I want an Angler So Bad.

[duberii]

I'm looking at getting an angler, but I really want to make sure I can keep it alive considering the price. From my understanding, they are decently hardy, but it can be hard to get them eating frozen or prepared food. (Correct me if I'm wrong in any of this stuff). I also have heard that they only need to eat once every few days, but will happily eat whenever food is present. The danger with these guys seems to be overfeeding and its effects on water quality and possibly gut rot (I haven't read anything specifically on this, but with anything that eats a ton but can only digest so much at a time, this seems to be an issue). They also walk, so they do best in a low flow tank.

Now for my concerns when adding one to my tank:
Size: I have a 40 breeder with a ~35 gallon sump.
Tankmates: I have a clownfish and a scooter blenny, which would certainly be eaten quickly. I would rehome these guys before adding the angler. I also have a fire shrimp, but I've had that for about 2 years now, which could mean it's nearing the end of its life - So when I finally do get an angler that hopefully wont be an issue. I also have a fighting conch, snails, a serpent star, and a decorator crab (which stays hidden in the corner of the tank where not even my fingers can reach), so I don't think I'll have an issue with any of those disappearing. I also have a ton of corals, but I think anglers are reef safe and won;t bother corals all that much. I should probably glue more of my farags down though because I assume they don't really crae about all the time I took to place the frags where I did
Tank temp: I keep my tank at 78 degrees, which is higher than the number I've seen thrown around for anglers which is 74. Does anybody know if that should be fine, or if I should consider lowing my temperature to 76 over time?
Filtration: Since the only fish that will be in the tank at that point would be the angler, so I'm not too worried about a nutrient issue- I have a refugium with chaeto and some extra live rock, and a protein skimmer rated for up to 90 gallons (not as oversized as I'd like, but it does its job and does it well).

Does anybody see any issues/ have any advice? I'm super excited about getting one but I can wait as long as it takes to give it a good tank.

 

[lion king]

Anglers are not hardy, they have a very high mortality rate, and most even after acclimated successfully live a very short life in captivity. You have many of the other points correct and your set up would be perfect, as long as he is the only occupant. The biggest 1st mistake is to get hung up on "training your angler" to dead food, this is pretty much a death sentence. I don't know any that even live a year after eating a dead only diet. You can find many of my threads that discuss the reason why this happens. The angler can be a fun fish for the right person, but they are sedentary and most people get pretty bored with them. They live in tropical waters so your temp is fine and they won't eat hard bodied inverts. Their method of eating is gorge/fast, so you feed them really well and give days between feedings, a mature angler can be fed once a week to every 10 days. Keeping mg levels to at least reef levels is good, if you read my thread "Why mg", you'll see see some of my points.

Which species are you interested in?

 

[duberii]

Anglers are not hardy, they have a very high mortality rate, and most even after acclimated successfully live a very short life in captivity. You have many of the other points correct and your set up would be perfect, as long as he is the only occupant. The biggest 1st mistake is to get hung up on "training your angler" to dead food, this is pretty much a death sentence. I don't know any that even live a year after eating a dead only diet. You can find many of my threads that discuss the reason why this happens. The angler can be a fun fish for the right person, but they are sedentary and most people get pretty bored with them. They live in tropical waters so your temp is fine and they won't eat hard bodied inverts. Their method of eating is gorge/fast, so you feed them really well and give days between feedings, a mature angler can be fed once a week to every 10 days. Keeping mg levels to at least reef levels is good, if you read my thread "Why mg", you'll see see some of my points.

Which species are you interested in?

From the sounds of it it seems like now may not be the right time for one- I think they’re adorable and would pretty much kill for one, but I’d rather not be wishful and think I’m different from other reefers and keep an angler for decades. I don’t really mind the lack of motion they bring- I think their looks are enough and as long as it perches in an area where I can see it and it doesn’t harm my corals, I’m down.
When I hear about live food, people are pretty much always talking about saltwater ghost shrimp- I doubt that’s what you’re talking about since those aren’t that nutritious at all, so it wouldn’t do much good. If there was a possibility I could culture any live food myself, then maybe it would be easier to take care of for me, but I bet you’re talking about live fish and such, which doesn’t seem as feasible.
I also don’t think my water quality is good enough for them, since I can’t seem to keep any sps (even though my LPS tend to do well? All while consistently getting low test results- that’s another puzzle) and something tells me it’s water quality. I’m not sure in what sense they’re not hardy, whether it be their feeding requirements or their sensitivity to water quality or both.
as for the species, I really am not picky. I love all of their appearances, but I’ve always been attracted to either the ones that look like sea sponges, or the ones that are “hairy” and have the lure thing (I know the formal term but it’s eluding me)- I’m sure I’m thinking of a specific species and just don’t know it, but maybe my pathetic description may help

 

[lion king]

There are alot of myths about feeding live, and trust me, if you read any of my threads, the info I give is from real life experience. The hairy one you are talking about is also known as the sargassum angler, I believe the one you say looks like a sponge is likely a painted angler. The painted angler will imprint to the colors in your tank, in the wild they live among sponges. The sargassum is very popular, their lure(esca) resembles a worm. The size of both of these would mean your 40B would be for them only. They are happy to live with lps and do not need sps type water conditions. The main fail in keeping these are feeding requirements, and overfeeding, which many times is feeding too frequently. Keeping them in community tanks where they eat something too big or are fed something too big also spells their demise. In a community tank they also get injured and it ends in a bacterial infection. The larger ones come with internal parasites many times and they are susceptible to protozoan diseases(ick and velvet). They do not handle meds well, if not at all, even people reporting they have treated them successfully, fail to tell you they died shortly afterwards. Small ones can live off of ghost shrimp and feeder guppies, and when larger, mollies. Read about these food choices in many of my threads. At the top end with the best care, most anglers will live between 3-5 years, I say closer to 3.

 

[duberii]

There are alot of myths about feeding live, and trust me, if you read any of my threads, the info I give is from real life experience. The hairy one you are talking about is also known as the sargassum angler, I believe the one you say looks like a sponge is likely a painted angler. The painted angler will imprint to the colors in your tank, in the wild they live among sponges. The sargassum is very popular, their lure(esca) resembles a worm. The size of both of these would mean your 40B would be for them only. They are happy to live with lps and do not need sps type water conditions. The main fail in keeping these are feeding requirements, and overfeeding, which many times is feeding too frequently. Keeping them in community tanks where they eat something too big or are fed something too big also spells their demise. In a community tank they also get injured and it ends in a bacterial infection. The larger ones come with internal parasites many times and they are susceptible to protozoan diseases(ick and velvet). They do not handle meds well, if not at all, even people reporting they have treated them successfully, fail to tell you they died shortly afterwards. Small ones can live off of ghost shrimp and feeder guppies, and when larger, mollies. Read about these food choices in many of my threads. At the top end with the best care, most anglers will live between 3-5 years, I say closer to 3.

Interesting... I wonder what they're not getting from something like frozen scallops or silversides and such that they would be getting from live foods? Even with the variety people could provide. I just started making my own fish food from frozen seafood mixes so I guess if I got an angler I wouldn't need to do that anymore. Could I keep the ghost shrimp in my sump to breed (maybe?) or is it kind of inevitable that I'll have to keep buying food for them? Freshwater feeder guppies are pretty cheap, but are they ok to feed to the anglers, or is there a different kind of feeder guppy that I should be looking for? Also, the feeders for sale tend to be sickly, and would that have an effect on the angler at all? If I'm feeding an angler one or two $0.10 feeders every week I shouldn't have an issue with that (and those things reproduce like crazy).

Also, how do I know how big of a meal to feed them? It can't be similar to the anemone's "as big as the mouth" rule, since they are pretty much all mouth...

I know I have ich in my system currently... so I guess I should do a fallow period and a strict quarantine before adding the angler to the reef tank- do you see any issues with that? Are they hard to get eating at first, even with live food? Should I remove any uneaten live food (as unlikely as that is) to avoid them bothering the angler? (I'm thinking similar to a tarantula).

Sorry for all the questions- I'm determined to have my angler live as long as possible

 

[lion king]

You would want to do a fallow period after the last fish is removed from your system to ensure there is no lingering ick. If the anglers gets is, he's pretty much a goner, they will not tolerate copper or any other treatment that I know of. After your fallow period you could just add him to the system since he will be the only inhabitant.

You can click on my name and "find all threads" to get loads of info on feeding preds. From the myths of feeding freshwater fare to the nutritional challenges of feeding dead and thiaminese. You do want to feed smaller food items rather than a very large one, I would say never more than 1/3 the length of the angler. Small ones will be good with ghosties and guppies but as they get larger you'll have to find appropriate sized mollies. Breeding mollies is quite easy, ghost shrimp not so much. I haven't done guppies except by accident, but it appears easy as well. You can search how to set up for breeding guppies and/or mollies. You could be feeding a small angler 5 or more guppies or ghosties a week. An adult painted or sargassum could put down about 3 - 1.5" mollies a week. You feed them until you can see a nice bulge in their belly. You just put a few in and watch him hunt, that's the fun of having an angler. Sometimes you help him by herding them towards him so he can catch them, and you monitor him to make sure he eats. I don't get people that want to feed them dead chunks of meat from a stick, it destroys their nature and they basically become a silicone ornament.

I don't mind answering all the questions, I want people to be successful.

 

[duberii]

You would want to do a fallow period after the last fish is removed from your system to ensure there is no lingering ick. If the anglers gets is, he's pretty much a goner, they will not tolerate copper or any other treatment that I know of. After your fallow period you could just add him to the system since he will be the only inhabitant.

You can click on my name and "find all threads" to get loads of info on feeding preds. From the myths of feeding freshwater fare to the nutritional challenges of feeding dead and thiaminese. You do want to feed smaller food items rather than a very large one, I would say never more than 1/3 the length of the angler. Small ones will be good with ghosties and guppies but as they get larger you'll have to find appropriate sized mollies. Breeding mollies is quite easy, ghost shrimp not so much. I haven't done guppies except by accident, but it appears easy as well. You can search how to set up for breeding guppies and/or mollies. You could be feeding a small angler 5 or more guppies or ghosties a week. An adult painted or sargassum could put down about 3 - 1.5" mollies a week. You feed them until you can see a nice bulge in their belly. You just put a few in and watch him hunt, that's the fun of having an angler. Sometimes you help him by herding them towards him so he can catch them, and you monitor him to make sure he eats. I don't get people that want to feed them dead chunks of meat from a stick, it destroys their nature and they basically become a silicone ornament.

I don't mind answering all the questions, I want people to be successful.

I've actually been pretty successful breeding ghosties- it seemed like my females always had eggs, which eventually disappeared and showed up as free-swimming shrimp- they do well with algae pellets once they can fight the current, and when they first hatch flakes are good since mine all sat at the top- just crush the flakes into powder so they can get it. My compaint was that they grow super slow, and I'd probably need a larger tank to sustain a supply for an angler.

Should I be acclamating my feeder fish? I could set up a guppy tank maybe (if you think they would be a good choice), since I bred those in the past (who hasn't?). I agree with the fun of feeding live- I think among the fun of having an angler is 1) Watching them flail their lure around, which you've said fades away as they lose the necessity to hunt for food in favor of dead food and 2) Seeing their ambush behavior!

When you're saying guppies, do you mean babies or full grown guppies? I'll try to feed a mix just to try and get as well-rounded of a diet as possible, though from what I've read of yours it seems like that isn't really an issue with live foods, especially when considering the natural progression of feeding larger prey.

As for sourcing of the angler, I'd hate to have to order one online, but I haven't seen any at my LFS... I could probably ask them to special order it though- I'll see about that when I'm ready to buy one. Is online buying a no-go? I know I can't monitor it first that way, but I feel like observing the behavior of an angler is fairly difficult considering its behavior consists of nothing, frankly. Perhaps feeding is a better measure? If you do think I'd be fine ordering online, do you have a go-to website?

 

[duberii]

I'm also torn on the species I'd like again- I think the white and red/orange wartskin anglers are stunning, but I love the lure action that a sargassum has... I know the watskin I like would probably change colors to a more yellowish in my tank as to blend in, so I'm leaning toward the sargassum- the only issue is my mom loves my tank and I'm not sure she'd be the biggest fan of my new friend... I think the wartskin is a little more pallatable, whatever that means in this context.

Edit: For some reason I thought the wartskin didn't have an illicium, but it does! maybe that just sealed the deal. Are they harder to take care of?

 

[lion king]

Wartys do have an illicium, it's like a little piece of cotton. They tend to maintain their colors well if they have some color around to imprint. In rock only tanks I've seen them turn shades of grayish and greenish. They do stay smaller and keeping them on ghosties and guppies their whole life is easier, but you might be feeding them several at a feeding when the are full grown. I've found them to be less active and more laid back than a sargassum or painted. Painted and sargassums can get pretty aggressive going on the hunt. They will stop using their esca all together if fed from a stick, usually camp out in the feeding spot, and never move again until they stop eating and die.

Be careful through your research as to how long people are keeping them and how long they have had them relative to what they are reporting. All anglers will not accept dead foods; one of my painted got so angry with me taunting him with dead food, one day he marched down from his perch, grab the food, and spit it out, like right in my face(hahaha). Sometimes they will take some but not enough to sustain, and sometimes for a while and just stop. You will also be feeding pellet food to "gut load" the feeders. The live food is a completely balanced food. My smaller preds always started out on ghosties and guppies. My larger ones will get ghosties and mollies. Food size will be determined by the size of the angler, there is no need for acclimation as they will likely be dispatched of pretty quickly. Drop only one or a few at a time until you learn their routine, so you can keep track of them. I have a rhino right now that eats mollies exclusively, and has for about 1.5 years. My fu ate mollies exclusively for about 3 years. I've kept predators for several years and as long as a decade on ghosties, guppies, and mollies. Dead food in my house is only a supplemental food.

 

[lion king]

O, first, I would see if your lfs can order you one. That's if you go with a sargassum, because wartys and painted come in so many combinations I would want to see it in person unless you are not as picky as I. If these I would check Divers Den, they seem have anglers regularly.

https://www.liveaquaria.com/divers-den/product/529449/wartskin-angler

You can also get sargassums from:

Sargassum Angler Fish

Sargassumfish, Histrio histrio is a cool little fish that we occasionally get. It is in the same family as the angler fish and Frog fish. They are agressive eaters and can eat other fish or shrimps almost as big as they are. When they move, they appear to walk with their fins. The ones that […]

www.kpaquatics.com

Sargassum Angler (Histrio histrio) | Caribbean Tropicals

The Sargassum Angler (Histrio histrio), or Frogfish is a smaller Angler/Frog, growing to roughly 8". This is the most common Angler/Frog in our waters. It is unique, as in the wild it floats and blends in with the sargassum patches free floating in the ocean, and is the only species in it's...

www.caribbeantropicals.com

Acclimation: initial acclimation is important to match sg, equalize ph, and do not expose to air, they must be released under water.

 

[duberii]

Wartys do have an illicium, it's like a little piece of cotton. They tend to maintain their colors well if they have some color around to imprint. In rock only tanks I've seen them turn shades of grayish and greenish. They do stay smaller and keeping them on ghosties and guppies their whole life is easier, but you might be feeding them several at a feeding when the are full grown. I've found them to be less active and more laid back than a sargassum or painted. Painted and sargassums can get pretty aggressive going on the hunt. They will stop using their esca all together if fed from a stick, usually camp out in the feeding spot, and never move again until they stop eating and die.

Be careful through your research as to how long people are keeping them and how long they have had them relative to what they are reporting. All anglers will not accept dead foods; one of my painted got so angry with me taunting him with dead food, one day he marched down from his perch, grab the food, and spit it out, like right in my face(hahaha). Sometimes they will take some but not enough to sustain, and sometimes for a while and just stop. You will also be feeding pellet food to "gut load" the feeders. The live food is a completely balanced food. My smaller preds always started out on ghosties and guppies. My larger ones will get ghosties and mollies. Food size will be determined by the size of the angler, there is no need for acclimation as they will likely be dispatched of pretty quickly. Drop only one or a few at a time until you learn their routine, so you can keep track of them. I have a rhino right now that eats mollies exclusively, and has for about 1.5 years. My fu ate mollies exclusively for about 3 years. I've kept predators for several years and as long as a decade on ghosties, guppies, and mollies. Dead food in my house is only a supplemental food.

I definitely will be feeding live- it's such a simple change that it would be stupid to skip over, since I know how to breed the shrimp and guppies, and even if I can't, petco has dirt cheap feeders. I have this chroma boost food (Everything in my tank loves it, but I'll have to check out its nutrition facts to see if it would be good for the angler). I'll also be sure to drip acclimate the frogfish over time.

More of a general question- do all frogfish and anglers have illicia(?)? Is it one of the defining factors of their genera/family/whatever grouping frogfish are? Also, do they grow back if lost? I assume a fairly common issue is that fish are able to latch on to the esca and tear it off, which would harm the fish's hunting ability- I assume the illicia can't be torn off since it is an extension of the skeleton.

 

[lion king]

I definitely will be feeding live- it's such a simple change that it would be stupid to skip over, since I know how to breed the shrimp and guppies, and even if I can't, petco has dirt cheap feeders. I have this chroma boost food (Everything in my tank loves it, but I'll have to check out its nutrition facts to see if it would be good for the angler). I'll also be sure to drip acclimate the frogfish over time.

More of a general question- do all frogfish and anglers have illicia(?)? Is it one of the defining factors of their genera/family/whatever grouping frogfish are? Also, do they grow back if lost? I assume a fairly common issue is that fish are able to latch on to the esca and tear it off, which would harm the fish's hunting ability- I assume the illicia can't be torn off since it is an extension of the skeleton.

As far as I know they all do have it, and yes it will grow back. The sargassum's kind of creeps me out.

 

[imchuco]

following

 

[duberii]

As far as I know they all do have it, and yes it will grow back. The sargassum's kind of creeps me out.

I wish I could find what it looks like- it seems like there's a shortage of footage of frogfish using their lures
I think the hairy frogfish has an even freakier one- it looks like a bleached earthworm.
Can't find it in action but you can see a few of them just hanging out on their backs in this video

 

[lion king]

Here's one of the sargassum, yeah I call the sargassum's I know the new used term is "hairy".


warty

 

[duberii]

Here's one of the sargassum, yeah I call the sargassum's I know the new used term is "hairy".


warty

Are they referring to the same fish? Hairy (striated) anglers look different from the sargassums I'm looking at. Their lures do look the same though (or at least extremely simillar) so I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually two names for the same fish. They do seem to have different scientific names though.

 

[lion king]

No, you are right, there are actually 2 species that for a long while were interchangable. There is the antennarius striatus and the antennarius hispidus which are very similar, then there's the histrio histro which is actually what I am referring to as the sargassum angler. The 2 antennarius variety is more what people will call the hairy. Take a look at liveaquaria's listing of the antennarius striatus and you'll see it's actually a histrio histrio. So be careful if you are set on the more hairy variety. The confusion lies in that all are striped on the body.

 

[duberii]

No, you are right, there are actually 2 species that for a long while were interchangable. There is the antennarius striatus and the antennarius hispidus which are very similar, then there's the histrio histro which is actually what I am referring to as the sargassum angler. The 2 antennarius variety is more what people will call the hairy. Take a look at liveaquaria's listing of the antennarius striatus and you'll see it's actually a histrio histrio. So be careful if you are set on the more hairy variety. The confusion lies in that all are striped on the body.

Not sure where either of my LFSs order from, but I know a ton of importers don't identify their specimen accurately (or at all). If I did decide to go with a sargassum, but actually recieve one of the hairy frogfish, is it a huge deal? I would be willing to put in some research in order to identify any frogfish I do receive (just in case- you never know), but I'm curious to know if, besides size and appearence, if the type of frogfish matters much. Are some more sensitive, harder to feed, deifferent behaviorally, require special care, etc? I know you mentioned sargassums and painted anglers tend to be more active than wartskins, but do you have any other distinctions beyond appearence that will dictate my care of whatever angler I get?

 

[lion king]

Not sure where either of my LFSs order from, but I know a ton of importers don't identify their specimen accurately (or at all). If I did decide to go with a sargassum, but actually recieve one of the hairy frogfish, is it a huge deal? I would be willing to put in some research in order to identify any frogfish I do receive (just in case- you never know), but I'm curious to know if, besides size and appearence, if the type of frogfish matters much. Are some more sensitive, harder to feed, deifferent behaviorally, require special care, etc? I know you mentioned sargassums and painted anglers tend to be more active than wartskins, but do you have any other distinctions beyond appearence that will dictate my care of whatever angler I get?

They all are similar in care and for the most part are similar in success, if cared for properly. The problem is most do not, my biggest recommendation are, species tank and feed live. The pygmy's are the only ones that I have never known anyone or even heard of anyone keeping more than just a few months. I have never tried these myself.

 

[duberii]

They all are similar in care and for the most part are similar in success, if cared for properly. The problem is most do not, my biggest recommendation are, species tank and feed live. The pygmy's are the only ones that I have never known anyone or even heard of anyone keeping more than just a few months. I have never tried these myself.

pygmies are the tiny ones right? From a quick search it appears people are keeping them in tanks between 2 and 10 gallons, which sounds like an issue to me. I also haven't read anything about feeding live food, which you have taught me is huge for predators...

Another questions (which may be a stupid one) is will some of my corals/anemones be dangerous to them? I have a BTA, rock anemone, dendrophyllia, and a frogspawn, all of which I'm worried about harming the frogfish. From what I've found frogfish have thick skin that should protect them quite a bit against stinging animals like corals and anemones, but I'm also coming up with anecdotal evidence that corals can sting them and harm their health. I assume the corals just did the already dying frogfish in, since most people don't care for them properly anyways, but I'd like to hear if you have anything on the topic.