If its not CO2, then why low pH

[Biologic]

Make one of these (or buy it, I chose to make it.

Run it this way_____ doser pulls from ATO container. Pushes RO water into "device" device pushes saturated kalk into tank.

dose kalk As well as whatever else your using. But Max your kalk out first

my PH is sitting around 8.3 in a two bedroom apartment with three if not four people home (and breathing) at all times

Ah I love this. This is so much better than burning up my Tunze ATO pumps in kalkwasser solution.

 

[Rjmul]

Ah I love this. This is so much better than burning up my Tunze ATO pumps in kalkwasser solution.

Run it.

 

[Rjmul]

I think you're trying too hard when the solution was right in your hands

I'm digging all this discussion surrounding the idea that we SHOULD be chasing our PH, but co2 media is soo not the way.


Seems like a waste of time and money to me.

 

[capted]

Not so much chasing the numbers but more of how the hell is this meter going nuts but only when it's in my tank! HA. Just had to prove to myself I wasn't going nuts.. Ofcourse after wasting my money on 2 new probes, 1 new extra meter, tons of calibration fluid and time plus too much beer!!!

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

What salt are you using? What test kit for alk? I have also been reading up on CO2 as my tank is in a basement.
Alkalinity is usually measured as Total Alk but what is actually reacting is Carbonate and Bicarbonate. Its possible your alkalinity is truly much lower with respect to CO2

 

[Biologic]

I think you're trying too hard when the solution was right in your hands

I'm digging all this discussion surrounding the idea that we SHOULD be chasing our PH, but co2 media is soo not the way.


Seems like a waste of time and money to me.

ABSOLUTELY -- I don't disagree. pH and an arguably a stable alkalinity is the most critical factors in the tank. pH is the single most understated parameter. I can see the difference in growth between old fashion kalkwasser. I've done it with Potassium Hydroxide too. The hydroxides work. You can see the growth in weeks time. I am at a total standstill.

CO2 Scrubbers are inefficient --

I totally should preface this with I think CO2 scrubbers are REALLY INEFFICIENT for most tanks. A dumb investment.... Especially when you use a small BRS CO2 scrubber for a tank that's like 180 gallons, on a dual pump protein skimmer. You'll burn through media. Since this is a small AIO 28 gallon with a protein skimmer that uses a Maxi-Jet, I shouldn't burn through media very quickly. HOWEVER, I am seeing no effect at all, though ironically this skimmer is rated up to 70 gallons. A rare Deltec MCE 300, that's 15 years old, and produces great skim mate. Better than anything out there in its size and class.

I am using a CO2 Scrubber to rule out CO2 as an effect on my pH.

So we are down to --

>My pH probe are wrong, however unlikely, because I would see my ORP react to the scrubber as well, right?
>My alkalinity is off
>Both with Hanna and Salifert are wrong.
>My testing procedure is bad, and I am screwing up two test kits.
>Calcium Formate is acting strange?
>I have an acid producing bacteria in my tank
>I have mass decay in my tank, though my SPS colors and health is not suffering. Decent polyp extension. Otherwise happy.
>My CO2 scrubber needs time to break in? Is 24 hours enough time?
>Am I missing something?

Need to try --
>A new pH probe or method to test pH besides the Apex probe
>re-test Apex pH probe against a standard
>Aerating sample of water outside, with a pH probe to measure the change in pH. Along with a saltwater fresh mix control.

 

[Biologic]

What salt are you using? What test kit for alk? I have also been reading up on CO2 as my tank is in a basement.
Alkalinity is usually measured as Total Alk but what is actually reacting is Carbonate and Bicarbonate. Its possible your alkalinity is truly much lower with respect to CO2

Tropic Marin Pro Mix, and I've used AquaForrest. Same results of low pH. I mix at 1.027 SG. They measure out like 8.3 dKH around that SG. I keep my fresh mix in my living room. I live in a poorly insulated house. My windows suck.

 

[capted]

Just to let you know it took about 48hrs on my 125 gallon to see the scrubber cause a ph change. How are you checking your salinity?

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

@Randy Holmes-Farley might offer some suggestions

 

[Rjmul]

ABSOLUTELY -- I don't disagree. pH and an arguably a stable alkalinity is the most critical factors in the tank. pH is the single most understated parameter. I can see the difference in growth between old fashion kalkwasser. I've done it with Potassium Hydroxide too. The hydroxides work. You can see the growth in weeks time. I am at a total standstill.

CO2 Scrubbers are inefficient --

I totally should preface this with I think CO2 scrubbers are REALLY INEFFICIENT for most tanks. A dumb investment.... Especially when you use a small BRS CO2 scrubber for a tank that's like 180 gallons, on a dual pump protein skimmer. You'll burn through media. Since this is a small AIO 28 gallon with a protein skimmer that uses a Maxi-Jet, I shouldn't burn through media very quickly. HOWEVER, I am seeing no effect at all, though ironically this skimmer is rated up to 70 gallons. A rare Deltec MCE 300, that's 15 years old, and produces great skim mate. Better than anything out there in its size and class.

I am using a CO2 Scrubber to rule out CO2 as an effect on my pH.

So we are down to --

>My pH probe are wrong, however unlikely, because I would see my ORP react to the scrubber as well, right?
>My alkalinity is off
>Both with Hanna and Salifert are wrong.
>My testing procedure is bad, and I am screwing up two test kits.
>Calcium Formate is acting strange?
>I have an acid producing bacteria in my tank
>I have mass decay in my tank, though my SPS colors and health is not suffering. Decent polyp extension. Otherwise happy.
>My CO2 scrubber needs time to break in? Is 24 hours enough time?
>Am I missing something?

Need to try --
>A new pH probe or method to test pH besides the Apex probe
>re-test Apex pH probe against a standard
>Aerating sample of water outside, with a pH probe to measure the change in pH. Along with a saltwater fresh mix control.

Tropic Marin Pro Mix, and I've used AquaForrest. Same results of low pH. I mix at 1.027 SG. They measure out like 8.3 dKH around that SG. I keep my fresh mix in my living room. I live in a poorly insulated house. My windows suck.

The one and only time a man sees a shi**y window and smiles

 

[Biologic]

The one and only time a man sees a shi**y window and smiles

I'd love new windows personally, but I rather trade my AIO 28 gallon to a 180 peninsula. Priorities!

 

[Biologic]

Just to let you know it took about 48hrs on my 125 gallon to see the scrubber cause a ph change. How are you checking your salinity?

VEE GEE Salinity Refractometer

https://www.grainger.com/product/8CXU2?gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:MS:CSM-2295:TVRYAD:20501231&s_kwcid=AL!2966!10!79508581079382!4583108082723637&ef_id=7eeb4414ea4e13c5cbaa24b95fb48ad9:G:s&msclkid=7eeb4414ea4e13c5cbaa24b95fb48ad9&gclid=7eeb4414ea4e13c5cbaa24b95fb48ad9&gclsrc=3p.ds

I highly recommend this refractometer. Its very weighty and heavy in your hand. The scale is really easy to read.

Apex Salinity Probe (Recently Cleaned and Recalibrated (manual mode with TC 2.3%) very readings stable and repeatable.

 

[blasterman]

You lost me at safety issues with kalk. Huh?

I dose 1/2 tsp kalk per day at one time (morning) in my 20L crammed full of SPS. Since I'm also pH locked it does help growth. I keep it in a jug mixed at 1/2 teaspoon per 8oz so I can quickly add it with a plastic cup and move on. Takes 10 seconds. I tried dosers and drips and doing it my way at one time made zero frikken difference. The pH change isn't even close to bothering coral.

Only reason I dont dose more is that's the precipitate limit. I still have to supplement calcium and alk, but the pH boost from kalk is free.

Curious what happens when tank water is aerated outside.

 

[Biologic]

OK some fun pics.

 

[blasterman]

Also, CO2 scrubbers are on a constant losing battle with ambient gas levels. Your tank is constantly absorbing CO2 from the surface of the tank. Just because your skimmer is plumbed with a jar of sodium hydroxide pellets isn't going to change this.

 

[Biologic]

You lost me at safety issues with kalk. Huh?

I dose 1/2 tsp kalk per day at one time (morning) in my 20L crammed full of SPS. Since I'm also pH locked it does help growth. I keep it in a jug mixed at 1/2 teaspoon per 8oz so I can quickly add it with a plastic cup and move on. Takes 10 seconds. I tried dosers and drips and doing it my way at one time made zero frikken difference. The pH change isn't even close to bothering coral.

Only reason I dont dose more is that's the precipitate limit. I still have to supplement calcium and alk, but the pH boost from kalk is free.

Curious what happens when tank water is aerated outside.

Well, my issue is that I was using it in my ATO. I loved it, but its just not very precise way to dose kalkwassser. Evaporation issues cause huge spikes of alkalinity for me. Though I had better growth then despite alkalinity spikes.

I am thinking about using my Apex to dose a set limit of kalkwasser. Maybe 50% of what I normally evaporate throughout 24 hours. I don't want to affect salinity. It worked great in the winter. My pH was 8.4 all day and 7.9 at night. Maybe even I can have the apex dose at night....

 

[Biologic]

Also, CO2 scrubbers are on a constant losing battle with ambient gas levels. Your tank is constantly absorbing CO2 from the surface of the tank. Just because your skimmer is plumbed with a jar of sodium hydroxide pellets isn't going to change this.

Agree. I am just using the scrubber to rule out the CO2 issue. If I get a significant bump, then I know CO2 is an issue. Still brining my airline outside, didn't make a significant improvement. I know I could still be pulling CO2 through the surface of the water.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Well, my issue is that I was using it in my ATO. I loved it, but its just not very precise way to dose kalkwassser. Evaporation issues cause huge spikes of alkalinity for me. Though I had better growth then despite alkalinity spikes.

I am thinking about using my Apex to dose a set limit of kalkwasser. Maybe 50% of what I normally evaporate throughout 24 hours. I don't want to affect salinity. It worked great in the winter. My pH was 8.4 all day and 7.9 at night. Maybe even I can have the apex dose at night....

You are on the right track here. Dosing kalk in an ATO is problematic due to differences in evaporation with the seasons. Best to run it as a separate fixed dosing amount, set to slightly less than your minimum daily evaporation and let your ATO make up the difference in the dryer months.

The erlenmeyer flask with the stopper and 2 tubes, posted earlier, is a great idea for smaller tanks. Toss in a spin bar and set it on an inexpensive mixing plate from Amazon and you have a nice little kalk setup. Operate the mixing plate for a minute or 2 at least once a day, with a pause in dosing for settlement after the mixing.

Because you will still be limited by evaporation, you can make up the difference in consumption with All-For-Reef. Just like you make up the difference in evaporation in the drier months using your ATO.

Dennis

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since I stopped using kalkwasser a month ago as my primary method of calcium and alkalinity supplement due to safety concerns and limited ability to control the dose, my pH has been in the pits. 7.65 at night. Yes I've calibrated my probes, and checked them against some standard solutions. I am at a lost.

My sps have definitely stopped growing since I switched from kalkwasser. My alkalinity consumption has slowed down.

That pH drop is not unexpected.

The drop is pretty low, but it also may not be accurate.

Low pH is always caused by high CO2 in the water (if alk is normal) and usually that means high CO2 in teh home air (only other possibility is inadequate aeration).

If you want to use a two part instead of kalkwasser, you can get the same ph boost using a very high pH two part made from sodium hydroxide for the alk part.

This has more on CO2:

pH And The Reef Aquarium
http://www.reefedition.com/ph-and-the-reef-aquarium

from it:

The Aeration Test

Some of the possible causes of low pH listed above require an effort to diagnose. Problems 3 and 4 are quite common, and here is a way to distinguish them. Remove a cup of tank water and measure its pH. Then aerate it for an hour with an airstone using outside air. Its pH should rise if it is unusually low for the measured alkalinity (Figure 2). Then repeat the same experiment on a new cup of water using inside air. If its pH also rises, then the aquarium’s pH will rise simply with more aeration because it is only the aquarium that contains excess carbon dioxide. If the pH does not rise in the cup (or rises very little) when aerating with indoor air, then that air likely contains excess CO2, and more aeration with that same air will not solve the low pH problem (although aeration with fresher air should). Be careful implementing this test if the outside aeration test results in a large temperature change (more than 5°C or 10°F), because such changes alone impact pH measurements.

 

[Biologic]

That pH drop is not unexpected.

The drop is pretty low, but it also may not be accurate.

Agreed, so I am seeking out other methods to test pH. Any other suggestions? Why isn't there a pH titration test for aquaria? Put in a titration color indicator, and titrate with an acid, see the amount titrant used on a chart, there's a corresponding pH value.

Low pH is always caused by high CO2 in the water (if alk is normal) and usually that means high CO2 in teh home air (only other possibility is inadequate aeration).

This finally gives me a definitive answer, but can H+ addition from biotic process depress pH?

Since its CO2, I'd like to see if its atmospheric or something going on in the aquarium itself.

If you want to use a two part instead of kalkwasser, you can get the same ph boost using a very high pH two part made from sodium hydroxide for the alk part.

This is likely the direction I am going to go. Link to that recipe you made?

This has more on CO2:

pH And The Reef Aquarium
http://www.reefedition.com/ph-and-the-reef-aquarium

from it:

The Aeration Test

Some of the possible causes of low pH listed above require an effort to diagnose. Problems 3 and 4 are quite common, and here is a way to distinguish them. Remove a cup of tank water and measure its pH. Then aerate it for an hour with an airstone using outside air. Its pH should rise if it is unusually low for the measured alkalinity (Figure 2).

This is an interesting test and I need a portable pH probe to do this. Or at the very least a simple pH test kit.

Then repeat the same experiment on a new cup of water using inside air. If its pH also rises, then the aquarium’s pH will rise simply with more aeration because it is only the aquarium that contains excess carbon dioxide.

If this is the case, then a bigger skimmer could solve the pH issues. This is what I am trying to determine. Where is the CO2 coming from? From my air in my home dissolving into the top surface of the tank? At this point, I am sending the skimmer air line outside. Perhaps my skimmer air volume is not enough to overcome the surface area of the water.

I've thought about covering the entire surface of the tank with plastic wrap. This is easily accomplished with an 28 gallon AIO. This is all practice for my much larger tank, which if I am having trouble with a small tank, a larger tank will have bigger pH issues.

If the pH does not rise in the cup (or rises very little) when aerating with indoor air, then that air likely contains excess CO2, and more aeration with that same air will not solve the low pH problem (although aeration with fresher air should).

Running my airline outside isn't helping. Though it could be that there's not enough air to overcome the surface area of the water, and its absorbing through the surface layer.

Be careful implementing this test if the outside aeration test results in a large temperature change (more than 5°C or 10°F), because such changes alone impact pH measurements.

Good advice on temperature.