How copper works, and why it sometimes doesn't

Humblefish

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I wanted to write about copper treatment and clear up some of the misconceptions about using that chemical. First, the basics:
  • Copper only treats ich & velvet. It has not been proven useful for any other disease. Some mistakenly believe copper is a "cure all" for every disease encountered in this hobby and incorrectly use it to treat brook, flukes, bacterial infections, etc.
  • Copper provides no immediate relief to your sick fish. It has only been proven to target the theront (free swimming) stage and possibly the protomont. What this means is your fish has to wait for the trophonts to drop off, and then copper shields them from reinfection. So in essence, you are using copper to eradicate ich from the tank itself - not treat the fish directly. Hyposalinity and Chloroquine phosphate work in the same manner.
  • Copper must be maintained at therapeutic levels in order to be effective. Sub-therapeutic copper may zap some of the theronts, but a few will still get through and latch onto your fish. However, if the infestation is light you may never see symptoms. This is called "disease masking", and some LFS who claim to treat with copper are unwittingly passing along "lightly infested" fish with no obvious signs of disease. But once transferred into non-medicated water, symptoms soon become obvious, because there is no "shield" to slow down the next wave of free swimmers. The solution is to test your copper level each & every day to ensure it always remains at therapeutic levels. Don't half-treat and just rely on the instructions of the copper product you are using; fully treat and test the copper level yourself to ensure it is (and stays) where it is supposed to be. ;)
  • Anything porous can absorb copper, most notably rock & sand. It can also leach it back out into the water. This back & forth can make it difficult to maintain a stable copper level. It has the potential to drop your Cu below therapeutic or conversely leach it back out to raise the copper to dangerous levels. This is why you always want to treat with copper in a bare bottom, rockless QT; and avoid using it in a DT with rock & sand.
  • Copper does not remain in the water forever. It will eventually dissipate, as all chemicals do.
  • Activated carbon is only minimally effective at removing copper from the water. Products such as Cuprisorb or using a Poly Filter pad are much better options. :)
So why does exposure to copper sometimes cause side effects and even death to certain fish? The answer is a hard pill to swallow... Copper is a poison. It is not an actual medication. It only works because most fish are able to survive longer in it than the parasites. However, some fish have an adverse reaction to being in copper and these are what we call "copper sensitive" fish. Certain species are notorious for not handling copper well, mostly sharks, rays and other scaleless fish. But sometimes it must be dealt with on an individual basis... one Flame Angel does fine in copper, while another wastes away in it. No rhyme or reason. :rolleyes:

Below are some steps you can take to ease your fish into copper and notice signs of copper intolerance before it becomes fatal:
  • Unless faced with an emergency situation (like velvet), ease your fish into copper treatment. Take 4-5 days to ramp it up to therapeutic levels instead of the 24-48 hour time frame in the "directions" found on most bottles of copper. :mad:
  • While ramping it up, watch closely for signs of copper intolerance. These symptoms include: lethargy, heavy breathing and appetite suppression. If a fish stops eating entirely, stop raising the copper until he resumes. If he doesn't resume after a couple of days, start doing water changes to lower the copper concentration until the fish eats again.
  • You can resume raising the Cu a day or two after the fish has some good meals inside his belly; BUT if the fish stops eating a second time after raising the copper you will know you have encountered a "copper sensitive" fish, and an alternative treatment should be used on him instead.
IME; it is rare for a fish to just up & die whilst in copper (unless it is already diseased). There are always warning signs if you just go slow with raising it and watch out for signs of copper intolerance. Some folks don't want to change direction when treating with copper, because that can mean separating the fish from those doing well in copper, another QT, and other PITA stuff. :p But just like trying to force a square peg in a round hole... you can't force a fish to "make it through copper" if his body just can't tolerate being in it.
 
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Humblefish

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chicago

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ok.. so help me out here.. I was doing a hypo/ copper QT.. all was good until yesterday or so. two issues. first here is the QT Set up. 55 gallon tank at 1.010 and cupermine at .25 for 21 days. Over past 24 hours. small goldflake is not eating and today.. started the heavy breathing and swimming straight up verticle. wondering if organ failure.. Yesterday I did a 50 percent water change keeping the Salinity at same level. also in the tank are three small purple tangs, pair of multi bars and personifer ... all doing ok and eating and picking at sides of tank for food. no signs of outward ick. no signs of flukes. all fish have been in this qt for at least 21 days . goldflake was in for 35 days..

I am thinking... one or two or combo. side effect and organ failure due to hypo or copper or both.?

I am noticing also the personifer is hanging out in the airstone bubble stream.. but I do not see any signs of ick..

I am considering a larger water change again. and doing prazi or General cure
 

chicago

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here is a pic of the personifer hanging out in the bubbles... flukes or ick or just liking the bubbles?

personifer bubbles.jpg
 

rlman41299

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from my understanding you can not do both hypo and copper together. Either do copper or hypo.
 

chicago

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according to seachem.. you can do both.. but need to keep copper levels at .25 not .50
none of the fish are doing any scratching .. forgot to mention that ..
 

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+1 Great write up. I also believe people have a tendency to think copper is a "cure". It is just part of an overall solution. (Pun semi intended)

Back to the original OP. Another common sign I have seen for copper toxicity is fish starting to "lose their balance" or in inability to maintain proper swimming position. This might present as sideways loop-de-loos or twirling. At this stage removing the fish from the copper entirely is the best solution, IMO, if that is an option. Generally once this symptom is noted, if left unchecked, fish death is almost 100%.
If fish are removed from copper treatment, general quarantine needs to be started over.
 

chicago

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interesting.. as the goldflake I have in QT is doing exactly that. he is just twirling -spinning like near the surface with heavy breathing.. this is 24 hours after large water change removing almost all traces of copper. interesting if remove of copper results in him surviving. rest of fish in QT eating flake
 
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Kyl

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I know about signs of copper intolerance / toxicity, but if you do remove a sensitive fish like a wrasse from copper that is displaying the symptoms (major lethargy / awkward swimming / heavy breathing), how fast would they show signs of recovery?

My social wrasse has been showing progressively worse after a week at therapeutic coppersafe levels. It spent a week prior to copper introduction eating well and very active, and during the ramp up in dosage over three days. This morning it was laying sideways in the corner of the tank, but would start zipping around in a ~ 20 second frenzy if another fish nudged it. I've moved it into a fresh 10 gallon tank and after about 30 minutes it started to stop being so lethargic and actually swimming / hovering in spot.

Is the reversal of behavior due to toxicity really that pronounced, so quickly?
 
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Humblefish

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I know about signs of copper intolerance / toxicity, but if you do remove a sensitive fish like a wrasse from copper that is displaying the symptoms (major lethargy / awkward swimming / heavy breathing), how fast would they show signs of recovery?

My social wrasse has been showing progressively worse after a week at therapeutic coppersafe levels. It spent a week prior to copper introduction eating well and very active, and during the ramp up in dosage over three days. This morning it was laying sideways in the corner of the tank, but would start zipping around in a ~ 20 second frenzy if another fish nudged it. I've moved it into a fresh 10 gallon tank and after about 30 minutes it started to stop being so lethargic and actually swimming / hovering in spot.

Is the reversal of behavior due to toxicity really that pronounced, so quickly?

This is difficult to answer because each fish is unique, so their tolerance to copper will all be different. Also, it matters how long the fish was in copper, what type, at what level, etc. prior to removal. I've seen fish bounce back in a matter of minutes, to it taking a couple of days, to nothing helped and the fish ultimately perished. :confused:
 

4FordFamily

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I would say I too have witnessed fish intolerant of copper swimming erratically -- I've never 100% attributed this to copper though because I've seen this behavior in newer fish in the absence of copper-- although it does seem more common in high concentrations of copper. I would say that other symptoms should materialize before this ever occurs if you observe, I would say at that point it's probably too late.

Perhaps worth noting.
 

Kyl

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Thanks guys. Obviously I can't blame the copper 100%, but this is the first fish I've had so far that did not act well while in it. That API kit seems to be not so great, visibly it looks between 1.5 and 2. I've seen the hatch kit mentioned, wonder if our waterworks distributor at work would be able to source that like they can with the chlorine kits..

The rest of the fish are still doing great at least, thanks again @Humblefish for your write-ups!
 
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Humblefish

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Thanks guys. Obviously I can't blame the copper 100%, but this is the first fish I've had so far that did not act well while in it. That API kit seems to be not so great, visibly it looks between 1.5 and 2. I've seen the hatch kit mentioned, wonder if our waterworks distributor at work would be able to source that like they can with the chlorine kits..

This test kit has been getting pretty good reviews on here: https://www.chemetrics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=392
 

Kyl

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Checked into that kit, doesn't appear to be easily available in Canadaland. The Hatch kit however is, tho pricey.. still debating it.

Wrasse is back to acting like it was pre-copper, minus all the scratching. Guess I know the signs to remove someone asap now and won't let it get to that point in the future. For once all these tanks came in handy!
 

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@Humblefish - what might you suggest in the event you think you’ve encountered a copper sensitive fish but you’re also 97% sure you’re taking on Velvet? Short of getting your hands on Rx CP that is known to be effective is there anything else that can be done without the fish getting re-infected in a non medicated tank?
 

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