summer ~29-30 C.

I do clean pumps from time to time as you say they get clogged up.

Regarding algae and cuc i never really get the hang of how much is needed. I just know that some that i add dont live very long (even after proper acclimation) and some live forever.

I currently have: one wild hitchhiker urchin(can be seen in picture), one large black/red brittle star und 3 trochus/3 nassarius snails as well as a rather healthy population of wild cuc like colonista snails, bristle worms(regular amount regular size) some small feather worms and some wild mussels that i got with liverock. If i think about it only the trochus and urchin are real algea eaters.

Regarding „unhealthy algae growth“: I do have „healthy“ algae growth which is some hair algae bundles in a few spots. I am not concerned with those. They grow if i overfeed and if i wanted i am reasonibly sure i could get rid of them with more waterchanges/changing skimmer cup more often.

Most of my „algae“ is this weird red slimy stuff on my back wall. I have asked the forums before and identified it as cyano. My 3 stage rodi does have a di stage but from time to time i oversaturate the resin and some silica i think gets in the tank from tapwater (1-2 tds rodi water)

This cyano grows on dead spots which is mainly my backwall and pump cables. I have been told it happens from disbalance in mature tanks and that fits. I also heard it can be harmfull to algae eaters.

I also had something i diagnosed as dinos (under microscope) in the past which i treated with nitrate dosing and got rid off.

one thing that worries me is that i dont see any pods at all in my tank - i did have a rusting magnet in the tank around the time i lost my bubble tip also. Is it possible something like that wiped my population?

I kept a mandarin for 5-6 years in the tank and had lots of copepods. Now i see nothing. Did they all starve and now they are gone entirely? Can i just re seed that?

Thank you so much for the advice!

 

[Bruttall]

Triton ICP now offers a Test subscription where they send you all the trace elements your tank needs based off a water test, 12 month commitment, for my nearly 400g system cost is $109 a month, I think that is cheap honestly.

Read More at https://www.triton.de/en

 

[mcarroll]

Thank you for that nice comment. Exactly why i ended up posting because i was being stuck between the things i know are not perfect and the fact that the tank looks rather fine.

The dosing is my first step now. Only thing is that with the 2 part (3 part) i have raising cal is very hard so i need some additional buffer to get to normal levels.

As long as you can dial in alkalinity stability, you have a LOT more leeway in Ca and Mg to get things right.

Levels are much less crucial for both probably because there's so much more Ca and Mg in the water to begin with.

The tank is a 65g aio red sea. I have a protein skimmer, i run activated carbon and have some porous material in a back chamber as a refugium/bio filter.

The AC and added bio-media could be removed, with AC only being used as-needed.

Bio-media is nice if you want to jump start another tank, but if you have no plans for that, the space would be better used to hold more water/allow more flow instead of oxidizing and denitrifying N "prematurely".

As i said with live going on I dont have a fixed waterchange schedule and would only really do waterchanges if neccesary when corals were looking unhappy. I lost my bubble tip anemone after it got irritated last summer because my tank gets borderline to warm in summer ~29-30 C.

From stuff I've read, the only thing that makes corals (anemones, etc) susceptible to high temperatures is too little phosphate. Of course phosphate supply has limitations based on flow, so flow is equally a concern.

Could have been other factors of course, but PO4/flow limitations would be at the top of my list of "probable causes".....looking at heat only as a coincidence. (30ºC isn't *that* hot.)

I do clean pumps from time to time as you say they get clogged up.

Those pumps require it, so I understand.

IMO I'd still consider adding another (3rd?) pump to the mix, even if it's not the same type of pump. At least to see what you think. Start with a cheapie pump just to observe what the added flow is like.

Regarding algae and cuc i never really get the hang of how much is needed. I just know that some that i add dont live very long (even after proper acclimation) and some live forever.

I currently have: one wild hitchhiker urchin(can be seen in picture), one large black/red brittle star und 3 trochus/3 nassarius snails as well as a rather healthy population of wild cuc like colonista snails, bristle worms(regular amount regular size) some small feather worms and some wild mussels that i got with liverock. If i think about it only the trochus and urchin are real algea eaters.

Yeah, that's a ton of scavengers. IMO when you add CUC going forward, don't add a mix....just go for larger herbivore snails. Don't add too many at once.

Regarding „unhealthy algae growth“: I do have „healthy“ algae growth which is some hair algae bundles in a few spots. I am not concerned with those. They grow if i overfeed and if i wanted i am reasonibly sure i could get rid of them with more waterchanges/changing skimmer cup more often.

Most of my „algae“ is this weird red slimy stuff on my back wall. I have asked the forums before and identified it as cyano. My 3 stage rodi does have a di stage but from time to time i oversaturate the resin and some silica i think gets in the tank from tapwater (1-2 tds rodi water)

This cyano grows on dead spots which is mainly my backwall and pump cables. I have been told it happens from disbalance in mature tanks and that fits. I also heard it can be harmfull to algae eaters.

This also somewhat points to making some improvement to flow.

Of course try to stay on top of the DI replacement to keep TDS at zero (especially if you know your water has high silicates).

But silicates would yield diatoms...so silicates is not the main "problem" even if what you describe with your DI is happening.

Other things can be in that TDS, and whatever else it is, that's the probable source feeding the excessive cyano.

A little coming and going here and there can be normal...same as for hair algae and even bubble algae.

I also had something i diagnosed as dinos (under microscope) in the past which i treated with nitrate dosing and got rid off.

one thing that worries me is that i dont see any pods at all in my tank - i did have a rusting magnet in the tank around the time i lost my bubble tip also. Is it possible something like that wiped my population?

Hopefully you also dosed phosphate.....dosing only N can cause even bigger issues.

If it was a rusted neodymium magnet, yes....but I'd never describe that corrosion as "rust". It's bright blue/blue-green.

But if you're seeing a rusted ferrous magnet, that's likely iron pulled out of the water column just stuck to the magnet. The magnet itself should be inert to saltwater.

I kept a mandarin for 5-6 years in the tank and had lots of copepods. Now i see nothing. Did they all starve and now they are gone entirely? Can i just re seed that?

That's probably the most direct solution, but also the most piecemeal. One species at a time. It would (also) be beneficial to add a new chunk of live rock IMO.

Thank you so much for the advice!

Good luck!

 

[Kirschy17]

Triton ICP now offers a Test subscription where they send you all the trace elements your tank needs based off a water test, 12 month commitment, for my nearly 400g system cost is $109 a month, I think that is cheap honestly.

Read More at https://www.triton.de/en

Very reasonable suggestion - hardly doable with my current finances and i am not sure that trace elements are my biggest issue - i am suspecting bio diversity and low nutrients.

Thank you anyways and i would definitely do something like that if i ever upgrade to a more sophisticated and larger system.

 

[Bruttall]

Very reasonable suggestion - hardly doable with my current finances and i am not sure that trace elements are my biggest issue - i am suspecting bio diversity and low nutrients.

Thank you anyways and i would definitely do something like that if i ever upgrade to a more sophisticated and larger system.

You can also do a 1 time ICP test to find out EXACTLY what is lacking in your tank. They test for 41 different trace elements. Prior to this new sub, I still did 4 ICP tests a year at least.

Here is a sample from my last test.

I like knowing. Good luck to you.

 

[Kirschy17]

Thanks again for the great reply!

As long as you can dial in alkalinity stability, you have a LOT more leeway in Ca and Mg to get things right.

Levels are much less crucial for both probably because there's so much more Ca and Mg in the water to begin with.

I have has trouble measuring cal - with 2 seperate new testkits i did not get a reading in the normal range - might be because it was overdosed or is too low. Just raising alkalinity to a stable 8-9 would be reasonable before i start tracking cal and later mg?

The AC and added bio-media could be removed, with AC only being used as-needed.

Bio-media is nice if you want to jump start another tank, but if you have no plans for that, the space would be better used to hold more water/allow more flow instead of oxidizing and denitrifying N "prematurely".

The AC i had initially as a preventive measure in case my anemone suddenly desintegrates.

The Bio media was supposed to be there as a pod refugium. What you mean with my low feeding and fishstock its now nitrifying too much Nitrate and is leeching phosphates from builtup detritus? Just remove bio mass and increase flow? Remember the bio media is in the back chamber of the aio tank. The water is still circulating so it does not really create a low flow area does it?

From stuff I've read, the only thing that makes corals (anemones, etc) susceptible to high temperatures is too little phosphate. Of course phosphate supply has limitations based on flow, so flow is equally a concern.

Could have been other factors of course, but PO4/flow limitations would be at the top of my list of "probable causes".....looking at heat only as a coincidence. (30ºC isn't *that* hot.)

I think phosphate is the only thing i allways have too much of. I remember 0.3 the last time i measured. I assume that is leeching from detritus in the sand, AC and Bio media?

That's probably the most direct solution, but also the most piecemeal. One species at a time. It would (also) be beneficial to add a new chunk of live rock IMO.

How can i prevent that from happening again, is it necesary to dose phyto on a regular basis? I did that for some time to be certain to maintain enough for my mandarin. I also used to feed my lps a lot of different coral foods but stopped because i never really saw much of a difference in growth. I always felt like the frozen food would substitute nutrients enough. Fresh live rock sounds like a good idea!

Those pumps require it, so I understand.

IMO I'd still consider adding another (3rd?) pump to the mix, even if it's not the same type of pump. At least to see what you think. Start with a cheapie pump just to observe what the added flow is like.

I do have a rather large jebao wavemaker in addition to the sicce return pumps. The shape of the tank makes flow a bit hard as its rather tall and wide but also narrow from front to to back. Behind the rocks which are building a center reef theres low flow.

 

[mcarroll]

I have has trouble measuring cal - with 2 seperate new testkits i did not get a reading in the normal range - might be because it was overdosed or is too low. Just raising alkalinity to a stable 8-9 would be reasonable before i start tracking cal and later mg?

If you have doubts about your tests, then start with stabilizing your testing before you worry about making adjustments. (Instead, just do regular water changes if possible. Add N&P to your new water change water so you don't crash nutrient levels in the process.)

This might sound like "duh" but just practice with the test kit of your choice (don't keep switching) until you get repeatable results. Some kits are easier than others, but most conventional test kits are pretty similar to one another....so the practice will pay you back on all your testing.

E.g. Mix up a fresh batch of seawater (or even test your tapwater; if the Ca level is on your water report you'll even have a target) and test it at least three times in a row. If your results all match, you're done practicing. Otherwise, re-test three more time, and try to figure out what you can do better/correct. I've done this process with any new test kit that's got any level of complexity to it at all....seems to work! I can even get reliable results from the Hanna Calcium meter after practicing. (It's cheaper to practice with conventional kits vs Hanna.)

Once you're confident in your test results you can make more specific adjustments (eg) to Ca and Mg.

The Bio media was supposed to be there as a pod refugium. What you mean with my low feeding and fishstock its now nitrifying too much Nitrate and is leeching phosphates from builtup detritus? Just remove bio mass and increase flow? Remember the bio media is in the back chamber of the aio tank. The water is still circulating so it does not really create a low flow area does it?

I don't think you really have to do anything to make a pod refugium.....everything in the tank should be a pod refugium unless you're running a strange aquascape with minimal cover.

More water/more flow is the concept...taking these things out is like reclamation. In the case of bio media, you're improving the quantity of water more than you're making a relevant improvement to flow...and more importantly you're giving your corals more priority to the available N in the system (by removing bio-mass; but specifically bio-mass that's oxidizing N at a high rate...so very targeted).

I think phosphate is the only thing i allways have too much of. I remember 0.3 the last time i measured. I assume that is leeching from detritus in the sand, AC and Bio media?

Just speculating....lots of things can go wrong. If the system's PO4 levels were that high at the time the temperature was elevated, then I would just not suspect temperature as the cause.

PO4 is pretty much always from feeding....the question is about uptake. Having such low levels of N available might be limiting phosphate uptake for some organisms (anywhere n&p are needed together).

Going forward I would consider dosing some form of N until you regularly see ≥ 5 ppm NO3 in testing....if removing excess filtration doesn't do that for you.

How can i prevent that from happening again, is it necesary to dose phyto on a regular basis? I did that for some time to be certain to maintain enough for my mandarin. I also used to feed my lps a lot of different coral foods but stopped because i never really saw much of a difference in growth. I always felt like the frozen food would substitute nutrients enough. Fresh live rock sounds like a good idea!

Well, unless you have a large, established reef, a Mandarin is going to deplete your system of pods. It's a given – Mandarins are good at what they do! I don't think phyto will make any difference.

So either save the Mandarine for (way) later, or....

Do the new live rock and do add pods, but also consider some of @Paul B 's ideas on feeding: For example, he hatches baby brine shrimp and feeds them all the time. (Pretty easy his way.....his book is great too, BTW, if you like his ideas. But check out his posts on his DIY hatchery and DIY feeding thingy.) But he does other live foods too. You'll need some kind of regular supplementation.

I do have a rather large jebao wavemaker in addition to the sicce return pumps. The shape of the tank makes flow a bit hard as its rather tall and wide but also narrow from front to to back. Behind the rocks which are building a center reef theres low flow.

Return flow probably isn't a significant factor in overall flow, but it can be very crucial if corals are growing near the return outlet – it's can be a regular source of detritus if you don't to mechanical filtration! Food!!!

Skinny tanks are definitely a challenge – another factor (like grown-out corals) that might necessitate more flow than "average".

Certainly make the most of the pumps you have first. If you're using "wave modes" or anything like that, the unspoken side effect is that the pump is spending A LOT of time NOT at 100% flow. Consider programming less (or zero) off time and see how that works out.

Try minor variations in pump placement. But also try totally switching up the placement of your pumps to see if that helps. Try all pumps on one side of the tank. Try all of them on the back. Etc. Make sure you've tried everything that could make sense. In case it helps: Open spaces are where you create whole-tank flow; if the tank is so crowded there are no significant open spaces then you'll have to add more pumps directly for areas of low flow. (Much smaller pumps can be used, but you end up needing a lot of them. Whole-tank flow is MUCH better/simpler/cheaper.)

But adding another (or upgrading a) pump might be what it takes. (E.g. a Tunze 6020/6040 will fit into places not many pumps will fit.) 4 pumps is not "too many". It takes what it takes...mostly being dictated by your corals choices and tank layout.

Probably the last choice you want to consider, but removing stuff from the tank to make more room (for flow) is a legitimate option too.

 

[Kirschy17]

If you have doubts about your tests, then start with stabilizing your testing before you worry about making adjustments. (Instead, just do regular water changes if possible. Add N&P to your new water change water so you don't crash nutrient levels in the process.)

This might sound like "duh" but just practice with the test kit of your choice (don't keep switching) until you get repeatable results. Some kits are easier than others, but most conventional test kits are pretty similar to one another....so the practice will pay you back on all your testing.

E.g. Mix up a fresh batch of seawater (or even test your tapwater; if the Ca level is on your water report you'll even have a target) and test it at least three times in a row. If your results all match, you're done practicing. Otherwise, re-test three more time, and try to figure out what you can do better/correct. I've done this process with any new test kit that's got any level of complexity to it at all....seems to work! I can even get reliable results from the Hanna Calcium meter after practicing. (It's cheaper to practice with conventional kits vs Hanna.)

Once you're confident in your test results you can make more specific adjustments (eg) to Ca and Mg.


I don't think you really have to do anything to make a pod refugium.....everything in the tank should be a pod refugium unless you're running a strange aquascape with minimal cover.

More water/more flow is the concept...taking these things out is like reclamation. In the case of bio media, you're improving the quantity of water more than you're making a relevant improvement to flow...and more importantly you're giving your corals more priority to the available N in the system (by removing bio-mass; but specifically bio-mass that's oxidizing N at a high rate...so very targeted).


Just speculating....lots of things can go wrong. If the system's PO4 levels were that high at the time the temperature was elevated, then I would just not suspect temperature as the cause.

PO4 is pretty much always from feeding....the question is about uptake. Having such low levels of N available might be limiting phosphate uptake for some organisms (anywhere n&p are needed together).

Going forward I would consider dosing some form of N until you regularly see ≥ 5 ppm NO3 in testing....if removing excess filtration doesn't do that for you.


Well, unless you have a large, established reef, a Mandarin is going to deplete your system of pods. It's a given – Mandarins are good at what they do! I don't think phyto will make any difference.

So either save the Mandarine for (way) later, or....

Do the new live rock and do add pods, but also consider some of @Paul B 's ideas on feeding: For example, he hatches baby brine shrimp and feeds them all the time. (Pretty easy his way.....his book is great too, BTW, if you like his ideas. But check out his posts on his DIY hatchery and DIY feeding thingy.) But he does other live foods too. You'll need some kind of regular supplementation.


Return flow probably isn't a significant factor in overall flow, but it can be very crucial if corals are growing near the return outlet – it's can be a regular source of detritus if you don't to mechanical filtration! Food!!!

Skinny tanks are definitely a challenge – another factor (like grown-out corals) that might necessitate more flow than "average".

Certainly make the most of the pumps you have first. If you're using "wave modes" or anything like that, the unspoken side effect is that the pump is spending A LOT of time NOT at 100% flow. Consider programming less (or zero) off time and see how that works out.

Try minor variations in pump placement. But also try totally switching up the placement of your pumps to see if that helps. Try all pumps on one side of the tank. Try all of them on the back. Etc. Make sure you've tried everything that could make sense. In case it helps: Open spaces are where you create whole-tank flow; if the tank is so crowded there are no significant open spaces then you'll have to add more pumps directly for areas of low flow. (Much smaller pumps can be used, but you end up needing a lot of them. Whole-tank flow is MUCH better/simpler/cheaper.)

But adding another (or upgrading a) pump might be what it takes. (E.g. a Tunze 6020/6040 will fit into places not many pumps will fit.) 4 pumps is not "too many". It takes what it takes...mostly being dictated by your corals choices and tank layout.

Probably the last choice you want to consider, but removing stuff from the tank to make more room (for flow) is a legitimate option too.

I didnt get to thank you again last time but i would like to give short update to my tank.

I followed your guide and feel like im very close to a stable system again. I started measuring alk daily. First day it was at around 4-4.5 which was the level of the tank for a long time. I have increased to 8-9 now and currently figuring out my daily uptake to set up correct daily dosage.

Regarding biodiversity and nutrition i bought like 1-2 lb new live rock and seeded the tank with copepods and im dosing phyto for the next 2 weeks to get the copepods going.

I also remived ceramic bio media and activated carbon to macimize flow.

I also tried to improve rockwork and clean up the sand to reduve liw flow areas.

Tank looks great already - i also started feeding some coral food powder daily to increase nutrients.

Theres still a few minor issues that i want to tackle next:

I must have overdosed cal because the reason my test kit fails is that my cal is way high. Cal is above 500 somewhere in the range of 700 approximately - with two test kits i need more than 1ml syringe to get to the color change point. My understanding is high cal is no issue and will deplete once corals use alk to grow.

Second problem is a disbalance in phosphate and nitrate.

I have very high phosphate at 0.4 and nonexistent nitrates at 0

My understanding is phosphate cannot be processed in absence of nitrate - i intend to dose nitrate and use some phosphate absorber to correct the two and aim for 0.1 phosphate and 5-10 nitrate.

One last thing is increasing bioload by getting some new fish and algae consuming cuc.

The system is a red sea max 250 aio tank.
I know fish care is something completely seperate from coral/water maintenence bit id still be curious for an oppinion.

I have had issues with keeping more than 3-4 fish in the tank.

Currently theres a king solomon basslet and a platinum percula clown.

Ideally id like to get a mate for the clown, a dragonet a blenny and 1-2 wrasses (flasher or fairy)

Also i have been trying to get a golden dwarf moray which would shift my stocking list.

Any advice on stocking a tank of this size?

Cheers!

 

[mcarroll]

Second problem is a disbalance in phosphate and nitrate.

I have very high phosphate at 0.4 and nonexistent nitrates at 0

My understanding is phosphate cannot be processed in absence of nitrate - i intend to dose nitrate and use some phosphate absorber to correct the two and aim for 0.1 phosphate and 5-10 nitrate.

Correct, phosphate consumption will be constrained, sometimes greatly constrained.

I think I would handle this similarly to your calcium situation and just let it run down on its own.

There is zero risk/harm in having an elevated level, but you can potentially screw some things up by trying to remove phosphate... and for no real benefit.

The system is a red sea max 250 aio tank

I have had issues with keeping more than 3-4 fish in the tank.

Currently theres a king solomon basslet and a platinum percula clown.

What kind of issues? And with which fish?

(Specifics usually matter.)

Any advice on stocking a tank of this size?

Nothing specific because that's usually highly personal.

But in general, I would try not to overdo it on the bio load just because low bio loads are generally easier to manage (and therefore more enjoyable at least in my opinion) and stabilize. I think of tanks that are around your tank size as being " big, small tanks" in terms of what fish I put in. It is most suited for small fish if you want to have a decent number. There are probably some medium or large size fish that could be acceptable, but in that case it might be best as a one fish tank. (I'm not talking about Tangs. No Tangs.)

Your proposed stocking list sounds pretty good with the caveat that I don't know too much about the Morray so I don't know if that's a practical option or not.

 

[Kirschy17]

Correct, phosphate consumption will be constrained, sometimes greatly constrained.

I think I would handle this similarly to your calcium situation and just let it run down on its own.

Help me understand this bit - what is going to use up the nitrate and phosphate? Algae right? I currently have no scrubber nor refugium. As i started feeding more frequent with the autofeeder pellet food isnt the phosphate going to rise just as well?

I have a backchamber and a small light that i bought to culticate chato there. Is that recommended? That would also help raise copepods right?

What kind of issues? And with which fish?

(Specifics usually matter.)

I actually opened a whole thread on this topic:
Thread 'Help me understand stocking a tank more deeply'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-me-understand-stocking-a-tank-more-deeply.1139459/

I would still love your thoughts but basically i lost fish after succesfull quarantine and without seing signs of illness after about 1-2 years in my tank. With help of community members we identified that feeding once per day is not enough for many fish. I ended up buying an auto feeder and start feeding dry food in addition to frozen that i was always feeding.

I have been feeding way more than i used to and also dosed kalium nitrate to bring up nitrates a bit. That has worked i have around 0.2-0.5 nitrate now with phosphate still at around 0.3

It was down to 0.2 after dosing nitrate only.

Now i am trying to figure out how not to overdo it with feeding and dump too much phosphate in my tank while still increasing feeding frequency - not easy with only 2 small fish in the tank currently.

But in general, I would try not to overdo it on the bio load just because low bio loads are generally easier to manage (and therefore more enjoyable at least in my opinion) and stabilize. I think of tanks that are around your tank size as being " big, small tanks" in terms of what fish I put in. It is most suited for small fish if you want to have a decent number. There are probably some medium or large size fish that could be acceptable, but in that case it might be best as a one fish tank. (I'm not talking about Tangs. No Tangs.)

Your proposed stocking list sounds pretty good with the caveat that I don't know too much about the Morray so I don't know if that's a practical option or not.

Regarding fish selection i also found the tank to be a bit of an inpractical size.

I would love some kind of centerpiece fish - moray being my prefered one but i dont want a single fish tank as the community of animals in the reef is what i find most fascinating. I have been eyeballing with a 70g tank upgrade to get a snowflake eel but my old appartment building probabably doesnt support 600kg tanks.

I have been looking at a pygmy angel or a blue spot toby. Both are semi reef safe and on the top end of size that is suitable. Any thoughts on them?

Also with wrasses i read flashers actually want more than a meter of swimming space? My tank is 100cm x 40cm roughly.

Thanks for your help - really making me enjoy the hobby again!!

 

[Subsea]

“Help me understand this bit - what is going to use up the nitrate and phosphate? Algae right? I currently have no scrubber nor refugium. As i started feeding more frequent with the autofeeder pellet food isnt the phosphate going to rise just as well?“

Coral has zooanthellia which is its own algae and as coral grows, it absorbs N:P:K along with trace minerals. Also, coral have specialized Cyanobacteria in their biomass that can fix nitrogen into ammonia when nitrate is limited.


AI said:
“Marine bacteria (diazotrophs) living within coral biomass (tissues, mucus, skeleton) are crucial for supplying usable nitrogen (as ammonia) to corals, especially in nutrient-poor waters, by converting atmospheric N2 into fixed forms, a process vital for coral health, productivity, and balancing their nutrient budget, with significant activity found in skeletal (endolithic) and host/symbiont compartments, often increasing with warmer temperatures.”

Diazotroph diversity and nitrogen fixation in the coral Stylophora pistillata from the Great Barrier Reef - PMC

Diazotrophs, both Bacteria and Archaea, capable of fixing nitrogen (N2), are present in the tissues and mucous, of corals and can supplement the coral holobiont nitrogen budget with fixed nitrogen (N) in the form of ammonia (NH3). Stylophora ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Diazotrophs, both Bacteria and Archaea, capable of fixing nitrogen (N2), are present in the tissues and mucous, of corals and can supplement the coral holobiont nitrogen budget with fixed nitrogen (N) in the form of ammonia (NH3). Stylophora pistillatafrom Heron Island on the Great Barrier Reef collected at 5 and 15 m, and experimentally manipulated in the laboratory, showed that the rates of net photosynthesis, steady state quantum yields of photosystem II (PSII) fluorescence (∆Fv/Fm′) and calcification varied based on irradiance as expected. Rates of N2fixation were, however, invariant across treatments while the amount of fixed N contributing to Symbiodinium spp. N demand is irradiance dependent. Additionally, both the Symbiodinium and diazotrophic communities are significantly different based on depth, and novel Cluster V nifH gene phylotypes, which are not known to fix nitrogen, were recovered. A functional analysis using PICRUSt also showed that shallow corals were enriched in genes involved in nitrogen metabolism, and N2fixation specifically.”

 

[Kirschy17]

“Help me understand this bit - what is going to use up the nitrate and phosphate? Algae right? I currently have no scrubber nor refugium. As i started feeding more frequent with the autofeeder pellet food isnt the phosphate going to rise just as well?“

Coral has zooanthellia which is its own algae and as coral grows, it absorbs N:P:K along with trace minerals. Also, coral have specialized Cyanobacteria in their biomass that can fix nitrogen into ammonia when nitrate is limited.


AI said:
“Marine bacteria (diazotrophs) living within coral biomass (tissues, mucus, skeleton) are crucial for supplying usable nitrogen (as ammonia) to corals, especially in nutrient-poor waters, by converting atmospheric N2 into fixed forms, a process vital for coral health, productivity, and balancing their nutrient budget, with significant activity found in skeletal (endolithic) and host/symbiont compartments, often increasing with warmer temperatures.”

Diazotroph diversity and nitrogen fixation in the coral Stylophora pistillata from the Great Barrier Reef - PMC

Diazotrophs, both Bacteria and Archaea, capable of fixing nitrogen (N2), are present in the tissues and mucous, of corals and can supplement the coral holobiont nitrogen budget with fixed nitrogen (N) in the form of ammonia (NH3). Stylophora ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Diazotrophs, both Bacteria and Archaea, capable of fixing nitrogen (N2), are present in the tissues and mucous, of corals and can supplement the coral holobiont nitrogen budget with fixed nitrogen (N) in the form of ammonia (NH3). Stylophora pistillatafrom Heron Island on the Great Barrier Reef collected at 5 and 15 m, and experimentally manipulated in the laboratory, showed that the rates of net photosynthesis, steady state quantum yields of photosystem II (PSII) fluorescence (∆Fv/Fm′) and calcification varied based on irradiance as expected. Rates of N2fixation were, however, invariant across treatments while the amount of fixed N contributing to Symbiodinium spp. N demand is irradiance dependent. Additionally, both the Symbiodinium and diazotrophic communities are significantly different based on depth, and novel Cluster V nifH gene phylotypes, which are not known to fix nitrogen, were recovered. A functional analysis using PICRUSt also showed that shallow corals were enriched in genes involved in nitrogen metabolism, and N2fixation specifically.”

Thank you - while this is very interesting i am still not entirely sure where this puts me in my situation. In my understanding phosphate is scarcely the used up by corals.

Thats why we generally keep it at a very low level in our tanks. I do understand that nitrate is needed for coral growth - will the corals deplete my high phosphate? Or is it mostly algae as i currently suspect. If thats the case do i want to let algae grow and consume my phosphate or try to remove it by growing macroalgae myself in a refugium?

 

[Subsea]

Thank you - while this is very interesting i am still not entirely sure where this puts me in my situation. In my understanding phosphate is scarcely the used up by corals.

Thats why we generally keep it at a very low level in our tanks. I do understand that nitrate is needed for coral growth - will the corals deplete my high phosphate? Or is it mostly algae as i currently suspect. If thats the case do i want to let algae grow and consume my phosphate or try to remove it by growing macroalgae myself in a refugium?

You assume too much uptake of phosphate by algae.

Micro algae / Phytoplankton have a N:P ratio of 16:1 which is the Redfield Ratio in Oceanorgraphy.

Macro algae / Seaweed on average have a N:P ratio of 30:1 with some fast growing weeds at 100:1

 

[vlangel]

I like having ornamental macroalgae for the purpose of utilizing PO4 especially but also NO3. Macroalgae can be very attractive and there are some that are not super invasive like codium.

Like Patrick (@Subsea) stated, its the ratio of NO3 and PO4 that you want to pay attention to. You can have a tank without much nuisance algae even with surprising high nutrients as long as the ratio is balanced. I intentionally run my tank that way so that the macroalgae always have plenty of nutrients to thrive. LOL, it also allows me to keep a heavy fish load and I love my fish! A lot of coral are ok with higher nutrients too and their colors can really shine forth in such an enviroment.

I am happy that you are enjoying your tank again. Happy reefing!

 

[Subsea]

Actually, the ratios that I named are what was measured in the seaweed biomass.. It is not necessary to have those ratios in the water; it is only necessary to have sufficient concentrations of each inorganic nutrient in the water, including trace minerals.

Seaweed growth is not controlled by the most abundant element but it can be limited by the least abundant.

 

[Subsea]

Thank you - while this is very interesting i am still not entirely sure where this puts me in my situation. In my understanding phosphate is scarcely the used up by corals.

Thats why we generally keep it at a very low level in our tanks. I do understand that nitrate is needed for coral growth - will the corals deplete my high phosphate? Or is it mostly algae as i currently suspect. If thats the case do i want to let algae grow and consume my phosphate or try to remove it by growing macroalgae myself in a refugium?

There are resins like GFO that will absorb phosphate or lanolin chloride will bind large amounts of phosphate.

 

[Kirschy17]

I like having ornamental macroalgae for the purpose of utilizing PO4 especially but also NO3. Macroalgae can be very attractive and there are some that are not super invasive like codium.

Like Patrick (@Subsea) stated, its the ratio of NO3 and PO4 that you want to pay attention to. You can have a tank without much nuisance algae even with surprising high nutrients as long as the ratio is balanced. I intentionally run my tank that way so that the macroalgae always have plenty of nutrients to thrive. LOL, it also allows me to keep a heavy fish load and I love my fish! A lot of coral are ok with higher nutrients too and their colors can really shine forth in such an enviroment.

I am happy that you are enjoying your tank again. Happy reefing!

Do you grow it in your display? Do you harvest it regularly or just let it grow?

Ill try increasing nutrients first with more feedings. I think growing macro might make sense then.

I also have a small light to put some chaeto in a backchamber of my aio as a fuge.

Thank you and all the others that are so supportive on here.

 

[Kirschy17]

You assume too much uptake of phosphate by algae.

Micro algae / Phytoplankton have a N:P ratio of 16:1 which is the Redfield Ratio in Oceanorgraphy.

Macro algae / Seaweed on average have a N:P ratio of 30:1 with some fast growing weeds at 100:1

I had no idea, thank you for that.

how does the phosphate/nitrate uptake look like in the aquarium in terms of total amount? Even tough micra algae/phytoplankton uses P to a higher degree, is the uptake of both the drivibg factor in the consumption of P in a reef tank?

How does one deal with a disbalance? Can feeding and algae consumption correct that or is gfo or nitrate dosing required?

Does a skimmer influence the balance? Skimmers remove proteins before they are broken down to P and N correct? So no direct influence on P/N ratio?