I can't keep anything new alive

[vetteguy53081]

Do you buy chance release bag water into tank?
Additionally, try to change up acclimation and try mine- I pour bags after floating them into bucket and add a cup of water every 15 mins over course of an hour and scoop fish from bucket into a cup and release into tank.

 

[t blackwell]

Thanks so much for the suggestions here. I will say that I've gone to different stores for fish and supplies, and it always ends up the same. I've not tried mail order, but have debated it.

The QT is indeed a completely separate system regarding filtration and the like. To initially set it up I'll use 5 gallons from my DT and 5 gallons of new mixed salt water (I make all my own RO and salt water and test before using) to jump start the cycling, since I don't have the QT up 100% of the time. Food is the same as well.

There was an LFS I used to go to, and ended up getting an ich outbreak from them back when I started and had no QT. There's a couple stores I use now and they have similar systems for sale, selling, treating, etc., but as I mentioned hasn't helped much.

I'm really skeptical about getting fish from online sources or the like, particularly with the ammonia troubles, but it seems like that may be the best option. Thanks very much again.



The flow is good and from what I can tell there are no dead spots - bits of food and the like flow all through the corners, around all the rock, etc. My goby has a cave under one of the rocks, but it's near the nem and that is always flowing, so even below the floor it seems fine.



Thanks very much for the suggestions and encouragement. As I mentioned above in this same comment, I've not tried online ordering before, but have considered it, and may do so just to have a different fish source. Pricing on the online sources is just brutal, though. I might go find another LFS to work with so I can save some hassle of both shipping and ammonia.

As far as the QT is concerned, I know that 10g is small for sure. Most of the recommendations I've seen say 30 tends to be minimum for a QT, but I don't really have the space to upgrade at the moment. It's a really big ask to get livestock from an online source directly to a DT - THAT genuinely scares me. 10 gallons is pretty small though, and so I try to minimize the time the fish spend in it.

I have. Ordered many fish from liveaquaria and saltwater fish...no issues they won't handle...shipping is free with 79bucks to 99$ between the two of them...I don't know why people presume the lfs is better...they both get the fish from suppliers...chances are good these large companies handle the fish well...as it all effects their profit..and they have 2week guarantees..

 

[Cheche]

I will tell you if your lfs keep the fish on hypo plus copper. The problem you could be having is the acclimation. I had my fish on QT for 2 months salt at 1.009 and cupermine after 28 days I stop the copper. And started to raise the salt.. first day lost one yellow tang .. a week later lost one flurry clown fish .. and that was bcoz I raise the salt too fast .. so I started to raise the salt 1 point a day .. 1.009 1.010 1.011 well you get IT. Now after 2 months I got all the fish and put them on my DT aclimatación by drip . Out of the 3 fish I had left 2 die in less then 1 hour . Only one survived and they where all fine the day before even one hour before I transferred them to the DT . So in my opinion is the salt dramatically changed on both systems yours and your lfs.. it take time to acclimate the fish to new lvl of salts

 

[UCF Alum]

Have you tried an ICP test to check for toxic metals that may be coming from top off water or a source inside the tank?

 

[Stuartmercer]

you are dripping to long. once a bag opens the ammonia will basically react with the air and "activate" making it dangerous to fish and starting to burn them. try a shorter drip time. might help.

 

[LesPoissons]

I didnt read every response in this thread, but just incase it hasnt been addressed: Internal parasites dont usually respond to copper and often have no outward symptoms other than stringy poop, which is easy to miss. Fish are eating heartily and swimming fine until they go belly up. If you are using a qt before putting in your tank, use prazi pro or metro plex + focus to make sure that isn't the culprit. Since some of your fish are lasting a long time, that may be the issue. Also (again, sorry, I didnt read all 4 pages) what happens when you get a fish not kept in hyposalinity and add it?

 

[LesPoissons]

Also +1 on the ICP test just in case.

 

[MnFish1]

you are dripping to long. once a bag opens the ammonia will basically react with the air and "activate" making it dangerous to fish and starting to burn them. try a shorter drip time. might help.

This is not true. Follow the acclimation procedures that the place from which you bought the fish recommend. If they say drip - then drip. If not then don't. Many companies recommending drip acclimation have added anti ammonia chemicals to the water in the bag. If you are using a bag from an LFS and its only a short time - there is no ammonia built up in the bag - you can choose to drip or not drip.

 

[Stuartmercer]

This is not true. Follow the acclimation procedures that the place from which you bought the fish recommend. If they say drip - then drip. If not then don't. Many companies recommending drip acclimation have added anti ammonia chemicals to the water in the bag. If you are using a bag from an LFS and it's only a short time - there is no ammonia built up in the bag - you can choose to drip or not drip.

No most companies don't add anti ammonia chemicals due to cost. They rely on people to get the fish home fast and safe. and you'd be surprised how much waste produced when stressed, spoiler, it's a lot.

 

[MnFish1]

No most companies don't add anti ammonia chemicals due to cost. They rely on people to get the fish home fast and safe. and you'd be surprised how much waste produced when stressed, spoiler, it's a lot.

Most companies that ship overnight add a chemical. If they recommend drip acclimation - thats what you should do. Most LFS dont' - and there is also no need to add chemicals - the amount of ammonia released in a small bag is trivial in a short period of time. Spoiler alert - the only time ammonia build up is significant is after several hours in a bag. Either way - the same advice still holds - follow the acclimation procedure recommended from where you bought the fish - not a message board.

 

[Stuartmercer]

Most companies that ship overnight add a chemical. If they recommend drip acclimation - thats what you should do. Most LFS dont' - and there is also no need to add chemicals - the amount of ammonia released in a small bag is trivial in a short period of time. Spoiler alert - the only time ammonia build up is significant is after several hours in a bag. Either way - the same advice still holds - follow the acclimation procedure recommended from where you bought the fish - not a message board.

oh $$%^ I miss read, sry. but the waste due to stress is true

 

[Blutspitze]

Thanks very much for the continued help, everyone, I really appreciate it. Seems that the general consensus is an issue with acclimation from hyposalinity, particularly since I've gotten stock from a few different sources and had the same issues.

Do you buy chance release bag water into tank?
Additionally, try to change up acclimation and try mine- I pour bags after floating them into bucket and add a cup of water every 15 mins over course of an hour and scoop fish from bucket into a cup and release into tank.

I always avoid putting bag water into the tank, mostly due to ammonia potential. I used to do the method you mention, but the store recommended I try drip instead.

I have. Ordered many fish from liveaquaria and saltwater fish...no issues they won't handle...shipping is free with 79bucks to 99$ between the two of them...I don't know why people presume the lfs is better...they both get the fish from suppliers...chances are good these large companies handle the fish well...as it all effects their profit..and they have 2week guarantees..

Good point - I imagine that everyone gets their fish from only a handful of major distributors. No one, be it an LFS or online store, wants their stock dying. The liveaquaria 2 week guarantee is particularly impressive.

I will tell you if your lfs keep the fish on hypo plus copper. The problem you could be having is the acclimation. I had my fish on QT for 2 months salt at 1.009 and cupermine after 28 days I stop the copper. And started to raise the salt.. first day lost one yellow tang .. a week later lost one flurry clown fish .. and that was bcoz I raise the salt too fast .. so I started to raise the salt 1 point a day .. 1.009 1.010 1.011 well you get IT. Now after 2 months I got all the fish and put them on my DT aclimatación by drip . Out of the 3 fish I had left 2 die in less then 1 hour . Only one survived and they where all fine the day before even one hour before I transferred them to the DT . So in my opinion is the salt dramatically changed on both systems yours and your lfs.. it take time to acclimate the fish to new lvl of salts

The LFS that does copper treatment doesn't keep the treatments active once fish are in the store's display tanks. Just the hypo. 1.009 seems really low for yours, but the idea of the very gradual increase seems to be a general consensus here.

Have you tried an ICP test to check for toxic metals that may be coming from top off water or a source inside the tank?

I've not tried that, but someone else recommended it, as well. If my new plan doesn't pan out I'll probably send in a sample.

you are dripping to long. once a bag opens the ammonia will basically react with the air and "activate" making it dangerous to fish and starting to burn them. try a shorter drip time. might help.

This is possible, but unlikely; I only have the fish in the bag for ~30-40 minutes before getting them to the tank for temp acclimation. Less than 2 hours from tank to tank.

I didnt read every response in this thread, but just incase it hasnt been addressed: Internal parasites dont usually respond to copper and often have no outward symptoms other than stringy poop, which is easy to miss. Fish are eating heartily and swimming fine until they go belly up. If you are using a qt before putting in your tank, use prazi pro or metro plex + focus to make sure that isn't the culprit. Since some of your fish are lasting a long time, that may be the issue. Also (again, sorry, I didnt read all 4 pages) what happens when you get a fish not kept in hyposalinity and add it?

It's not been addressed, no. As you said, the stringy poop is tough to see, and honestly I've not been able to notice if this is an issue. Definitely a good idea to add prazi for when I rebuild the QT. I mostly worry since some last days and others weeks - very inconsistent. I'd also like to believe that the stores aren't so bad that parasites are utterly rampant through the whole LFS community, but I suppose it's possible.

I haven't added a normal salinity fish in awhile. The main LFS' I go to all do hypo. A few folks have recommended going with LiveAquaria or the like, that might be helpful.

This is not true. Follow the acclimation procedures that the place from which you bought the fish recommend. If they say drip - then drip. If not then don't. Many companies recommending drip acclimation have added anti ammonia chemicals to the water in the bag. If you are using a bag from an LFS and its only a short time - there is no ammonia built up in the bag - you can choose to drip or not drip.

No most companies don't add anti ammonia chemicals due to cost. They rely on people to get the fish home fast and safe. and you'd be surprised how much waste produced when stressed, spoiler, it's a lot.

After a few fish died, the store recommended the longer drip acclimation to try and help. Since I'm normally less than 2 hours from tank to tank, ammonia isn't a huge problem, but regardless it hasn't helped doing either drip or "bolus" of adding a half cup periodically to the bag.

 

[t blackwell]

If it's shipped overnight..the ammonia can build up and react..that is why when you drop acclimate you can add a drop of seachem prime to the bucket to lock up any ammonia...if you get at lfs..and go home right away..should not be an issue....

 

[MnFish1]

oh $$%^ I miss read, sry. but the waste due to stress is true

Can you give some kind of reference to this.... i.e. that you should NEVER drip acclimate a fish? It is true that if a fish has been in a bag for >12 hours that depending on the amount fed - and the volume of water that ammonia can become a problem - but its not often a problem.

 

[EmptyWallet]

My biggest aggravation in this hobby, LFS failing to mention they run 0.15 - 0.19 salinity when they sell you a fish. Most new reefers (until they learn the harsh lesson) are unaware. Regardless of acclimation method, few fish can survive moving 10 points in salinity in less than an hour. But hey if they die you will probably go back and buy some more = good times for the LFS. I had a similar issue in reverse recently, bought a bunch of Acro frags and the source water was 1.032 salinity - lazy and irresponsible!

 

[Abdullah Al Faruq]

I wonder whether the tank has reached its stocking limits or not.
Territorial issues vary from fish to fish.
Should have enough of rock work to afford being out of sight.
Fish selection could be the reason as well.

 

[Blutspitze]

My biggest aggravation in this hobby, LFS failing to mention they run 0.15 - 0.19 salinity when they sell you a fish. Most new reefers (until they learn the harsh lesson) are unaware. Regardless of acclimation method, few fish can survive moving 10 points in salinity in less than an hour. But hey if they die you will probably go back and buy some more = good times for the LFS. I had a similar issue in reverse recently, bought a bunch of Acro frags and the source water was 1.032 salinity - lazy and irresponsible!

For sure - neither store told me about it until I called and asked - and it was very nonchalant "oh yea, we keep at hypo". Just.... frustrating. 032 seems SUPER high - I'm surprised that the corals were OK there. Seems like that'd be deadly to them, or at least highly unpleasant.

I wonder whether the tank has reached its stocking limits or not.
Territorial issues vary from fish to fish.
Should have enough of rock work to afford being out of sight.
Fish selection could be the reason as well.

I guess this is possible, but really unlikely. When I added the Elibi, I only had 4 other fish, same for most. I've got some very extensive rock work, as well, with plenty of good hiding places. I'm always careful to find fish that are mild temperaments so everyone should get along (had issues with massive aggression previously). It is still possible, though not too likely.

 

[joeyamador]

Every death I have ever had has been due to lack of knowledge at my lfs..(hypo salinity), temp. Shock(15 years ago though), or stress even after qt.. I made an acrylic chamber in my sump that allows me to drip acclimate and temp acclimate at the same time.. the run over from chamber goes into a 5 gallon bucket so nothing goes into display system then I place the fish in my tanklimate/acclimation box at night to help with stress.. I have heard low red light during this time helps but not sure if that is true or not.
(The acclimation chamber is removable and is warmed by the surrounding water in the sump..) I have a large system so this helps me not sure about your system size. My 2 cents though..

P.s. yes I know it could leak but I doubt it as I remove it and clean/maintain it and the only place it could leak is overly done with a schedule 80 bulk head and dual gaskets.... just to clarify.

 

[joeyamador]

Oh... and if you're concerned with your water or wondering if something is off have you sent in any water for icp testing? I have noticed a lot of fish can slowly acclimate to elevated levels with little signs (low obviously) but could potentially shock a new addition.. my tank almost crashed and I couldnt figure it out to save my life and after icp testing i noticed there was copper in my system.. well my 3 year old daughter had thrown some change in my sump that i didnt see until i was siphoning out the fish poo in the sump. Freaked me out but everything recovered in a few months. (I know this post is about fish but you never know).

 

[Abdullah Al Faruq]

You have not stated the measurements of your DT anywhere or I may have missed that.
And, the point raised by many regarding very very slow raising of salinity is something very noteworthy I think.
It also happens to be a fact that there are strong fishes and weak fishes as well as every other thing in between.
An ICP test should settle some big doubts.
And lastly, go visit some fellow reefers to freshen up your clogged mind, find peace, gather your wits, calm down and refocus.;Happy;Happy
Best wishes.