Ideal Alk level relative to nitrates (nutrients)

[Lovefish77]

Happy Friday everyone!
Soooo phosphate came up at 21ppb which means 0.06ppm. So N/P ratio (if you believe in such a thing) comes to about 16.
Any thoughts?
Here is a pic of the colony today as it was shedding some mucus

 

[Lovefish77]

So just an update (as i cannot edit an existing post). Having confidence in my nutrient export i was a bit surprised that nitrates climbed to 1ppm, so i just cleaned my algae scrubber and found that one of the 2 LEDs blew up that explains why nitrates are starting to register
So for the time being i will leave the ATS scrubber with light on a single-side.

 

[jda]

There is no downside to keeping alk around 7. None. It works with natural levels, below natural levels (ultra low) or and also higher levels.

Burnt tips are real, but you really have to drive N and P BOTH below natural levels using media or chemicals. This has not been a huge deal since ZEO was fresh and people were getting adjusted. The basic issue is that the coral would calcify and lay down new skeleton super fast (which is what happens when N and P are low), but the organic tissue could not grow fast enough since it was growth limited with building blocks. Keep in mind that even N of .1 and P of 1-3 PPB was more than enough to keep this from happening -these are natural levels. Organic Carbon, GFO, LC, etc. can get you below these levels, so if you want to do this (and I see no reason why for nearly all folks) then keep your alk between 6 and 7 to slow down the calcification. This is the only type of burnt tips to worry about concerning alk, N and P... you can get other kinds from lighting, but that is another thread for another day.

If you are thinking... how do I get my alk that low since my salt is higher than that?, you can use acid to lower the alk in freshly mixed salt (not in the tank). Muriatic acid has a formula of Desired dKh drop * gallons * .123 is the MLs of Muriatic to use. You can also use citric acid and some others, but I don't know those formulas. Any of these drive the pH really low, so it takes a few extra days of oxygenation and aerating to drive off the co2 and get the pH back up. This is no problem and repeatable once you figure out your formula.

 

[Lovefish77]

There is no downside to keeping alk around 7. None. It works with natural levels, below natural levels (ultra low) or and also higher levels.

Burnt tips are real, but you really have to drive N and P BOTH below natural levels using media or chemicals. This has not been a huge deal since ZEO was fresh and people were getting adjusted. The basic issue is that the coral would calcify and lay down new skeleton super fast (which is what happens when N and P are low), but the organic tissue could not grow fast enough since it was growth limited with building blocks. Keep in mind that even N of .1 and P of 1-3 PPB was more than enough to keep this from happening -these are natural levels. Organic Carbon, GFO, LC, etc. can get you below these levels, so if you want to do this (and I see no reason why for nearly all folks) then keep your alk between 6 and 7 to slow down the calcification. This is the only type of burnt tips to worry about concerning alk, N and P... you can get other kinds from lighting, but that is another thread for another day.

If you are thinking... how do I get my alk that low since my salt is higher than that?, you can use acid to lower the alk in freshly mixed salt (not in the tank). Muriatic acid has a formula of Desired dKh drop * gallons * .123 is the MLs of Muriatic to use. You can also use citric acid and some others, but I don't know those formulas. Any of these drive the pH really low, so it takes a few extra days of oxygenation and aerating to drive off the co2 and get the pH back up. This is no problem and repeatable once you figure out your formula.

Thanks for your answer but i am honestly not sure what points you are trying to make?
Is low N and P good for coral calcification? Or not? Please elaborate.

Also a few points to add:
- My Alk is maintained by dosing and there is no need to dabble with muriatic acid really (i used to play with that a long time back when using very high alk salts).
- My question is simple; i just want to know the level of N and P that are good for the level of Alk i am running (7.7-8dkh). I am looking for tenured reefers who have played with N and P versus alk levels (like high nutrients and high alk OR low nutrients and low alk). I am looking for more like a trend or a healthy relationship between these two parameters either based on experience or research. But i doubt there will be research from natural reefs on this topic because NSW parameters are not exactly the same as the one we have in our tanks.
- I know that common knowledge is that low N and P helps calcification. But if you look at Sanjay's reef tank (500 gallons) he is running N like 30 ppm (drifting very far from NSW and yet having stunning results). In short, rules of NSW can be broken "successfully" by hobbyists. Also a lot of hobbyists stray away from zero N and Zero P because all sps will look very pale at that point and they shoot for 2-5ppm Nitrates. The reason (i think) they tell me about N and P to be at Zero is to get some margin of safety for new comers to the hobby especially that some test kits have a margin of error.

Having said that i need recommendation for a course of action. My tank has been plagued with extremely low N and P for so long and believe me i feed like 4 to 5 cubes of frozen food a day; i have 4 big tangs in my 75 gallon (yes you heard that right 4 tangs) and they are very thick and healthy plus a bunch of other fish. So lowering N and P is not my challenge it is raising them. Last time i tried to raise them using Randy's recipe of tree stump remover and raised N to 3ppm in like 5 days my SPS (non acro) all died.
So controlling nutrients is very easy to me as i built this system with lots of nutrient export mechanisms. Just to give you some sense i never ever use GFO or even carbon for that matter (and never felt the need to). When i add carbon polyps on sps will not get good extension. So i need recommendation on the balance of N and P vs alk - that is basically my quest from this thread.

This is my tank a few months back just to give you a sense

 

[Dlealrious]

I think there isnt any standard. Corals will adapt as long as you give them good stromg lighting and good flow. I ran my tank with .5 to 1 n03 and .009 to .0018 p04 and run around 700 800 to my top rocks. Colours where vibrant, ppl that come round always are amazed nutrients are so low and colours arent pale. I recently accidentally raised nutrients to 4 n03 and .12 p04 and main change is yellows more green and some acro which had white flesh is browning. Pe also isnt that great. My alk is 7.7 to 8 but has a .6 to .8 variance daily(have a khg now so can see changes)

 

[Lovefish77]

Some top down shots taken just now to give you a sense of the tank.

 

[Lovefish77]

I think there isnt any standard. Corals will adapt as long as you give them good stromg lighting and good flow. I ran my tank with .5 to 1 n03 and .009 to .0018 p04 and run around 700 800 to my top rocks. Colours where vibrant, ppl that come round always are amazed nutrients are so low and colours arent pale. I recently accidentally raised nutrients to 4 n03 and .12 p04 and main change is yellows more green and some acro which had white flesh is browning. Pe also isnt that great. My alk is 7.7 to 8 but has a .6 to .8 variance daily(have a khg now so can see changes)

Thanks for your feedback. But when you say you accidentally raised N to 4, how quickly did that change happen (days or weeks)? Apart from browning white flesh on acros, did they make it and eventually recovered? I am just fearful that once acros specifically miss a beat they start taking a dive south and never return to normal (that is my fear).
Once again thanks for your input.

 

[Uncle99]

Some top down shots taken just now to give you a sense of the tank.

I look at these pics and here’s my answer
The standard is that there’s no standard....tanks can be very, very different.
I would not touch anything and run at your current levels.
Very nice corals. Look great to me.

This 4 year old tank runs N at 5ppm and phosphate at .12ppm......
Always seek stability over level.
Let the corals adjust to your chemistry

 

[Dlealrious]

Thanks for your feedback. But when you say you accidentally raised N to 4, how quickly did that change happen (days or weeks)? Apart from browning white flesh on acros, did they make it and eventually recovered? I am just fearful that once acros specifically miss a beat they start taking a dive south and never return to normal (that is my fear).
Once again thanks for your input.

not 100% sure i dont test alot, think it was 2 weeks. I turned off my fuge and forgot about it. got my mate to do a icp as i saw the yellows go green and pe was down hill but as im pulling tank apart so thought its just instability also. No issues with any coral really to recover from, only slight changed. turned fuge on last weekend and running 14 hours a day will get him to test water next week and see if its down. I hate testing only test alk to make sure khg is correct.

 

[Lovefish77]

I look at these pics and here’s my answer
The standard is that there’s no standard....tanks can be very, very different.
I would not touch anything and run at your current levels.
Very nice corals. Look great to me.

This 4 year old tank runs N at 5ppm and phosphate at .12ppm......
Always seek stability over level.
Let the corals adjust to your chemistry

thanks for the kind words, great looking tank yourself as well.
So when you say leave things as they are, you mean leave N at zero? I just found today that once of the LEDs on the ATS scrubber blew up, shall i replace that to go back to zero N territory? Or leave it operating one sided (with lower nurtient exposrt capacity)? What about Red Sea AB+ dosing I started like two weeks ago? continue or cut back? So many questions, i hate this hobby lol

 

[Lovefish77]

not 100% sure i dont test alot, think it was 2 weeks. I turned off my fuge and forgot about it. got my mate to do a icp as i saw the yellows go green and pe was down hill but as im pulling tank apart so thought its just instability also. No issues with any coral really to recover from, only slight changed. turned fuge on last weekend and running 14 hours a day will get him to test water next week and see if its down. I hate testing only test alk to make sure khg is correct.

Lovely corals..WOW. My acro has this brown tips which is worrying me (algae growing on the used-to-be white tips).
You mentioned you are running what par? 700/800par?

 

[Uncle99]

thanks for the kind words, great looking tank yourself as well.
So when you say leave things as they are, you mean leave N at zero? I just found today that once of the LEDs on the ATS scrubber blew up, shall i replace that to go back to zero N territory? Or leave it operating one sided (with lower nurtient exposrt capacity)? What about Red Sea AB+ dosing I started like two weeks ago? continue or cut back? So many questions, i hate this hobby lol

No, zero nitrate is not a valid number. Corals need nitrate and phosphate. In addition, we want them in balance and stable.
For mixed systems nitrate in the 2-5ppm with phosphate at 0.03 - .1ppm.
I also carbon dose to increase the good bacteria’s, which eat the phosphate, then the corals eat the bacteria’s.
Corals easily process nitrate, but no so good at phosphate, but they can eat the bacteria, which, contains the phosphate they need.
I am a believer in the life needs five things, water, an energy source, carbon, nitrogen and phosphate.....and in balance.
When tanks mature 2+ years, higher levels of nutrients can be maintained.
I’ve run 5 year old tanks with 40ppm nitrates, but that would be a disaster in a young tank.

 

[Dlealrious]

Lovely corals..WOW. My acro has this brown tips which is worrying me (algae growing on the used-to-be white tips).
You mentioned you are running what par? 700/800par?

in display across the top corals yeah at peak. i run my lights at 100%, most get 400 lower down, its a shallow is tank 18'' tall, growout is t5 500 middle and falls away like normal.

 

[Paul Delapenha]

If you look at the right side of the colony you will see the white growing tips are slightly covered in brownish layer. I blew off some of the film on the left side with a turkey baster yesterday before taking the pics.
On your note of burnt tips, my salinity is stable at 1.025, refractometer calibrated with rodi (0 tds) regularly. Alk is fine like 7.8 to 8 dkh and has been in that range consistently. So not sure what is going on.

You should never calibrate you refractometer with ro water. There is a calibration solution for that.

 

[Joedubyk]

I maintain 7 alk
Lots of heavy feeding. 15 to 25 outage and .16 or so po4. I personally think most starve their corals

 

[1stNoel]

Red Sea AB+ the green liquid that looks like alien blood

I thought the same when I first saw it...

 

[salty joe]

If you want to raise nutrients, why not leave scrubber one sided as well shorten the time it's on?

 

[TexasTodd]

If you can grow algae, you're not at zero.

You don't have too much flow directly on it do you? I've had colonies grow into direct flow and start to get algae on the tips.

Did the tip issue start after you began adding AB+ and Acropower?

 

[Lovefish77]

If you want to raise nutrients, why not leave scrubber one sided as well shorten the time it's on?

That is the plan, i will leave it lit on one side from now and see where N will go.

 

[Lovefish77]

If you can grow algae, you're not at zero.

You don't have too much flow directly on it do you? I've had colonies grow into direct flow and start to get algae on the tips.

Did the tip issue start after you began adding AB+ and Acropower?

The wavemaker is blowing like 4" above it and to the right. Not blasting the colony at all.
I have been playing with acro power for a long time. The only new thing i have added to my arsenal is the Red Sea AB+, i am pulling back on AB+ to see what happens. BTW i was only dosing 1 ml a day..wayyyyyy lower than the recommended dose.