how fast trophonts die in CP

[reef_1]

When fish is moved into the hospital tank (HT) with chloroquine phosphate (CP) it still has trophonts.

As far as I read CP doesn't really affect protomont stage, so those trophonts which fell down can encyst.

Then these tomonts can release theronts any time in the next 45/76 whatever days.

Theront release can also happen just before I net out the fish from the HT and I can take some water with freshly released theronts with the water drops on the net.

The question is this can this situation happen and then ich could come back?

OR

Does CP instantly renders theronts unable to infect fish, within moments, so by the time theront would get to the net its already unable to carry over ich? Or does it have a short window when I can get unlucky, seconds, minutes etc?

 

[MnFish1]

When fish is moved into the HT with CP it still has trophonts.

As far as I read CP doesn't really affect protomont stage, so those trophonts which fell down can encyst.

Then these tomonts can release trophonts any time in the next 45/76 whatever days.

Trophont release can also happen just before I net out the fish from the HT and I can take some water with freshly released trophonts with the water drops on the net.

The question is this can this situation happen and then ich could come back?

OR

Does CP instantly renders trophonts unable to infect fish, within moments, so by the time trophont would get to the net its already unable to carry over ich? Or does it have a short window when I can get unlucky, seconds, minutes etc?

What do you mean by 'HT' (I assume hospital tank). What do you mean by 'CP'. (Could be chloroquine PO4 or Copper power. ? Not trying to be rude - but - its totally unclear what your question is?

 

[reef_1]

What do you mean by 'HT' (I assume hospital tank). What do you mean by 'CP'. (Could be chloroquine PO4 or Copper power. ? Not trying to be rude - but - its totally unclear what your question is?

Yes HT = hopsital tank, CP = chloroquine phosphate, sorry I edited opening post.

As far as I understand chloroquine (or copper) does not really affect protomont stage before they encyst in the HT so throphont release can still happen in the hospital tank for 76 or whatever days.

My question is that once those throphonts are released in the HT for how long they are able to infect fish, how fast chloroquine works on them? Instantly? Seconds? Minutes?

 

[threebuoys]

The information I've read suggests the theront (free swimming) stage of cryptocaryon is the only one vulnerable to treatment while the fish is present.

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Copper is the standard recommended for treatment.

Chloroquine Phosphate can also be used but it too requires several weeks to be effective.

Trophonts are embedded in the skin of fish and are not treatable directly. When they fall off of the fish to enter the protomont stage they are not vulnerable to copper. Methods to kill the protomont or tomont stages would also be lethal to the fish.

 

[MnFish1]

Agree with @threebuoys - I do not think there is a difference in timing - vis a vis using Chloroquine vs copper.

 

[reef_1]

The information I've read suggests the theront (free swimming) stage of cryptocaryon is the only one vulnerable to treatment while the fish is present.

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Copper is the standard recommended for treatment.

Chloroquine Phosphate can also be used but it too requires several weeks to be effective.

Trophonts are embedded in the skin of fish and are not treatable directly. When they fall off of the fish to enter the protomont stage they are not vulnerable to copper. Methods to kill the protomont or tomont stages would also be lethal to the fish.

Yes, exactly. But that means trophonts falling off the fish in the HT will encyst in HT and release theronts sometimes in the next 76 days.

My question is how fast these freshly released theronts in the HT with copper/CP will lose their ability to infect fish.
Are they "born" unable to infect fish? Moments? Seconds? Minutes? Hours?

Edit: theronts I meant in places, I edited

 

[threebuoys]

If you read the literature, you will see the trophont or the subsequent stages of protomont and tomont are not vulnerable to copper or Chloroquine phosphate.

These stages as discussed in the literature can last days or even weeks depending on a number of variables. Hence the recommendation to QT for 30 days to insure all parasites reach the theront stage and are eventually killed.

 

[reef_1]

to insure all parasites reach the theront stage and are eventually killed.

Yes. But how fast a freshly hatched theront in CP is killed/rendered unable to infect?

 

[threebuoys]

That's why the copper is maintained at theraputic levels for the full 30 days. Whether it is seconds, micro-seconds, or minutes, they don't all hatch at the same time, and they can take varying time to find a host, but if copper is present at sufficient levels in the water throughout, the theronts cannot infect the fish.

edit: the same is true for exposure to chlorquine phosphate.

 

[reef_1]

That's why the copper is maintained at theraputic levels for the full 30 days. Whether it is seconds, micro-seconds, or minutes, they don't all hatch at the same time, and they can take varying time to find a host, but if copper is present at sufficient levels in the water throughout, the theronts cannot infect the fish.

edit: the same is true for exposure to chlorquine phosphate.

It should matter if it minutes isn't that, because if its 2 minutes for example, then in theory if I am unlucky enough and net out the fish just 20 seconds after theronts are released in the HT, I could carry over a theront to the medication free water of the observation tank BEFORE it loses its ability to infect a fish.

Thats why I am asking about the time cause if its lets say 2 minutes as in the example, maybe I can change my protocol to keep the fish for 5 minutes in a fish bag still in CP water until all theronts die (new cannot be born as I surely dont have cysts in the bag) to eliminate even this minimal risk.

Or if I know its an instant or the theronts are released as already unable to infect a fish then I dont need to think about this at all.

 

[threebuoys]

As I said, they do not all release at the same time. Your are looking for consistency that does not exist. Read the scientific document I linked. That's the best you are going to get.

Once the threonts are all dead, and no trophonts, protomonts or tomonts are present, the fish cannot be reinfected. Again, 30 days for either copper or chloroquine. No magic here.

 

[reef_1]

As I said, they do not all release at the same time. Your are looking for consistency that does not exist. Read the scientific document I linked. That's the best you are going to get.

Once the threonts are all dead, and no trophonts, protomonts or tomonts are present, the fish cannot be reinfected. Again, 30 days for either copper or chloroquine. No magic here.

I dont understand whats not clear in my question. I read that study, it doesnt answer my question.

Fish with trophonts get into HT.

In theory CP or copper doesnt affect trophont, protomont and tomont stage, so they encyst, get to the tomont stage which can last 76 days.

And then they release theronts into the HT.

Are these theronts able to infect fish at the time of release?

If yes, do they lose their ability to infect/die instantly upon release in CP/copper water? In 10 seconds? 1 minutes?

Sorry of I am not clear enough.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes. But how fast a freshly hatched theront in CP is killed/rendered unable to infect?

I know what you are asking, but I don’t have any good data for you…..sorry!

I’d say 18 to 24 hours or so, but that is a wild guess. I think the issue is; if the theront reaches a fish and develops into a trophont, the medication then won’t be able to kill it.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

I dont understand whats not clear in my question. I read that study, it doesnt answer my question.

Fish with trophonts get into HT.

In theory CP or copper doesnt affect trophont, protomont and tomont stage, so they encyst, get to the tomont stage which can last 76 days.

And then they release theronts into the HT.

Are these theronts able to infect fish at the time of release?

If yes, do they lose their ability to infect/die instantly upon release in CP/copper water? In 10 seconds? 1 minutes?

Sorry of I am not clear enough.

the Theront's are killed quite quickly once free-swimming. It's a moot point - since they all 'hatch' at different times. Thus the length of QT. And - according to the literature - those that are not killed - nearly instantly - are much less infectious. But - Why are you asking?

You seem to be mixing 2 different issues 1) - the fallow period - (76 days) where there are no fish - and the time fish are being treated (which is usually 30 days)? But - yes - the general opinion is that once they 'hatch' they are killed in the copper/Chloroquine water. Hope this helps

PS - if there were a couple the did survive - and were not killed - it would not be in numbers that would damage/hurt the fish. I think this is the same as what @Jay Hemdal was suggesting

 

[reef_1]

I know what you are asking, but I don’t have any good data for you…..sorry!

I’d say 18 to 24 hours or so, but that is a wild guess. I think the issue is; if the theront reaches a fish and develops into a trophont, the medication then won’t be able to kill it.

Jay

I think that 18-24 hours is not in medicated water, thats the normal survival time for theronts without fish host.

My question is that in medicated water when the encysted tomonts in hospital tank releasing theronts, how fast these theronts die/lose their ability to infect.

Yhey must do this much faster then 18 hours, otherwise they would regularly reinfect in HT I guess.

 

[reef_1]

Thats the closest I got to my answer so far (from Fish Diseases and Disorders Noga & Levy 2006):

"Chloroquine has no effect on tormont division, but kills dinospores immediately upon their excystment."

But this is about velvet and I cannot find anything about the original source of observation from this C.Bower mentioned in the attached chapter.

I would still be interested what is the actual mechanism and how fast is "immediately", cuz when I read the actual mechanism about how it kills malaria (there are much more material about that) or how quinins work in general doesnt sound like an instant thing to me.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I think that 18-24 hours is not in medicated water, thats the normal survival time for theronts without fish host.

My question is that in medicated water when the encysted tomonts in hospital tank releasing theronts, how fast these theronts die/lose their ability to infect.

Yhey must do this much faster then 18 hours, otherwise they would regularly reinfect in HT I guess.

As I said, I don't have good numbers for you. The 18-24 hour number is therefore conservative, but it does reflect how long it takes for TTM to work. Amine based copper products take up to five days to begin clearing trophonts through attrition and lack of recruitment.

I looked up a copy of Peter Burgess's thesis from 1992. He concludes: "No theronts were viable after 18 hours". So that bears out my conservative estimate.

He has one table where he used Oomed at "high, medium and low" doses.

He states: "Medium and low doses of Oomed failed to destroy all theronts during the 2 h exposure period."
Oomed was a quinine/aminoacridine product that I haven't used.

So - your answer is probably somewhere between 2 and 18 hours (grin).


Jay

 

[reef_1]

As I said, I don't have good numbers for you. The 18-24 hour number is therefore conservative, but it does reflect how long it takes for TTM to work. Amine based copper products take up to five days to begin clearing trophonts through attrition and lack of recruitment.

I looked up a copy of Peter Burgess's thesis from 1992. He concludes: "No theronts were viable after 18 hours". So that bears out my conservative estimate.

He has one table where he used Oomed at "high, medium and low" doses.

He states: "Medium and low doses of Oomed failed to destroy all theronts during the 2 h exposure period."
Oomed was a quinine/aminoacridine product that I haven't used.

So - your answer is probably somewhere between 2 and 18 hours (grin).


Jay

Interesting if copper is this slow, like theronts have hours, then how we dont see reinfection of fish in hospital tank with copper?

I would think in a small HT some from many would surely find a fish host in hours!?

 

[MnFish1]

Interesting if copper is this slow, like theronts have hours, then how we dont see reinfection of fish in hospital tank with copper?

I would think in a small HT some from many would surely find a fish host in hours!?

1. At least according to one site and an article from Seachem, copper can affect the protomonts as well as Theronts.
2. it's my understanding - that (just like every medication) - different strains of CI may have different speeds at which they are killed completely by copper - thus the varied times stated by @Jay Hemdal
3. It's also my understanding that copper or Chloroquine rapidly 'damages' the Theront even if not killed its infectiousness becomes much less quite quickly.

I have read up quite considerably on this subject - and had a list of references (which I cannot find) - but this is my synthesis of my reading over the years.

 

[reef_1]

1. At least according to one site and an article from Seachem, copper can affect the protomonts as well as Theronts.
2. it's my understanding - that (just like every medication) - different strains of CI may have different speeds at which they are killed completely by copper - thus the varied times stated by @Jay Hemdal
3. It's also my understanding that copper or Chloroquine rapidly 'damages' the Theront even if not killed its infectiousness becomes much less quite quickly.

I have read up quite considerably on this subject - and had a list of references (which I cannot find) - but this is my synthesis of my reading over the years.

Yes, thats what I asked for. But do we know how fast they are losing their abilities to infect. 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour? etc.

It cannot be too much isnt that otherwise they would frequently reinfect in HT.

I tried to find some studies about chloroquine and ich, velvet, quinins and malaria in general.

My impression is that in better researched parasites prolonged exposure might affect even encysted or even dormant stages or theront development while encysted. Ofc those are different parasites with sometimes chloroquine affecting them in a different way as far as I understand.

I didn't find an actual experiment which would specifically test this for ich, which is interesting cause tomont collection for research doesn't look that hard, there seems to be ttm like methods out there for that.

Theronts dieing/losing their ability to infect "instantly" upon release could actually be bad theront development in the encysted stage, maybe due to protomont or tomont being affected, so unviable theronts could be released, which can be mistaken with instant loss of ability to infect.

Or maybe there are studies about this out there, I just didnt spend enough time looking for them. If you ever find your links to studies share them pls