ICP Test Recommendation - 5 different options?

[Pod_01]

There should be science documentation supporting these trace elements are useful for corals nothing a simple search cant do. I find a lot of these elements help corals photosynthesized, enzymes or biological process including lighting and pest, they could handle it more without RTN or STN

Just my opinion,
I don’t think there actually are a lot of scholarly articles that show clear benefits of number of trace elements and the types of corals we keep.

Take Iodine and Fluoride, I don’t believe there are scholarly article that clearly shows how most corals we keep benefit from these elements.

There are statements repeated by certain companies promoting certain bottles…

Yesterday I heard Adam from Frag Garage say that Fauna Marine will be also including MS test to there line

So Fauna Marine now approves MS…
Just a year back Fauna Marine tried to downplay MS and promoted OES as the only option.
Interesting…

 

[eggie]

I partly agree with your first point, my statement was incorrect. Many of these elements are likely important but we don’t know what levels are needed. For the levels, I suppose its reasonable to argue ocean levels are a good target. I also don’t know about chemical state. ICP doesn’t tell you and it might matter. I’m not so sure how well documented the connection is to specific biological processes or health issues beyond anecdotes, but I’ll admit to not spending a lot of time researching it.

I do like your point about contaminants. I’ve caught a magnet corroding due to an ICP/OES test and I forgot all about that.

I started the same way, but the way that it works out is very easy and Iv seen the results
Every company gives a base line like were your elements are and were they need to be;
but patience is key you got to dose in small quantity until you reach the goal.


Most of these elements are removed by water changes, consumed or remove by mechanical filtration and deplated by oxidation.
Some elements values are higher then ocean levels for the same reason mention before, we cant compare our glass box to the ocean we could only mimic it.

I really dont now how Fauna Marine, ATI or Triton works Im pretty sure the same way; But Moonshiners has a table were you input your dosis and it will tell you your dosis to reach each element and what each element could do (theoretically)

Yep and there are others out there as I mentioned. No argument. The question comes down to each hobbyist and what they believe is best for them as we are not comparing results side by side. If a hobbyist wants to compare more power to them but that has been done already and is exhausting in my opinion.

yeah I have friends ask me if they should do ICP. I tell them if your not going to correct any elements then why bother buying an ICP. But if you have problems and want to know would could be affecting then an ICP is a good way to start.

 

[eggie]

So Fauna Marine now approves MS…
Just a year back Fauna Marine tried to downplay MS and promoted OES as the only option.
Interesting…

Check out Adams from Beyond the Reef last podcast with Peter DInh from Bayarea Reef. Adam is one of Fauna Marines consulter and is aware of everything in ICP and FM

 

[rishma]

I started the same way, but the way that it works out is very easy and Iv seen the results
Every company gives a base line like were your elements are and were they need to be;
but patience is key you got to dose in small quantity until you reach the goal.


Most of these elements are removed by water changes, consumed or remove by mechanical filtration and deplated by oxidation.
Some elements values are higher then ocean levels for the same reason mention before, we cant compare our glass box to the ocean we could only mimic it.

I really dont now how Fauna Marine, ATI or Triton works Im pretty sure the same way; But Moonshiners has a table were you input your dosis and it will tell you your dosis to reach each element and what each element could do (theoretically)

Ok, so my current tank is LPS. Health, growth and color are all great. In my past SPS tanks, there was a lot of color changes clearly observable with water chemistry. I don’t observe much color shift it in my LPS. Changes in my water chemistry are generally more observable in corals being more open or closed or growth rate.

With an LPS tank that I’m quite pleased with, what might be the benefit of better trace management?

I hope that comes across as a serious question. I’m not trolling. I’m a constant tinkerer and always experimenting. Im bound to go down another rabbit hole. I’m genuinely curious.

 

[eggie]

Ok, so my current tank is LPS. Health, growth and color are all great. In my past SPS tanks, there was a lot of color changes clearly observable with water chemistry. I don’t observe much color shift it in my LPS. Changes in my water chemistry are generally more observable in corals being more open or closed or growth rate.

With an LPS tank that I’m quite pleased with, what might be the benefit of better trace management?

I hope that comes across as a serious question. I’m not trolling. I’m a constant tinkerer and always experimenting. Im bound to go down another rabbit hole. I’m genuinely curious.

Things I observe in my tank which is a mix reef (SPS,LPS) have been color, growth rate and overall coral health.
Were Iv seen corals that were removed from other tanks not doing so good to doing better on a more stable tank. But obviously I cant attribute all to the elements evendo the other tank had most of the things I have even better PH, But I sure think the elements are playing part of the role.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Things I observe in my tank which is a mix reef (SPS,LPS) have been color, growth rate and overall coral health.
Were Iv seen corals that were removed from other tanks not doing so good to doing better on a more stable tank. But obviously I cant attribute all to the elements evendo the other tank had most of the things I have even better PH, But I sure think the elements are playing part of the role.

The issue is more complicated than a simple number as some trace elements come in many chemical forms with different bioavailability.

I also believe the Moonshiners recommends dosing some useless elements, but none of their users will know that unless they experiment by not following the full plan.

 

[eggie]

The issue is more complicated than a simple number as some trace elements come in many chemical forms with different bioavailability.

I also believe the Moonshiners recommends dosing some useless elements, but none of their users will know that unless they experiment by not following the full plan.

Hi Randy Happy New Year
Which elements you find useless to dose ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy Happy New Year
Which elements you find useless to dose ?

It’s not that I personally find them useless, it’s that they have no use known to science in any known organism. Barium and rubidium are the two I am referring to.

There are others that I personally would not dose, such as strontium, but at least there are known creatures that use those, even if few of us keep them.

 

[rishma]

It’s not that I personally find them useless, it’s that they have no use known to science in any known organism. Barium and rubidium are the two I am referring to.

There are others that I personally would not dose, such as strontium, but at least there are known creatures that use those, even if few of us keep them.

I need some of those creatures because apparently my strontium is high :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I need some of those creatures because apparently my strontium is high :)

Lol

Here’s some:

Aquarium Chemistry: Strontium and the Reef Aquarium

This article on strontium is the second of several that delve into a variety of issues involving magnesium and strontium.

reefs.com

​

Organisms That Use Strontium: Acantharia​

One of the main users of strontium in the ocean are the Acantharia.4, 9-16 These beautiful, free floating unicellular microorganisms are related to radiolaria. They have radiating spines of strontium sulfate that are largely external to the central cytoplasm. Inside the “body”, the spines are connected. The end result is something that looks like a microscopic sea urchin.

Acantharia live in the upper regions of the oceans where they deposit their strontium sulfate skeletons. Presumably, these skeletons are protected from dissolution somehow, perhaps with an organic coating as the radiolarian Sphaerozoum punctatumdoes, described in the next section. When Acantharia die and sink, the protection of the strontium sulfate is lost, exposing the strontium sulfate to the open water, resulting in dissolution. They are populous enough that they are an important part of the strontium cycle in the oceans (which also includes river and hydrothermal vent input), taking strontium from the surface and delivering it to depths of up to 900 m, where most have completely dissolved.14,15

Are there Acantharia in reef aquaria? I don’t know. In aquaria that use natural seawater they might be seeded into the aquarium every time there is a water change. If there are appreciable numbers in some aquaria, then they might well provide a significant sink for strontium in those aquaria. In fact, they could cause rapid depletion of strontium. In other aquaria, for example those that use heavy skimming and artificial salt water, the likelihood that they are present in important numbers is likely much smaller. This potential difference between aquaria is one of many ways that the strontium balance may vary between different aquaria.

Organisms That Use Strontium: Radiolaria​

Certain species of radiolaria also use strontium sulfate, despite having silica skeletons. The radiolarian Sphaerozoum punctatum, for example, release flagellated swarmers during reproduction which contain crystals of strontium sulfate (celestite).17-19 These crystals are deposited inside a cytoplasmic vacuole, and have a 50-100 nm thick coating of organic material on it. This coating may reduce the likelihood of dissolution of the celestite, and may be a clue as to how the Acantharia keep their strontium sulfate spines from dissolving. What purpose these crystals serve to the S. punctatum is unknown, but it may be an antipredatory defense.

Organisms That Use Strontium: Gastropods​

Some gastropods, such as the sea slug Aplysia californica, have a clearly defined requirement for strontium in the water. When they are grown in artificial seawater lacking strontium, they develop deformed shells and statocysts (that lack a statolith).20 Statocysts are balance organs in many invertebrates. They consist of a fluid-filled sac containing statoliths that stimulate sensory cells and help indicate position when the animal moves. Statoliths themselves are small solid granules, and are made largely of calcium carbonate in Aplysia californica.

These organisms are quite sensitive to reductions in strontium, with a drop of only 1 ppm causing a detectable difference in development. For this organism there is a critical window of strontium exposure around day 4 of its life. Strontium added after that point cannot make up for the poorly developed statolith, which causes erratic swimming.

How exactly the strontium is used in the deposition of shells and the statolith is not known, but it is apparently somehow related to calcification.21 The statoliths of A. californica raised in normal seawater have been shown to contain elevated strontium.22 In the absence of strontium, the calcification is decreased by 80%. At low strontium levels, calcification was not significantly reduced, but the shell and statolith were still defective. These researchers concluded “Although the role of strontium in embryonic calcification of A. californica remains enigmatic, these data suggest that strontium affects a highly discrete regulatory component because these more general indicators of calcification and differentiation are unaffected by its absence.”

Organisms That Use Strontium: Cephalopods​

As in Aplysia californica, strontium appears to be important to the development of at least 7 species of cephalopod.23,24 In all of these, the aragonite statolith develops properly in artificial seawater containing 8 ppm strontium, but not in artificial seawater from which strontium is absent. The end result for cephalopods raised in seawater lacking strontium is uncontrolled swimming due to the poor statolith development. For cuttlefish ( Sepia officinalis ) the cuttlebone also develops improperly in the absence of strontium.

 

[rishma]

Lol

Here’s some:

Organisms That Use Strontium: Acantharia​

One of the main users of strontium in the ocean are the Acantharia.4, 9-16 These beautiful, free floating unicellular microorganisms are related to radiolaria. They have radiating spines of strontium sulfate that are largely external to the central cytoplasm. Inside the “body”, the spines are connected. The end result is something that looks like a microscopic sea urchin.

Acantharia live in the upper regions of the oceans where they deposit their strontium sulfate skeletons. Presumably, these skeletons are protected from dissolution somehow, perhaps with an organic coating as the radiolarian Sphaerozoum punctatumdoes, described in the next section. When Acantharia die and sink, the protection of the strontium sulfate is lost, exposing the strontium sulfate to the open water, resulting in dissolution. They are populous enough that they are an important part of the strontium cycle in the oceans (which also includes river and hydrothermal vent input), taking strontium from the surface and delivering it to depths of up to 900 m, where most have completely dissolved.14,15

Are there Acantharia in reef aquaria? I don’t know. In aquaria that use natural seawater they might be seeded into the aquarium every time there is a water change. If there are appreciable numbers in some aquaria, then they might well provide a significant sink for strontium in those aquaria. In fact, they could cause rapid depletion of strontium. In other aquaria, for example those that use heavy skimming and artificial salt water, the likelihood that they are present in important numbers is likely much smaller. This potential difference between aquaria is one of many ways that the strontium balance may vary between different aquaria.

Organisms That Use Strontium: Radiolaria​

Certain species of radiolaria also use strontium sulfate, despite having silica skeletons. The radiolarian Sphaerozoum punctatum, for example, release flagellated swarmers during reproduction which contain crystals of strontium sulfate (celestite).17-19 These crystals are deposited inside a cytoplasmic vacuole, and have a 50-100 nm thick coating of organic material on it. This coating may reduce the likelihood of dissolution of the celestite, and may be a clue as to how the Acantharia keep their strontium sulfate spines from dissolving. What purpose these crystals serve to the S. punctatum is unknown, but it may be an antipredatory defense.

Organisms That Use Strontium: Gastropods​

Some gastropods, such as the sea slug Aplysia californica, have a clearly defined requirement for strontium in the water. When they are grown in artificial seawater lacking strontium, they develop deformed shells and statocysts (that lack a statolith).20 Statocysts are balance organs in many invertebrates. They consist of a fluid-filled sac containing statoliths that stimulate sensory cells and help indicate position when the animal moves. Statoliths themselves are small solid granules, and are made largely of calcium carbonate in Aplysia californica.

These organisms are quite sensitive to reductions in strontium, with a drop of only 1 ppm causing a detectable difference in development. For this organism there is a critical window of strontium exposure around day 4 of its life. Strontium added after that point cannot make up for the poorly developed statolith, which causes erratic swimming.

How exactly the strontium is used in the deposition of shells and the statolith is not known, but it is apparently somehow related to calcification.21 The statoliths of A. californica raised in normal seawater have been shown to contain elevated strontium.22 In the absence of strontium, the calcification is decreased by 80%. At low strontium levels, calcification was not significantly reduced, but the shell and statolith were still defective. These researchers concluded “Although the role of strontium in embryonic calcification of A. californica remains enigmatic, these data suggest that strontium affects a highly discrete regulatory component because these more general indicators of calcification and differentiation are unaffected by its absence.”

Organisms That Use Strontium: Cephalopods​

As in Aplysia californica, strontium appears to be important to the development of at least 7 species of cephalopod.23,24 In all of these, the aragonite statolith develops properly in artificial seawater containing 8 ppm strontium, but not in artificial seawater from which strontium is absent. The end result for cephalopods raised in seawater lacking strontium is uncontrolled swimming due to the poor statolith development. For cuttlefish ( Sepia officinalis ) the cuttlebone also develops improperly in the absence of strontium.

Well, I LOVE cuttlefish!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, I LOVE cuttlefish!

Perfect. Problem solved! lol

 

[abf]

Oceamo appears to be UK, etc. only. How is everyone ordering for the US?

 

[eggie]

Oceamo appears to be UK, etc. only. How is everyone ordering for the US?

Thru Reef Moonshiners web store
Test are mail and collected in Texas,USA and then ship to UK in batches

 

[abf]

Thru Reef Moonshiners web store
Test are mail and collected in Texas,USA and then ship to UK in batches

Awesome, thanks!

 

[fftfk]

I need some of those creatures because apparently my strontium is high :)

Lol - I found this thread because my strontium is listed as critically high but the test gives you no idea how to lower it!

 

[rishma]

I ignored it….

No worries

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Lol - I found this thread because my strontium is listed as critically high but the test gives you no idea how to lower it!

Yes, ignore it but also don’t dose it. Water change and ongoing calcification are ways to lower it.

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

The issue is more complicated than a simple number as some trace elements come in many chemical forms with different bioavailability.

I also believe the Moonshiners recommends dosing some useless elements, but none of their users will know that unless they experiment by not following the full plan.

This has troubled me for some time, and I would like to get you take on the subject.

When it comes to formulating synthetic seawater, do you think the forms of important bioactive trace elements are generally known? Is there some generally accepted standard that exists?

In the back of my mind I’m wondering if a situation exists where our sea salts may not have the optimum forms, and when we add new seawater it actually takes time for some of the critical trace elements to convert into more biologically useful forms.

Going a step further, I’m wondering if these suboptimal forms can initially have some negative effect if they were to exist.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The forms of trace elements in the ocean are known. The forms in a salt mix may be chosen for solubility as opposed to matching the forms in the ocean. Iron is a good example, where ferric iron dominates in the ocean but ferrous iron is likely used in salt mixes.

The binding of organics to many trace elements is a big factor in toxicity and bioavailability.