How to Quarantine

[alpenreefer]

I will let @Big G or @Humblefish answer on the use of formalin.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/formalin.290925/

If you plan to place them back in the same tank, yes everything would have to be completely sterilized and dry before it could be used again and deemed safe to say its "Clean". Which is why it may be easier to just treat the tank with metro. I am not sure that the time available during the bath will allow you to do this successfully. I think Big G was referring to the use of a 2nd sterile QT that would have to be already set up and running so you could go from QT1 to Bath to QT2, all within 30-45 minutes.

You do not have to acclimate them to copper free, only when introducing them to copper (Which is why extended the ramp up is recommended unless dealing with velvet). Also If you remove them from copper to do a bath, then I do believe it would restart your clock on the 30 day copper treatment (At any point during the 30 day copper treatment, you drop below the therapeutic level, the clock resets). This is also another reason dosing metro may be easier.

If you are going to break down and sterilize QT, I think you could go back with either copper. If they are all tolerating cupramine well and still eating, I'd be apt to tell you to continue with it. If you are starting back from square one either should be fine though.

I don't know what your LFS situation is, but we have a couple here where I live that do carry metroplex. They are smaller locally owned stores, not bigboxes.

Ideally, yes you'd want to get another set of everything(if you go the formalin route). If that isn't an option then dosing metro into the qt will work. Unlike ich or velvet, brook doesn't have a cyst stage(I think) so by dosing metro you're effectively wiping it all out

If any chemical has a chance of eradicating parasites with a direct lifecycle (brook, uronema) with just one 45 min bath, it would be formalin. However, the closer the product is to being “proper formalin” (37% Formaldehyde), the more potent it is, and the greater the chance of success.

After the formalin bath, it is very important to transfer the fish into a new/clean QT to prevent reinfection. Do not reuse ANYTHING from the tank the fish was previously housed in (before the formalin bath) to setup this tank.

I also HIGHLY RECOMMEND dosing metronidazole, every 48 hrs, for 10-14 days just to be sure all the parasites are gone: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/metronidazole.298762/. Think of it as an insurance policy.

ALSO, a fish infected with uronema should be fed food soaked with metronidazole because the disease can spread internally. A formalin bath/metro in the water is unlikely to reach these internal parasites. Seachem Focus can be used to bind the medication to the food.

Thank you all for the help. It's greatly appreciated.

When you say "Do not reuse anything", I'm assuming until everything reusable, excluding the sponge, has been sterilized and dried?

Just to be clear, would you recommend dosing Metro to the existing QT or setting up a new QT2? I do have a second QT setup, as I was originally setting up to do TTM, however I only have one HOB. QT2 would be set up with new water, heat and course air stone until the HOB can be cleaned and dry, which doesn't take long in the Colorado mountains due to lack of humidity. I do have more sponge and Matix I can "seed" overnight. Are the old (less than a week) sponge/matrix cleanable (bleach solution)?

LFS does not carry Metro, so Seachem Metro has been ordered and will be hear tomorrow. My LFS is very under supplied (mountain town). Most everything is special order or Amazon.com. With a "clean" QT2, should I also dose Metro for 10 days in addition to re-dosing the copper once the fish have been placed?

Where can I get full strength Formalin? I cannot locate the actual product.

Again, I apologize if some or all of these questions have been answered elsewhere. I've read and reread so much info over the past couple weeks on R2R's forums, I'm afraid Some is starting to leak out.

 

[deedubz]

I'd honestly recommend a new sponge altogether. Also, I'm not 100% sure whether matrix can be bleached and reused.. I know @Humblefish is currently experimenting with using it in a reactor and dosing copper. If you have the extra media I'd go ahead and just use new. The problem with using the same hob filter is there's so many parts and places water can get stuck in. I personally soak mine in bleach for 10-15 minutes, rinse thoroughly, and then let dry in front of a fan for several days. I also have 7 of them(2 for each of my 3 qt and an extra "emergency" one). You may be better off buying a second(which comes with a sponge and biomax anyway).

As far as formalin goes, I have formalin-ms which was hard to find even online. I BELIEVE quick cure has 37% formaldehyde but I can't swear to it. Do you have acriflavine? Acriflavine-ms or Ruby reef rally are good sources. The RRR, as well as the metroplex, should be available at lfs or Amazon.

Edit- just saw that your lfs doesn't carry metro. I'm pretty sure Amazon carries RRR. Acriflavine-ms was fairly difficult to find online as well

 

[Big G]

Thank you all for the help. It's greatly appreciated.

When you say "Do not reuse anything", I'm assuming until everything reusable, excluding the sponge, has been sterilized and dried?

Just to be clear, would you recommend dosing Metro to the existing QT or setting up a new QT2? I do have a second QT setup, as I was originally setting up to do TTM, however I only have one HOB. QT2 would be set up with new water, heat and course air stone until the HOB can be cleaned and dry, which doesn't take long in the Colorado mountains due to lack of humidity. I do have more sponge and Matix I can "seed" overnight. Are the old (less than a week) sponge/matrix cleanable (bleach solution)?

LFS does not carry Metro, so Seachem Metro has been ordered and will be hear tomorrow. My LFS is very under supplied (mountain town). Most everything is special order or Amazon.com. With a "clean" QT2, should I also dose Metro for 10 days in addition to re-dosing the copper once the fish have been placed?

Where can I get full strength Formalin? I cannot locate the actual product.

Again, I apologize if some or all of these questions have been answered elsewhere. I've read and reread so much info over the past couple weeks on R2R's forums, I'm afraid Some is starting to leak out.

1. Keep separate tools, nets, etc. for each QT. I reuse sponges after bleach, rinse, rinse, dry, for bio film; vinegar, rinse, rinse, dry, for precipitating copper into harmless form.

2. In your QT that is already soaking with copper, you can also dose with metro at the same time to treat Brook. The fish in that tank have been exposed to Brook, even if they are not showing symptoms. So dose the tank with metro. But for the fish showing Brook symptoms, better if you bathe the fish in Formalin or Acriflavine product and then place into a fresh, clean QT to observe. And then follow in that new, clean QT with dosing of Metro, as Humblefish advised. as an insurance/follow up. Brook is a very difficult disease to breakdown.

3. Formalin MS is very hard to find lately. It has a 37% formaldehyde content. So the goal is to find something that is as close to 37% to help beat down this very difficult to treat disease. The only formalin based product I've found lately is Fritz Mardel's Quick Cure. It has formalin but at a much lower concentration. Formalin is nasty stuff and a known carcinogen. An alternative would be the acriflavine product like Ruby Reef Rally or Acriflavine MS. Big fan of RRR.

 

[deedubz]

3. Formalin MS is very hard to find lately. It has a 37% formaldehyde content. So the goal is to find something that is as close to 37% to help beat down this very difficult to treat disease. The only formalin based product I've found lately is Fritz Mardel's Quick Cure. It has formalin but at a much lower concentration. Formalin is nasty stuff and a known carcinogen. An alternative would be the acriflavine product like Ruby Reef Rally or Acriflavine MS. Big fan of RRR.

I agree 100%. Although I have the formalin-ms, I've never used it and hope to never have to. I got it simply to have on hand as an emergency and last resort.

 

[Humblefish]

I'm gonna email Fishvet to find out where to buy Formalin-MS nowadays.

Pet Solutions used to carry it, but I think they are now out of business.

 

[Big G]

I'm gonna email Fishvet to find out where to buy Formalin-MS nowadays.

Pet Solutions used to carry it, but I think they are now out of business.

Found Formalin but it's from a science supply outfit. Not sure if this would work. Pretty large 3.8L
https://www.carolina.com/browse/pro..._chemistry_chemicals&question=Formalin&nore=y

 

[alpenreefer]

I'm gonna email Fishvet to find out where to buy Formalin-MS nowadays.

Pet Solutions used to carry it, but I think they are now out of business.

That would be great. Thanks.

 

[alpenreefer]

Found Formalin but it's from a science supply outfit. Not sure if this would work. Pretty large 3.8L
https://www.carolina.com/browse/product-search-results?N=790004999&Nr=AND(product.siteId:100001,OR(product.displayRestriction:Hide+in+Category,product.displayRestriction:Not+Restricted))&Ntt=Formalin&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpbfCk5S42gIVhqDsCh2x6wXmEAMYASAAEgLsfvD_BwE&s_cid=ppc_gl_chemistry_chemicals&question=Formalin&nore=y

Thanks, but I hope I never need that much.
Maybe 16 oz.

 

[alpenreefer]

Good morning everyone, @Humblefish @Big G @HotRocks @dwwataz
Not much chat this morning. Everyone must be "playing" with their new HI702's?
Not sure if this question should be posted here or not, as it has to do mostly with copper. I recently QT'd fish from my DT due to Velvet/Brook and I am currently treating with Cupramine and Metro (arrives today). I live in a very dry climate with excessive evaporation, so I need to top off QT often. Question: Does Cupramine precipitate? Will Metronizadole (Seachem) precipitate? Can I just top off with RODI (marked QT water level at setup) to keep therapeutic level(s) correct?

Also during the 30-day quarantine period are water changes needed/recommended, and if so how often? How do I adjust/add Cupramine and Metro to QT or new water?

 

[HotRocks]

Good morning everyone, @Humblefish @Big G @HotRocks @dwwataz
Not much chat this morning. Everyone must be "playing" with their new HI702's?
Not sure if this question should be posted here or not, as it has to do mostly with copper. I recently QT'd fish from my DT due to Velvet/Brook and I am currently treating with Cupramine and Metro (arrives today). I live in a very dry climate with excessive evaporation, so I need to top off QT often. Question: Does Cupramine precipitate? Will Metronizadole (Seachem) precipitate? Can I just top off with RODI (marked QT water level at setup) to keep therapeutic level(s) correct?

Also during the 30-day quarantine period are water changes needed/recommended, and if so how often? How do I adjust/add Cupramine and Metro to QT or new water?

Yes just top off with RO to compensate evaporation. The meds will stay in tank, just like salt. If you do water change, yes you have to re-dose the meds. Now specifically with copper, you have to make sure you don't drop below the therapeutic level. I siphon water from the tank into a bucket, place fish in bucket while doing water changes to make sure they are never exposed to sub-therapeutic copper. While they are in the bucket I perform the change and dose copper let it mix then net them back into tank.

Waterchange schedule just depends on your bioload tank size etc. I typically do a 100% change either weekly or bi-weekly. You will know when it's time.

If you are doing a 50% water change you can leave the fish in the tank. But it's critical to get the copper properly mixed into your WC water before you put it in the QT. Test to Make sure it matches the level of the water in QT before you add it.

 

[Big G]

Top off with RODI as normal.
Water changes during copper treatment are a little trickier. Make sure to pre dose the new mixed saltwater with the same level of copper you are taking out of the tank. Never let the tank's copper level drop below therapeutic level. Not even for a few minutes.
Try to do necessary water changes when the next dose of metro is due.

 

[alpenreefer]

Yes just top off with RO to compensate evaporation. The meds will stay in tank, just like salt. If you do water change, yes you have to re-dose the meds. Now specifically with copper, you have to make sure you don't drop below the therapeutic level. I siphon water from the tank into a bucket, place fish in bucket while doing water changes to make sure they are never exposed to sub-therapeutic copper. While they are in the bucket I perform the change and dose copper let it mix then net them back into tank.

Waterchange schedule just depends on your bioload tank size etc. I typically do a 100% change either weekly or bi-weekly. You will know when it's time.

If you are doing a 50% water change you can leave the fish in the tank. But it's critical to get the copper properly mixed into your WC water before you put it in the QT. Test to Make sure it matches the level of the water in QT before you add it.

Top off with RODI as normal.
Water changes during copper treatment are a little trickier. Make sure to pre dose the new mixed saltwater with the same level of copper you are taking out of the tank. Never let the tank's copper level drop below therapeutic level. Not even for a few minutes.
Try to do necessary water changes when the next dose of metro is due.

Thanks. Very helpful.

When you say "You will know when it's time." regarding WC, that will cause me to wonder. I'm a master at knowing when it's martini time, but this QT process is all new. Will the QT be cloudy? Lots of fish waste? Should I base it on Ammonia Alert? There are (5) "smallish" fish in 10G QT w/ 8G water + HOB. Maybe once a week? Every 2-weeks? Recommendations?

Would I be correct in just using "basic math" to calculate Cupramine dose in WC? If 50% WC, then 50% original dose added to WC? My issue is Cupramine at therapeutic level is ~0.5mg/L (correct?) and using the API Cu test kit at that or any level is very suspect.

BTW - QT'd fish are all looking much better than a week ago. Blenny still is not eating as far as I can tell, but he/she/it looks and acts much better. Thank you all for the help!

Again, sorry for all the questions!

 

[Big G]

I've kinda given up on 10 gallon QTs because of the water change thing. Seems like I needed to do 25% water changes about every 3 days or so, just for the discoloration/debris. Never really had an ammonia problem since started using the Bio Spira soaked sponge & biomax. Now I use 20 gal. Especially for bigger fish.

 

[User]

I've kinda given up on 10 gallon QTs because of the water change thing. Seems like I needed to do 25% water changes about every 3 days or so, just for the discoloration/debris. Never really had an ammonia problem since started using the Bio Spira soaked sponge & biomax. Now I use 20 gal. Especially for bigger fish.

I use 3x 10g tanks for TTM (gives me a bit of lee-way on cleaning) then the fish go into a permanent 40b qt/obs tank for 4 weeks before going into DT.

I have a hob for the QT (good up to 100g). I don’t run anything but an air stone in TTM tanks. I do use ammonia alert badges to warn me of high levels, but I’ve never hit a problem within the 3 days turn-around.

 

[PeterG]

@Big G @Humblefish @HotRocks You guys have guided me this far and I want to make sure I get this right.

I’m getting close to completing my first new fish QT, Sunday will mark 30 days of treatment with Coppersafe. I want to touch base before adding these fish to my DT.
Here are what I think are the important dates/facts:
2/23 I bought fish and put in 29 gal QT (Six Line Wrasse, Coral Beauty, Black Darwin Clown and Snowflake Clown)
3/1 first dose of Prazipro - went thru two doses, then used carbon to remove.
3/15 started adding Coppersafe @ rate of 2ml 2 x day
3/23 reached therapeutic dosage. Level has been maintained since then thru several 25% WC. Added Coppersafe to new water and tested before doing WC.

Black Darwin Clown died a couple of weeks after introduction. cant remember if it was before or after I started Coppersafe. Everyone else looks fine and all have been eating a variety of food regularly. I do not see any spots, tears or other visual signs of disease.

Questions:

Do I need to remove the copper from the water to acclimate fish to copper free water before moving fish to DT or can I now just remove fish and acclimate them to my DT?

Anything else I need to do before moving to DT?

If I dont have t remove copper, can I reuse the water on my next batch of fish and treat with Prazi after the copper?

If better to start over, can I use water from my DT (recently completed 76 day fallow period). Will this water already be seeded or do I need to add Dr. Tim’s or something similar?

Anything else I need to know?

Thanks everyone for all your advice.

 

[HotRocks]

I would highly recommend removing copper, and observing for at least 7-14 days to make sure your fish are clean or move them to another sterile QT for observation.
You can achieve this by large water changes and or in combination with running carbon or a cuprisorb pad.
Fish do not have to be acclimated out of copper. Only when introducing them to copper which is why the ramp up is recommended.
I wouldn't re-use copper anyway, because you will want to ramp up your copper on the next batch of fish just like you did this batch. If you dumped new fish directly into the current tank with copper at therapeutic level it probably would not end well.

You can use DT water for WC or fresh batch. But if you already have a seeded biofilter (which I assume you do with fish currently in the QT) then I would just mix up fresh salt water.

 

[PeterG]

I would highly recommend removing copper, and observing for at least 7-14 days to make sure your fish are clean or move them to another sterile QT for observation.
You can achieve this by large water changes and or in combination with running carbon or a cuprisorb pad.
Fish do not have to be acclimated out of copper. Only when introducing them to copper which is why the ramp up is recommended.
I wouldn't re-use copper anyway, because you will want to ramp up your copper on the next batch of fish just like you did this batch. If you dumped new fish directly into the current tank with copper at therapeutic level it probably would not end well.

You can use DT water for WC or fresh batch. But if you already have a seeded biofilter (which I assume you do with fish currently in the QT) then I would just mix up fresh salt water.

Thanks HotRocks - Couple of follow-ups:
Hadn't thought thru the ramp up process w/Copper. Makes sense. Also I just got an Rx filled for Chloroquine Phosphate and think I’ll use that instead of Coppersafe. Need to brush up on the procedure.

If fish don't need to be acclimated out of copper, why would I need to remove copper in order to observe them?

Re; Biofilter. I do have one running. So I can use the whole filter setup without removing and cleaning it? What is the process for prepping the tank/filter set-up for the new water?

 

[HotRocks]

Thanks HotRocks - Couple of follow-ups:
Hadn't thought thru the ramp up process w/Copper. Makes sense. Also I just got an Rx filled for Chloroquine Phosphate and think I’ll use that instead of Coppersafe. Need to brush up on the procedure.

If fish don't need to be acclimated out of copper, why would I need to remove copper in order to observe them?

Re; Biofilter. I do have one running. So I can use the whole filter setup without removing and cleaning it? What is the process for prepping the tank/filter set-up for the new water?

The reason copper needs removed for observation is for two reasons basically.
1. Very rare possibility that fish could still be hosting parasites without visible symptoms. If the fish were housed at the facility where you purchased them from, in low levels of copper for extended period of time, the parasites can build immunity to copper. You wouldn't know this to be the case unless you observe without the presence of copper. Again this would be very rare, but better to play it safe IMO
2. If your Cu level wasn't high enough at any given time throughout the 30 day period, there could still be a chance for a parasite that survived

Either way, you would not be able to see signs until the fish are in a copper free environment.
You can do whatever you like, IMO its just not worth taking a chance putting them in the DT 2 weeks sooner and ending up with an issue, that if they were in QT is much easier to deal with.
That's my .02

Also in regards to the CP You wont want to use it on Anthias, Wrasse, or Blue Hippos.

 

[Humblefish]

If fish don't need to be acclimated out of copper, why would I need to remove copper in order to observe them?

Copper is not a cure-all. There are diseases it does not treat (flukes, bacterial infections), and even some it will just suppress symptoms (brook, uronema). So, you really want to observe a fish in non medicated water for 2-4 weeks to be sure he is “all clear” before introducing into your DT.

 

[PeterG]

The reason copper needs removed for observation is for two reasons basically.
1. Very rare possibility that fish could still be hosting parasites without visible symptoms. If the fish were housed at the facility where you purchased them from, in low levels of copper for extended period of time, the parasites can build immunity to copper. You wouldn't know this to be the case unless you observe without the presence of copper. Again this would be very rare, but better to play it safe IMO
2. If your Cu level wasn't high enough at any given time throughout the 30 day period, there could still be a chance for a parasite that survived

Either way, you would not be able to see signs until the fish are in a copper free environment.
You can do whatever you like, IMO its just not worth taking a chance putting them in the DT 2 weeks sooner and ending up with an issue, that if they were in QT is much easier to deal with.
That's my .02

Also in regards to the CP You wont want to use it on Anthias, Wrasse, or Blue Hippos.

I appreciate the detailed explanation. I'll start removing the copper next Monday on day 31. I'll start non-medicated WCs plus I've got both activated carbon and a cuprisorb pad. Is it OK to add these to the HOB with the biofilter?

Copper is not a cure-all. There are diseases it does not treat (flukes, bacterial infections), and even some it will just suppress symptoms (brook, uronema). So, you really want to observe a fish in non medicated water for 2-4 weeks to be sure he is “all clear” before introducing into your DT.

Can fish be observed in non-medicated water before starting the Prazipro and Copper treatments.