How much aggression is normal?

[siniang]

I have kept numerous huma triggers over the years and they all grew faster than that article states. Why is that? Are there some populations that grow substantially faster than others and I just so happen to get them from only that source? Or is it that a properly cared for fish has a faster growth rate than one that is more confined in one way or another?

You kinda hint on it, but yes, food is a very limiting resource in the wild for ANY animal while most captive animals are overfed (even if we think they aren't). That of course influences growth greatly.

Just because growth rates differ between the wild and in captivity doesn't mean they're negatively impacted (I'm not saying they're not, either, just looking at it from my biologist's point of view). Animals in captivity get much older than in the wild, for example. You simply can't compare wild and captive situations 1:1 and draw conclusions.

 

[Reefaddict1979]

If you're referring to me, I can just keep reiterating that the humu will move into a bigger tank, eventually. I also consulted with my friend - who actually studies/researches humus for a living - and she says I'm fine. This is not to defend bad husbandry or even animal cruelty. I understand the limitations and longterm requirements and will accommodate. But, it is also my personal observation that with all topics pet keeping there are very many, very different, at times very emotional, opinions out there...not always based in facts (which is NOT to say that any of the statements here in the thread, especially from the experienced fish keepers, are false. I wouldn't dare).

Thank you, actually for the discussion. It was interesting to read and I learnt a lot regarding husbandry.

As in terms of the original question of this thread, both my humu and blenny seem fine at 3 months in. The humu has grown some, but it keeps really hard for me to actually judge his size with the distortion of the glass and water etc. My friend had a rectangle trigger and her's hasn't grown heeps in one year, definitely not 2". Maybe, one also shouldn't forget that even in the wild growth rates are averages and are ALWAYS subject to influences, including intrinsic (genes) and extrinsic (food, territorial rivalry, ...) limitations.

What I also keep wondering is, whether all those recommendations for larger tanks are because usually people keep more than 1 fish and they want their trigger be part of a larger reef tank with a variety of other fish and potentially inverts...well, yeah of course you need a large tank.

Wasn’t talking about you. Keeping 2 fish in a 40 breeder isn’t that bad especially if it’s in the short term. (Although it’s been 3 months and huma is still In tank )

I have kept baby fish , that will grow big in small tanks like your before and probably will again. When young you are able to get away with it especially if tank is lightly stocked. But imo only over time maybe a year maybe 18 months. There will be a time where that huma no longer wants to share that tank with any other fish. Triggers can become very territorial That’s all.

Different fish and more aggressive.
But I had 3 clown triggers.
One wouldn’t let me put any other fish in my 225. I could barely put my hand it without it going after me.

Other 2 where fine as long as the other fish where in there first.

So every fish also have different personality’s.

 

[eatbreakfast]

if you do your research a humu trigger should get 14 to 18 months in that size tank. I also do a 25% water change every week and feed the exact same amount everyday minus vacations. and while I was out of town for a week and my ac did die while I was gone 0ver the week and boiled my tank it was irresponsible of me to not test water. but if you do your research on genus you will find many fascinating studies on the humu triggers. in the wild they gain an inch as the average out of about 300 specimens in one study.

That study was done in subtropical conditions. The authors noted in that paper that water temperature is one of the biggest factors in their growth, with them growing faster in warmer water.

The specimens collected for aquariums are collected from tropical waters and are kept at tropical temps, so their groth should be commensurate.

You kinda hint on it, but yes, food is a very limiting resource in the wild for ANY animal while most captive animals are overfed (even if we think they aren't). That of course influences growth greatly.

Just because growth rates differ between the wild and in captivity doesn't mean they're negatively impacted (I'm not saying they're not, either, just looking at it from my biologist's point of view). Animals in captivity get much older than in the wild, for example. You simply can't compare wild and captive situations 1:1 and draw conclusions.

These factors should contribute to accelerated growth, due to availability of food and lack of rivals or predators. If that is not the case then something is stunting the growth.

 

[colin obrien]

Hmmm. Go figure someone selling fish making it seem that a lg fish will be appropriate in undersized tank.

I have kept numerous huma triggers over the years and they all grew faster than that article states. Why is that? Are there some populations that grow substantially faster than others and I just so happen to get them from only that source? Or is it that a properly cared for fish has a faster growth rate than one that is more confined in one way or another?

If you look at humas collected in the wild there is a large degree of seasonality as it pertains to size. As the season progresses so do the sizes of specimens offered. Why is it that wild specimens are growing exponentially faster than captive counterparts? 2 main factors, first, more feeding opportunities, and 2nd, cleaner water. Oftentimes, triggers are kept in a Fish Only system with other predators. These fish produce a lot of waste which greatly affects water quality. This slows or stunts their growth rate. However, when husbandry more closely mimics wild conditions their growth accelerates.

If their captive growth rate does not closely compare to their wild growth rate then that means something has stunted their growth. Stunted growth is a sign that something is wrong.

husbandry shouldn't be my problem. that fish wouldn't be alive to see 7 years if that was a problem along with a powder blue tang that requires pristine water quality. im just gonna say if you really want to find out there is plenty of studies out there on this topic. 2'' may be absolutely possible but IMO putting on weight to a fish as fast as you can is not necessarily the only good option. while the fish look absolutely beautiful and healthy, fish that eat a little less but much more consistently. overtime as the fish slowly but surly grows, the fish will grow not only to the same size eventually. the fish will have a much stronger immune system and live longer. im at 7 years with my humu at a consistent growth of .5" every year that I have owned it. the goal is 20 years as a full grown adult! and what I meant by "a little less but more consistently" is to maintain the same amount of food in its stomach through out the day. this mimics as best I can to their natural diet and feeding patturns with a larger feeding first thing in the morning and a larger feeding at night time, this helps make up for when the fish is not feeding at night. and as the fish grows you feed more and more to maintain the balance. I think this is the best way to keep any aquarium fish. while growth is slower, its a much healthier, stable, longer life for a humu trigger. I can provide pretty interesting read on this topic if you would like. and im sure youre realizing that my methods are not traditional, they work for me at least. but im sorry as coming off as a know it all when I still consider myself new to this hobby. I apologize for that I was just excited about joining and finally sharing what iv learned over this journey. guess I came off a little pushy lol but I hope we can share our findings and what we've learned about this amazing fish

 

[lion king]

the tank size isn't an issue, humu triggers grow VERY slowly at maybe a 1/4" every year and it slows down as they get bigger. it will take 15 20 years before the trigger needs a larger home. but the trigger is fine, very tough fish its just tolerating the blenny but if the trigger wanted to it could kill the blenny in less than 30 seconds

I was really trying to stay out of this, but for the sake of the other triggers out there; stop putting triggers in a 40b. If it's a grow out tank, and you are getting baby triggers, I mean 1-1.5", stop it. And if it is a grow out tank, have a plan. Not just your plan to get a bigger tank, because that doesn't always happen. Like a back up plan, resources for a new home. It is disgusting that a lfs and online retailers. like Blue Zoo, will recommend a 50g for some triggers. It's more than size that demands a larger tank for triggers, like aggression. Even starting at an inch a humu will need a bigger home in 2-3 years max, at 3" they should be in nothing smaller than a 125g. I do agree that a humu could live many many years in a 125g; but they will get to 5-6" in 10 years times, and believe me at that size they are a different animal.
The info on the internet is a double edged sword, anyone who really cares will do diligence and sift through the bs. Trying to justify a 40b as a long term home for any trigger, is just plain bs.

 

[siniang]

But other than the obvious, size/gallon and and aggression/territoriality, why do triggers need that much space? Especially in single-species tanks? And can we really generalize like that? Just from reading here on the forums, even among species there are so many differences in behavior.

For example, I've seen rectangle triggers being claimed as swimmers. I've seen pretty active swimmers myself already. I've seen calmer ones, too. Both in captivity (with plenty space) and in the wild. My humu is more of a hoverer at the moment and it's not due to lack of space.

Sometimes, as I've mentioned, it also comes down a little bit to "believe". You know, like whether or not cats should be able to go outdoors.

Really, please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm genuinely trying to understand. And I take all what you post to mind and heart.

These factors should contribute to accelerated growth, due to availability of food and lack of rivals or predators. If that is not the case then something is stunting the growth.

Well, of course. But I keep wondering, is it actually favorable to have them grow at faster rates than in the wild? Do we really want to give them this greater-than-life enviroment, those perfect conditions, which in no way are actual natural? Why would we want it? What do we gain from it? Other from potential concerns of organ problems, what other disadvantages would there be with stunted growth?

Again, not trying to fight, but asking a genuine question.

 

[lion king]

It is about territory and aggression. Many triggers are hoverers even in larger tanks, I've had undulate and clowns keeping a rather small rock area as their territory. The problem is nothing can even swim in front of their rocks, without vicious attacks. Triggers love to rumble, I could hear mine rattling around behind the rocks all the time, always scratched up. It's all about the numbers, one perfect gentleman to 100 hannibal lecters. When they rage, they are relentless, vicious. You can easily end up with a few triggers hovering around their territories and constant battles until finally one day it gets out of hand. A larger tank and limited stocking can prove to be not only the best solution, but a fun tank.

I recently lost a few fish to velvet including a clown and blueline I raised from pups. My 180g now has a 5" Niger I raised from a pup and a 2' jeweled eel I raised from pup. Even as the only open swimming fish in a 180g, the Niger hovers and keeps a rock structure as his home. The jeweled cruises the rocks at the substrate and never comes after the Niger. But the Niger cant help himself, he seeks out the eel to rumble, the Niger is always scraped up with torn fins and such. I think the jeweled will always win this battle. I want to add another trigger so the Niger can have someone to rumble and pal around with, Iknow it sounds silly to most, for me 2 triggers over 5" and a full grown jeweled eel is a full tank for me. I never keep more than 5 aggressive fish in my 180g.

 

[colin obrien]

I was really trying to stay out of this, but for the sake of the other triggers out there; stop putting triggers in a 40b. If it's a grow out tank, and you are getting baby triggers, I mean 1-1.5", stop it. And if it is a grow out tank, have a plan. Not just your plan to get a bigger tank, because that doesn't always happen. Like a back up plan, resources for a new home. It is disgusting that a lfs and online retailers. like Blue Zoo, will recommend a 50g for some triggers. It's more than size that demands a larger tank for triggers, like aggression. Even starting at an inch a humu will need a bigger home in 2-3 years max, at 3" they should be in nothing smaller than a 125g. I do agree that a humu could live many many years in a 125g; but they will get to 5-6" in 10 years times, and believe me at that size they are a different animal.
The info on the internet is a double edged sword, anyone who really cares will do diligence and sift through the crap. Trying to justify a 40b as a long term home for any trigger, is just plain crap.

ive kept a 7' bursa trigger in a 90 gallon for 4 years with clown fish a yellow tang and a foxface and had no problems what so ever. the trigger thrived and is in a associates 75g now(still alive and growing!). that was two years ago when it was in the 90g. I literally see nothing wrong with that. I do not think a 40g is a good long term for any trigger fish. but you can keep it healthy for a few years in a 40g breeder. that's why the guy that made this post I think has nothing to worry about for a long time. how ever the fish will need to be entertained with plenty of spaces to swim through and crevices to call its own with plenty of flow. but anyway that bursa trigger has 6 years in a tank that you would claim to be a disaster to keep in. if proper decisions are made you can have a thriving community tank for the long run with any of the humu triggers in a 75g with proper filtration. I don't know what else to tell you iv kept many trigger fish in many tanks and had nothing but success except when a snowflake eel ate a baby clown trigger in my first year of aquarium keeping. idk if you just have the need to justify all the extra money you thought you had to spend to keep these fish or what. im just going to share what I have had success with and you can just ignore me if you'd like

 

[eatbreakfast]

The growth rates I am describing are not some accelerated greayer than natural growth rates, they are what should be expected. If those rates are slowed downthan something is wrong.

Feeding smaller more frequent meals vs larger meals 1x a day more closely mimics how they eat in the wild. The more we mimic their natural conditions, the more their growth rates should match their wild counterparts, their growth rate shouldn't be halved or less.

A fish whose growth has been stunted, in most cases does not catch up to it's peers. Whatever the cause for the stunted growth also affects the longevity of the fish. Fish that have an unnaturally slower growth rate also have impaired immune systems, a shorter life spans.

Also, Tetradonts are known for their intelligence and personality. Small tanks don't provide the stimulation they need other. Many public aquariums offer 'enrichment' activities and props for Tetradonts. Undersized tanks don't allow for this.

Sadly all too often people look for little iotas of evidence to support a decision they deep-down know they shouldn't be making.

 

[lion king]

I've seen smaller triggers in smaller tanks work for a limited time. The problem is eventually when they get larger it doesn't. It will be a rarity when they reach over 5-6" if you are keeping them in less than a 180 you wont encounter a serious issue. I can not begin to count the over 5" triggers that I have seen brought into the lfs, with stories of tank annilation.

Most people are only keeping these guys a couple of years when they are smaller, and a few will have good results. But if you are looking for a more successful end, keep them in a lightly stocked tank no smaller than a 180g. As much as people talk about keeping their fish 10 years plus, in the real world, this rarely happens.

Raising baby triggers are a much better bet than getting them from the ocean at a larger size. We can only talk statistics, there are always exceptions. I have always had triggers for 30 years, but I am lucky enough to have access to many very very large tanks, that I have re homed quite a few triggers over the years.

 

[lion king]

Something else to think of, many lfs if really not all today wont even take a large aggressive trigger turn in, they figure where the market. It better to petal smaller ones. So what do you think happens when a 2" humu turns into a 5" humu in a 90g, at the very least keeping all the other fish trapped to one side of the tank, likely much worse. I've seen it time and time again. So where do they go?

But yeah you could keep a humu in a 90 with just 2-3 other aggressive fish for a while, and for most it will be a few years and for some maybe longer. But the majority ends badly.

 

[colin obrien]

2 inches a year is not normal. but its cool ill just sit around and wait for something to go wrong, if it does ill move them to a 225g but I have a felling that what most people know are wrong about proper housing for these fish so it will probably never happen. the 7 humu I own are all docile and live in community tanks with healthy growth at a slow steady pace like it should be. some with other triggers and show behaviors showing me that they are quite fond of each other even but that probably has nothing to do with me becoming familiar with their personality's before I place them into a tank. some trigger fish are just more aggressive than others and will have better success in a larger tank with few tank mates or a lot of tank mates. no in between because with a lower stocked tank with a very aggressive trigger will provide a calming affect and also allow the fish to have its own space while with a heavily or "over"stocked tank the trigger will have so much stimuli that it will actually (I believe) cause the release of endorphins and reduce stress butt long as one can keep the water clean. I also believe that trigger fish aggression is a product of stress, from under feeding poor water quality feeling threatened and so forth. with a heavily stocked tank with monster filtration I have kept a humu trigger in a reef aquarium without it ever eating any shrimp coral or snails, I still have that trigger fish to this day. but in a fish only tank now because after a few years it out grew the 40g reef tank. I think its a matter of which trigger you chose based on personality. I watch it feed and its behaviors during feeding time, I watch it interact with other fish, and how it reacts to other fish being aggressive towards it and how it behaves when other fish enter where it rests and hides. I also believe that the most aggressive triggers belong in the ocean because aggression is caused by a deficiency of dopamine in both fish and humans. these fish can not achieve the proper levels of dopamine to remain the typical calm easy going humu trigger that we know. this is different for other trigger fish because of other neural transmitters that they are accustom to that cause them to be unstable in most aquariums. how ever the humu trigger will become very aggressive no mater what you do during matting. but in their natural habitat while I was doing research in the florida keys I would observe even the most aggressive trigger fish while diving like the queen trigger and gray trigger. I saw many and I never saw one to attack any fish or threaten any fish. I stayed my distance to not threaten the fish to avoid an attack. this caused me to believe that this species is a naturally calm fish only showing aggression to defend their territory when threatened or stressed. of course this would have to be a much larger study to confirm. so I have done my best to replicate these calming environments in my house and work place. I have had much success with trigger fish as them being my focus in all my fish tanks. I do think a very large aquarium is one way to go about this. but that size tank is not necessary to do it. you can tell me how sick my fish are and how it will never work but I also doubt you have ever tried it or at least the way I have. in my trigger fish tanks I set up a current like you would see in a jelly fish tank where the water almost rolls along the tank from across the top to across the bottom but at a much much faster flow rate. this provides an almost never ending pool effect and it works great for all my fish and it also helps with dead spots. but im done with this thread now. op I believe you will be fine for a while and over time you will see that you can easily have some success in that size tank with that size trigger. you should see about an inch of growth a year if a male, and about half an inch to 3/4'' a year if its a female. if you wish to keep this fish for the long run I suggest at least a 75g with a outstanding filtration system and live rock with many caves and places the trigger can weave in and out of the live rock. you need heavy filtration because the trigger needs to eat A LOT. also I suggest feeding freeze dried shrimp to help keep its teeth down but feed it with tweezers and hold the food under the water do not let the trigger eat from the surface as it might swallow a bubble and that is bad news. also as feeding goes is you ever see the triggers stomach or gut look pinched feed immediately as this means there is no food in its system and they need to be constantly digesting food and if they are not this can damage their organs. but all the work you have to put in is well worth it because it is a very rewarding fish to keep.

 

[eatbreakfast]

2 inches a year is not normal. but its cool ill just sit around and wait for something to go wrong,

The study YOU mentioned was done in subtropical temps and the authors state that warmer temperature accelerates growth.

with a heavily or "over"stocked tank the trigger will have so much stimuli that it will actually (I believe) cause the release of endorphins and reduce stress *** long as one can keep the water clean.

It doesn't release endorphins, just diffuses aggression as it provides more targets.

I also believe that trigger fish aggression is a product of stress, from under feeding poor water quality feeling threatened and so forth. with a heavily stocked tank with monster filtration I have kept a humu trigger in a reef aquarium without it ever eating any shrimp coral or snails, I still have that trigger fish to this day. but in a fish only tank now because after a few years it out grew the 40g reef tank.

Stress results in cortisol being produced, which is a known growth inhibitor. They should be growing faster, not slower as stressors are removed.

I think its a matter of which trigger you chose based on personality. I watch it feed and its behaviors during feeding time, I watch it interact with other fish, and how it reacts to other fish being aggressive towards it and how it behaves when other fish enter where it rests and hides.

I watch and observe the fish under my care as well.

I also believe that the most aggressive triggers belong in the ocean because aggression is caused by a deficiency of dopamine in both fish and humans. these fish can not achieve the proper levels of dopamine to remain the typical calm easy going humu trigger that we know. this is different for other trigger fish because of other neural transmitters that they are accustom to that cause them to be unstable in most aquariums. how ever the humu trigger will become very aggressive no mater what you do during matting.

How does dopamine levels in humans affect triggerfish behavior?

Can you provide any studies on triggerfish neural transmitters and how they differ from species to species?

...in their natural habitat while I was doing research in the florida keys I would observe even the most aggressive trigger fish while diving like the queen trigger and gray trigger. I saw many and I never saw one to attack any fish or threaten any fish. I stayed my distance to not threaten the fish to avoid an attack. this caused me to believe that this species is a naturally calm fish only showing aggression to defend their territory when threatened or stressed. of course this would have to be a much larger study to confirm.

You were aware of triggerfish aggression so stayed back not to agitate them. Don't you think that fish that share their environment full-time have adapted to not get attacked as well? That is much more likely why aggression wasn't observed.

..in my trigger fish tanks I set up a current like you would see in a jelly fish tank where the water almost rolls along the tank from across the top to across the bottom but at a much much faster flow rate. this provides an almost never ending pool effect and it works great for all my fish and it also helps with dead spots.

Or gyre effect. Flow goes along way to mitigate aggression and help filtration.

if you wish to keep this fish for the long run I suggest at least a 75g with a outstanding filtration system and live rock with many caves and places the trigger can weave in and out of the live rock. you need heavy filtration because the trigger needs to eat A LOT.

A 75g for the long run for a 10" but still have room for plenty of caves and overhangs?

also I suggest feeding freeze dried shrimp to help keep its teeth down but feed it with tweezers and hold the food under the water do not let the trigger eat from the surface as it might swallow a bubble and that is bad news.

Freeze dried food isn't hard enough to wear down their fused teeth. However, they will bite at rock to keep them down. And triggers are more than handling eating at the surface. It's puffers you are thinking of, and that is for inflatting at the surface, not feeding.

 

[lion king]

2 inches a year is not normal. but its cool ill just sit around and wait for something to go wrong, if it does ill move them to a 225g but I have a felling that what most people know are wrong about proper housing for these fish so it will probably never happen. the 7 humu I own are all docile and live in community tanks with healthy growth at a slow steady pace like it should be. some with other triggers and show behaviors showing me that they are quite fond of each other even but that probably has nothing to do with me becoming familiar with their personality's before I place them into a tank. some trigger fish are just more aggressive than others and will have better success in a larger tank with few tank mates or a lot of tank mates. no in between because with a lower stocked tank with a very aggressive trigger will provide a calming affect and also allow the fish to have its own space while with a heavily or "over"stocked tank the trigger will have so much stimuli that it will actually (I believe) cause the release of endorphins and reduce stress *** long as one can keep the water clean. I also believe that trigger fish aggression is a product of stress, from under feeding poor water quality feeling threatened and so forth. with a heavily stocked tank with monster filtration I have kept a humu trigger in a reef aquarium without it ever eating any shrimp coral or snails, I still have that trigger fish to this day. but in a fish only tank now because after a few years it out grew the 40g reef tank. I think its a matter of which trigger you chose based on personality. I watch it feed and its behaviors during feeding time, I watch it interact with other fish, and how it reacts to other fish being aggressive towards it and how it behaves when other fish enter where it rests and hides. I also believe that the most aggressive triggers belong in the ocean because aggression is caused by a deficiency of dopamine in both fish and humans. these fish can not achieve the proper levels of dopamine to remain the typical calm easy going humu trigger that we know. this is different for other trigger fish because of other neural transmitters that they are accustom to that cause them to be unstable in most aquariums. how ever the humu trigger will become very aggressive no mater what you do during matting. but in their natural habitat while I was doing research in the florida keys I would observe even the most aggressive trigger fish while diving like the queen trigger and gray trigger. I saw many and I never saw one to attack any fish or threaten any fish. I stayed my distance to not threaten the fish to avoid an attack. this caused me to believe that this species is a naturally calm fish only showing aggression to defend their territory when threatened or stressed. of course this would have to be a much larger study to confirm. so I have done my best to replicate these calming environments in my house and work place. I have had much success with trigger fish as them being my focus in all my fish tanks. I do think a very large aquarium is one way to go about this. but that size tank is not necessary to do it. you can tell me how sick my fish are and how it will never work but I also doubt you have ever tried it or at least the way I have. in my trigger fish tanks I set up a current like you would see in a jelly fish tank where the water almost rolls along the tank from across the top to across the bottom but at a much much faster flow rate. this provides an almost never ending pool effect and it works great for all my fish and it also helps with dead spots. but im done with this thread now. op I believe you will be fine for a while and over time you will see that you can easily have some success in that size tank with that size trigger. you should see about an inch of growth a year if a male, and about half an inch to 3/4'' a year if its a female. if you wish to keep this fish for the long run I suggest at least a 75g with a outstanding filtration system and live rock with many caves and places the trigger can weave in and out of the live rock. you need heavy filtration because the trigger needs to eat A LOT. also I suggest feeding freeze dried shrimp to help keep its teeth down but feed it with tweezers and hold the food under the water do not let the trigger eat from the surface as it might swallow a bubble and that is bad news. also as feeding goes is you ever see the triggers stomach or gut look pinched feed immediately as this means there is no food in its system and they need to be constantly digesting food and if they are not this can damage their organs. but all the work you have to put in is well worth it because it is a very rewarding fish to keep.

I think we got of base, a humu and the rhinos species as a whole do grow extremely slow, likely closer to a 1/2" a year. But they will reach a size where they do become more aggressive, they are one of the better behaved triggers, but not in a small tank when get to 4-5". It just make me sick how prevalent it is that lfs and online retailers recommend them for 40 and 50g. Today it is buyer beware, do your own research, and find as many sources as you can. I'm a trigger and lion nut, and these guys just aren't for everyone.