High pH alkalinity additives and detritus accumulation

[Dan Reef]

This topic is not intended to discuss Fauna Marin and bolus dosing but rather to discuss pH additives and detritus accumulation. I thought this discussion worth to be separated from that thread.

The reason I'm intrigued, is that my tanks, where I always opted for high pH additives, has lot of detritus accumulation in the sand and sump.

However, my quarentine tanks, where I don't add any alkalinity additives, is very clean. Clean = 0 detritus accumulation.

Not to lose focus, my interest is not to debate if detritus is harmful, beneficial or neutral.

The questions that has risen from what I read in the bolus dosing thread was:

1) I wonder if someone has enough evidence that the use of sodium bicarbonate or All for Reef results in less detritus accumulation compared to sodium carbonate, kalkwasser or other high pH additives?

2) The common increase in kH consumption by using higher pH additives maybe not all be related to faster coral growth but rather related to more precipitation/ detritus accumulation?

3) Is there a difference in precipitation quantity by adding high pH additives in low pH vs high pH tanks?

 

[ReneReef]

Before heading into a discussion I have some questions regarding your introduction.

Do your quarantine tanks have a similar bioload and feeding regime to your display tanks?

Do you consider detritus and precipitate to be the same? Of not, what do you consider to be the difference?

What in your view is or can be sources of detritus?

 

[Miami Reef]

Higher pH and alkalinity will lead to more abiotic precipitation; it is not detritus.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For others interested in reading the original discussion, it starts here:

Bolus dosing

Not many tanks will get to 3 dkh per day? I think you will with your setup, it's amazing. Mine is at 2DKH and I only have half the wattage per square foot you have. I dose 40% of my Alk in kalk though so perhaps I have an unfair advantage, dunno.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This topic is not intended to discuss Fauna Marin and bolus dosing but rather to discuss pH additives and detritus accumulation. I thought this discussion worth to be separated from that thread.

The reason I'm intrigued, is that my tanks, where I always opted for high pH additives, has lot of detritus accumulation in the sand and sump.

However, my quarentine tanks, where I don't add any alkalinity additives, is very clean. Clean = 0 detritus accumulation.

Not to lose focus, my interest is not to debate if detritus is harmful, beneficial or neutral.

The questions that has risen from what I read in the bolus dosing thread was:

1) I wonder if someone has enough evidence that the use of sodium bicarbonate or All for Reef results in less detritus accumulation compared to sodium carbonate, kalkwasser or other high pH additives?

2) The common increase in kH consumption by using higher pH additives maybe not all be related to faster coral growth but rather related to more precipitation/ detritus accumulation?

3) Is there a difference in precipitation quantity by adding high pH additives in low pH vs high pH tanks?

Aside from the detritus suggestions, which I don’t think is the same as precipitating calcium carbonate, I can address some of these questions.

Higher pH encourages precipitation of calcium carbonate. However it gets high, more happens at higher pH.

Adding high pH additives may cause some local precipitation of calcium carbonate, and that effect seems likely to happen to a larger extent if the pH in the water starts higher.

Some of any alk and calcium additions will be going into abiotic precipitation in most any tank, and the higher the pH, the more gets consumed this way.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Sanjay Joshi was on ReefBum and at one point exclaimed "Why are you all so scared of detritus?" I really identified with that remark. I'm just not sure this ultra clean reefing trend is that beneficial.

 

[Garf]

Turkey baster at the ready.

 

[Dan Reef]

Before heading into a discussion I have some questions regarding your introduction.

Do your quarantine tanks have a similar bioload and feeding regime to your display tanks?

Do you consider detritus and precipitate to be the same? Of not, what do you consider to be the difference?

What in your view is or can be sources of detritus?

Thanks for your questions, it helped me to detail the objective of this discussion further. I'm not comparing tanks, I'm just curious one has so much detritus and the other has 0.

I don't consider detritus and precipitation to be the same. However, the hypothesis raised by Fauna Marin is that precipitation binds with other compounds in the water forming detritus. So although not exactly the same, it may be connected someway.

Sanjay Joshi was on ReefBum and at one point exclaimed "Why are you all so scared of detritus?" I really identified with that remark. I'm just not sure this ultra clean reefing trend is that beneficial.

That was extensively debated in this forum, it's not the purpose of this discussion.

 

[Dan Reef]

Aside from the detritus suggestions, which I don’t think is the same as precipitating calcium carbonate, I can address some of these questions.

Higher pH encourages precipitation of calcium carbonate. However it gets high, more happens at higher pH.

Adding high pH additives may cause some local precipitation of calcium carbonate, and that effect seems likely to happen to a larger extent if the pH in the water starts higher.

Some of any alk and calcium additions will be going into abiotic precipitation in most any tank, and the higher the pH, the more gets consumed this way.

Let me add one more question and this may help to get to the point: will excessive calcium carbonate precipitate binds to other compounds present in the water and become detritus?

 

[IntrinsicReef]

That was extensively debated in this forum, it's not the purpose of this discussion

My bad. I wasn't part of that detritus/ precipitate discussion. And I didn't carefully read the rules of your thread here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let me add one more question and this may help to get to the point: will excessive calcium carbonate precipitate binds to other compounds present in the water and become detritus?

There certainly may be bits of abiotic calcium carbonate in detritus. But the main sign of abiotic precipitation is hardening sand, not excessive detritus.

FWIW, many reefers dose coral snow and consider particulates of calcium carbonate a benefit.

 

[rishma]

2) The common increase in kH consumption by using higher pH additives maybe not all be related to faster coral growth but rather related to more precipitation/ detritus accumulation?

I observed an increase in alkalinity consumption associated with higher pH driven by aeration with outdoor air

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't consider detritus and precipitation to be the same. However, the hypothesis raised by Fauna Marin is that precipitation binds with other compounds in the water forming detritus.

While I have little reason to think the effect is significant, would you rather have those same organics remain in the water instead of being flocculated out?

 

[Awake2005]

what would a person do if they had say a ph of 7.6 and alkaline of 11.1 .... trying to get this under control, calcium and mag are about 20 above the max ppm , salinity 1.026 temp 77.6 phosphates 0.3 I dont know what to do to get the ph up without raising alk, not sure it is even possible.

 

[Jamie814]

what would a person do if they had say a ph of 7.6 and alkaline of 11.1

CO2 scrubber or outside air for skimmer and open windows near tank will raise pH without raising ALK
Depressed Ph is generally caused by high Co2 in the ambient air around the tank which is absorbed into the water lowering the waters pH.

 

[Awake2005]

CO2 scrubber or outside air for skimmer and open windows near tank will raise pH without raising ALK
Depressed Ph is generally caused by high Co2 in the ambient air around the tank which is absorbed into the water lowering the waters pH.

yea, I have a small problem with doing that atm, I have a Maxspect sk400 skimmer on a 120 gal tank with a 30 gallon sump and the skimmer does not want to work.... it is shooting micro bubbles out of the side of the skimmer for some reason, have been trying to troubleshoot that as well, I have 2 of these skimmers and both do it, I swapped them out and same result, water is very clean , I even overfed the fish hoping it would kick up but to no avail... any idea's?
Oh I do have a scrubber on it as well and changed absorbent out today

 

[hkinkade]

Understandably we are all focusing on the precipitation of Calcium Carbonate in high ph dosing. Perhaps we need to think more broadly and at the less obvious and likely poorly understood participation events during this high PH event. I'm not a chemist, just a couple quarters of chemistry in college, but I offer this as food for thought - what hypothesis could support recent claims about reduced detritus when dosing bicarbonates. Let's not focus on refuting said claims. Perhaps some of the minor elements may create some interesting impacts, what about iron, sulfur, phosphates . . . If the high ph event causes other chemical reactions or precipitates, perhaps these fuel detritus factories of bacteria, and other organisms . . .

I offer these thoughts to perhaps develop some hypothesis to support the claims of increased detritus using non-bicarbonate alkalinity dosing. Then maybe we could support or disprove some theories. Focusing on how this can't happen only rehashes what we know or think we know about these complex thoughts. I'm interested in what we don't know.

OK that's about as far as I can 'help' keep this great discussion alive. This year I will run an experiment setting up my tank to run on these interesting claims. That makes this hobby so wonderful.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I’d make a few comments, but most importantly, I have considered other options, and don’t think other viable explanations exist for observed particulates. We focussed on calcium carbonate because it is known to happen.

Organics will have pH-dependent solubility. Some will be more soluble and some less soluble at high pH. That might play a role if the effect is real.

 

[hkinkade]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I’d make a few comments, but most importantly, I have considered other options, and don’t think other viable explanations exist for observed particulates. We focussed on calcium carbonate because it is known to happen.

Organics will have pH-dependent solubility. Some will be more soluble and some less soluble at high pH. That might play a role if the effect is real.

Thanks Randy. Are there any suggestions how to test / capture any precipitate in a way we may be able to analyze the results, without of course impacting the process?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy. Are there any suggestions how to test / capture any precipitate in a way we may be able to analyze the results, without of course impacting the process?

the first, and most difficult aspect of such a test would be to have two nearly identical reef tank scenarios where the only difference was the pH of the alk additive used. Then one has to run it for a while to see if there really is a visual detritus difference.

If there is, then one can presumably collect it in a net and begin to analyze it.

Detecting calcium carbonate is fairly easy if it’s a significant part. It will bubble in acid, and dissolution will raise the calcium level in the acid.

I’m not sure if you have ever used a high pH alk additive, but one can see by eye the local precipitation when it hits the tank water of what I believe is initially magnesium hydroxide, and many folks can see solids settle out if they have not mixed it in fast enough. Magnesium hydroxide will redissolve, but the local high pH around it will spur calcium carbonate precipitation.