High nitrates, but low undectable phosphates help

[Brew12]

Thanks for the detailed post.

I agree that with you about the dino's. I think that could be cyano or diatoms, but probably cyano.

I would test you new saltwater before you do a water change and make sure that it really is 0ppm NO3. If it is, I would perform a 25% water change. If it's not, I would verify that your test kit is good. A 25% water change should bring your NO3 down to 45 ppm. Make sure that you blow as much detritus off of your rock work as you can.

I'm not really familiar with Radions, but I have seen the schedule for other users, and you may be running them a little low for a 90 gallon tank. I would try to slowly raise the intensity.

What I am more concerned about with your tank is the stagnant growth.

Slowly increasing your PO4 may help with that, and it may help with reducing the nitrates once things in your tank start consuming them. If you do that through dosing, just take it slow and only make one change at a time, that way you know 100% that what you did either worked or didn't.

#reefsquad
@Brew12
@saltyfilmfolks

Can anyone provide some more wisdom on how to solve @vdubreefer's tank problems?

Thanks for the invite!

It is an unusual situation that is being described. Very unusual to have high nitrates in a tank so visibly clean and fed so little.
A few questions.
How long do you run your fuge light?
What kind of salt do you use?
Have you testing nitrate with a different test kit?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

You need to dose Po4.
Fish pee and make Ammonia. =no3
Corals give of ammona too.
Food rots makes no3
Live rock processes no3 fares than Po4
Some Organisms can process organic and inorganic carbon with very little Po4.
Some organisms can process organic and inorganic Po4.
Nitrifying bacteria need organic Po4. Corals too.
Dose Po4.

 

[vdubreefer]

Thanks for the invite!

It is an unusual situation that is being described. Very unusual to have high nitrates in a tank so visibly clean and fed so little.
A few questions.
How long do you run your fuge light?
What kind of salt do you use?
Have you testing nitrate with a different test kit?

I run my fuge from 9pm to 7am

I've been using red sea blue bucket salt since March 18'

I'll pick up a new test kit today and try both freshwater and tank water and post results

 

[vdubreefer]

You need to dose Po4.
Fish pee and make Ammonia. =no3
Corals give of ammona too.
Food rots makes no3
Live rock processes no3 fares than Po4
Some Organisms can process organic and inorganic carbon with very little Po4.
Some organisms can process organic and inorganic Po4.
Nitrifying bacteria need organic Po4. Corals too.
Dose Po4.

Ok , I've been dosing 20- 45 drops of neophos every other day and turning my skimmer on every 2 days for one day then off for 2

 

[vdubreefer]

Thanks for the detailed post.

I agree that with you about the dino's. I think that could be cyano or diatoms, but probably cyano.

I would test you new saltwater before you do a water change and make sure that it really is 0ppm NO3. If it is, I would perform a 25% water change. If it's not, I would verify that your test kit is good. A 25% water change should bring your NO3 down to 45 ppm. Make sure that you blow as much detritus off of your rock work as you can.

I'm not really familiar with Radions, but I have seen the schedule for other users, and you may be running them a little low for a 90 gallon tank. I would try to slowly raise the intensity.

What I am more concerned about with your tank is the stagnant growth.

Slowly increasing your PO4 may help with that, and it may help with reducing the nitrates once things in your tank start consuming them. If you do that through dosing, just take it slow and only make one change at a time, that way you know 100% that what you did either worked or didn't.

#reefsquad
@Brew12
@saltyfilmfolks

Can anyone provide some more wisdom on how to solve @vdubreefer's tank problems?

I'll buy a new test kit today and try it out and post my results tonight, I've been putting alot of thought into this and I'm wondering with my amount of live rock, and not having sand being bare bottom, and nothing growing In my fuge, I don't have any anaerobic zones in my system to process No3 to nitrogen gas, I have my rock but I use reef saver and it's not as porous as pukani, the more I think of it, the more a deep sand bed in my fuge sounds like a good idea, attach some 90 elbows to divert my down pipes away from the bottom, and never touch just let it do its thing ?

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I'll buy a new test kit today and try it out and post my results tonight, I've been putting alot of thought into this and I'm wondering with my amount of live rock, and not having sand being bare bottom, and nothing growing In my fuge, I don't have any anaerobic zones in my system to process No3 to nitrogen gas, I have my rock but I use reef saver and it's not as porous as pukani, the more I think of it, the more a deep sand bed in my fuge sounds like a good idea, attach some 90 elbows to divert my down pipes away from the bottom, and never touch just let it do its thing ?

A lot of people run very successful bare bottom tanks. Just look at the WWC 900 and 500 gallon tanks. If you haven't checked out the video on those, you should. The WWC approach is very simple.

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/wwc-brs-recipe-for-the-iconic-900g-reef-tank/

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vide...ant-tank-thrive-the-brs-wwc-system-ep3-brstv/

IMO, most hobby tanks don't really have much of an anaerobic zone that processes NO3 as effectively as regular water changes.

Like @saltyfilmfolks said, you need PO4 in your tank. As I stated earlier, I would slowly bring up the levels of PO4 in your tank. If your new test kit confirms that your NO3 is really 60 ppm, a PO4 level slightly over 0.1 ppm isn't really to high. You may cause an algae outbreak, but that seems to be one of the things that your tank has missed out on and can be handled.

I have had great results following the advice of @saltyfilmfolks and @Brew12. Just be patient, and I am sure that in a month or two, this will be a bad memory and everything will get sorted out. Just remember, nothing good happens overnight in a reef tank.

 

[Brew12]

I'll buy a new test kit today and try it out and post my results tonight, I've been putting alot of thought into this and I'm wondering with my amount of live rock, and not having sand being bare bottom, and nothing growing In my fuge, I don't have any anaerobic zones in my system to process No3 to nitrogen gas, I have my rock but I use reef saver and it's not as porous as pukani, the more I think of it, the more a deep sand bed in my fuge sounds like a good idea, attach some 90 elbows to divert my down pipes away from the bottom, and never touch just let it do its thing ?

If anything, I believe you will find your NO3 will go up instead of down if you add more rock or a DSB. Denitrification in anaerobic zones does happen, but not at high rates in most system. I feel the fact it would trap more detritus that would then decay in your tank will cause NO3 to go up more than denitrification would lower it.

Do you run filter socks? How often do you change them?

 

[vdubreefer]

A lot of people run very successful bare bottom tanks. Just look at the WWC 900 and 500 gallon tanks. If you haven't checked out the video on those, you should. The WWC approach is very simple.

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/wwc-brs-recipe-for-the-iconic-900g-reef-tank/

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vide...ant-tank-thrive-the-brs-wwc-system-ep3-brstv/

IMO, most hobby tanks don't really have much of an anaerobic zone that processes NO3 as effectively as regular water changes.

Like @saltyfilmfolks said, you need PO4 in your tank. As I stated earlier, I would slowly bring up the levels of PO4 in your tank. If your new test kit confirms that your NO3 is really 60 ppm, a PO4 level slightly over 0.1 ppm isn't really to high. You may cause an algae outbreak, but that seems to be one of the things that your tank has missed out on and can be handled.

I have had great results following the advice of @saltyfilmfolks and @Brew12. Just be patient, and I am sure that in a month or two, this will be a bad memory and everything will get sorted out. Just remember, nothing good happens overnight in a reef tank.

I've seen those episodes. Is this how it's going to have to be forever ? 30% and 40% wc a week and dosing po4 ? I see so many tanks that don't have to do that with way more fish, my family and I travel and go on vacations, if I miss one water change I cant have my system go out of wack ya no, I'm not trying to come across ungrateful I am I just get discouraged, it's been three years with this tank I've put sooo much time and energy into this thing I just want a gorgeous beautiful super stable reef tank ya no

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I’d wager it’s got some phosphate block issue. That’s why it’s not processing the no3.

 

[vdubreefer]

If anything, I believe you will find your NO3 will go up instead of down if you add more rock or a DSB. Denitrification in anaerobic zones does happen, but not at high rates in most system. I feel the fact it would trap more detritus that would then decay in your tank will cause NO3 to go up more than denitrification would lower it.

Do you run filter socks? How often do you change them?

No filter socks, I switched to a synergy Triton TS34 sump in April 18' and before then had an elite aquatics RSS 33 before that had filter socks and I still had this problem. I'd change them every 2 days fairly religiously.

 

[vdubreefer]

I’d wager it’s got some phosphate block issue. That’s why it’s not processing the no3.

What does that mean ? Like having low phosphates will inhibit bacteria. From converting no3 to nitrogen gas ?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

What does that mean ? Like having low phosphates will inhibit bacteria. From converting no3 to nitrogen gas ?

Basically yes. Low Po4 means not enough food so the population dies off. Like in some dino tanks, it’s not actually the good bacteria processing the ammonia. It’s the dinos. :eek:

 

[dragon99]

I feel your pain. I've been battling a similar issue for almost 3 years. NO3 hasn't gone past ~20ppm, but PO4 is never more than .01-.02ppm (0.005 according to last Triton), even with dosing twice daily. I will say that my SPS perked up considerably when I started dosing PO4 daily.

definitely following to hear some of the advice.

 

[vdubreefer]

Well I just purchased a new nitrate test kit from red sea and some nori. However I'm not hopefully I have a feeling that itll be dark pink.

 

[vdubreefer]

Hey everybody I've been thinking, at the end of the initial cycle when first starting a tank, after you've seen nitrate stop rising after you have 0 ammonia and 0 no2, what happens to the nitrate at that point, how does it get removed ? Does the tank remove it or are you supposed to do a series of water changes. Essentially changing out your entire water volume bringing your nitrates to 0 is that what your supposed to do ?

 

[vdubreefer]

The reason I ask is because there is a lil bit of back story, I had this tank starting its cycle from July 2015, and had it running until January of 2018, st which point we bought a new house and moved, I broke down my tank and took my scopus tang the only fish I had at that time and my right side rock structure and put them in a temp AIO tank till march I boxed up the other rock structure and it dried out, we moved into our new house at the end of February and I set my tank back up and run it with one rock structure for about a month, and then I put in the other rock structure, straight from the box into my tank, I've been fairly religious with 15% water changes once a week since then and I'll absolutely admit that I missed a handful of weeks maybe more and roughly twice I went a month without a water change,
Should I try to do a big 50% change this weekend and another big 50% change next weekend and that should tell me if my nitrates are residual from my initial setup or something reaccuring in the tank right ? I do have 6 or so acro frags that I don't want to tick off, is 50% too much ?

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Hey everybody I've been thinking, at the end of the initial cycle when first starting a tank, after you've seen nitrate stop rising after you have 0 ammonia and 0 no2, what happens to the nitrate at that point, how does it get removed ? Does the tank remove it or are you supposed to do a series of water changes. Essentially changing out your entire water volume bringing your nitrates to 0 is that what your supposed to do ?

You have to do a series of water changes. You only need to do several to get the NO3 to 5-10 ppm. Don't shoot for 0 ppm.

I've seen those episodes. Is this how it's going to have to be forever ? 30% and 40% wc a week and dosing po4 ? I see so many tanks that don't have to do that with way more fish, my family and I travel and go on vacations, if I miss one water change I cant have my system go out of wack ya no, I'm not trying to come across ungrateful I am I just get discouraged, it's been three years with this tank I've put sooo much time and energy into this thing I just want a gorgeous beautiful super stable reef tank ya no

You don't seem ungrateful at all. We all know that it is discouraging. Once you get this sorted out, you will be fine skipping a water change or two. I currently run my tank with only a skimmer, a very small bag of carbon, and I dose 0.1 ml of NoPoX every day. I have slowly been weening my tank off of the NoPoX. Next week I am switching to 0.1 ml of NoPoX every other day and I hope to be done with it by the end of February.

You will find your stride with the tank, so try not to get too discouraged. This can be fixed.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

The reason I ask is because there is a lil bit of back story, I had this tank starting its cycle from July 2015, and had it running until January of 2018, st which point we bought a new house and moved, I broke down my tank and took my scopus tang the only fish I had at that time and my right side rock structure and put them in a temp AIO tank till march I boxed up the other rock structure and it dried out, we moved into our new house at the end of February and I set my tank back up and run it with one rock structure for about a month, and then I put in the other rock structure, straight from the box into my tank, I've been fairly religious with 15% water changes once a week since then and I'll absolutely admit that I missed a handful of weeks maybe more and roughly twice I went a month without a water change,
Should I try to do a big 50% change this weekend and another big 50% change next weekend and that should tell me if my nitrates are residual from my initial setup or something reaccuring in the tank right ? I do have 6 or so acro frags that I don't want to **** off, is 50% too much ?

You can do a 50% water change, but I would recommend 25% -30%. If you do a 50% change, try to make sure that the new water you are adding is as close in ALK, Temp and SG as you can get it. Ideally, it would be a perfect match. This will help in stressing your corals. And yes, you are correct, if you don't see a corresponding reduction in NO3, then there needs to be further research in the cause of the NO3.

As @Brew12 recommended, let's see what the other test kit says to verify your results. You could also have your water tested at a LFS if you trust them.

 

[vdubreefer]

You have to do a series of water changes. You only need to do several to get the NO3 to 5-10 ppm. Don't shoot for 0 ppm.



You don't seem ungrateful at all. We all know that it is discouraging. Once you get this sorted out, you will be fine skipping a water change or two. I currently run my tank with only a skimmer, a very small bag of carbon, and I dose 0.1 ml of NoPoX every day. I have slowly been weening my tank off of the NoPoX. Next week I am switching to 0.1 ml of NoPoX every other day and I hope to be done with it by the end of February.

You will find your stride with the tank, so try not to get too discouraged. This can be fixed.

Thanks so much, I guess I feel better knowing I'm not alone [emoji39]

I'll test my water and if it's still the same.
I think I'm going to try a 30% water change this weekend, and after that try to turn over my tank volume in water changes and see if that helps [emoji1696]

 

[Brew12]

I’d wager it’s got some phosphate block issue. That’s why it’s not processing the no3.

Agree this could be part of the problem.

What does that mean ? Like having low phosphates will inhibit bacteria. From converting no3 to nitrogen gas ?

PO4 is a basic building block for life. Everything in your tank needs at least a little of it. For instance, we carbon dose to cause bacteria to rapidly reproduce. The energy they need to reproduce consumes nitrate. But, their cell structures also need phosphate. No phosphate means no new cell growth, which means carbon dosing won't work so nitrates stay high.

This idea is backed up by the possible dinoflagellates in your sump. Some dino's require much lower levels of phosphate than other organisms and can obtain what they need in other ways.