Indonesia Situation

[Sharvey103]

Thank you for sharing these links.

 

[Peng]

Aussie acropora - wild, expensive, come in very pastel and beautiful colors but will brown out fast, hard to keep, very limited in variety.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

At play here is that these governments have banned exports, including cultured corals, with no basis in reality regarding sustainability and the impact on livelihoods worldwide, IMO.

^ this

Same thing that Dave with WSI said. IMO this is extremist environmentalism pushing a strict adherence to the COP23 agenda that draws a hard line regardless of the actual science and facts in order to make everyone who doesn't fully understand things feel great about saving the world.

Oh, but commercial overfishing that screws up the food web and allows algae to take over where it shouldn't and kill the corals off, that's OK. Because they have high paid lobbyists and people like tasty fish. << THIS is the real problem. Do some research on this and you'll realize that there's an entire industry ready to explode for commercial in-land aquaculture because we're stripping the ocean of all the protein (fish) and that is what is doing the real long-term damage.

 

[Rispa]

Let's start making a change. Let's all commit to telling 1 person about how harmful these bans and the fishing industry is.

 

[danreefman]

You guys get all worked up over this. Just take it for what it is, and evolve. Its bound to happen at one point in time.

I'm all good with making aquaculture the only way. Makes it more of a hunt/challenge to find stuff. Keeps it more interesting.

Prices should go up. Alot. People might think twice before they buy these animals only to kill them. (I know, you didn't intend death.

Maybe vendors will have a hard time. But that's all part of business.

We need more people that care about the lives than how much money is to be made from this hobby. Not pointing my finger. Just stating what I see in this hobby, and the world around me.

When things evolve around money they get twisted. And if you ask me this hobby revolves around money.

For whatever reason they are stopping. Its okay. For the people that lose there jobs. Sorry, hope you planned for it.

Sorry if this seems harsh. I just say it how I see it.

 

[gcarroll]

IMO this is extremist environmentalism pushing a strict adherence to the COP23 agenda that draws a hard line regardless of the actual science and facts in order to make everyone who doesn't fully understand things feel great about saving the world.

IMHO, That's like real tin foil hat stuff there! I think those in power in Indo could care less.

 

[shred5]

Here is the issues once there is no wild collection of fish and coral they will come after the hobby.
They tried once already. There was a proposal that would require you to have a permit and only could keep these corals they you had prior to permit. No new purchasing of these corals, no aqcuaculture or trading.
The stupid part is aqauculture would be illegal and the only ones who could acquire these coral were university and labs.
I had the proposal bookmarked through NOAA but the link is now gone.
If I remember right it was around 100 corals and some very key corals in the hobby.
The big problem was we cant tell the difference between most corals so keeping other corals not on the list would not be possible.
This extreeme stuff will pop up again someday.

 

[danreefman]

I think you should have a permit.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

All well and good for folks to get on their soap box when they have not been there and done the work to know the real situation. Easy enough to say, oh well, too bad, you'll adapt. I have set up mariculture farms in several locations, worked with the locals, took the time to know their issues and culture. With all due respect, unless you have you don't know what you're talking about. The folks that do this work on these small islands often have no other means of income. The propagation of corals is set up by guys like me to indeed be sustainable and quickly have no impact on wild populations. In the areas I've set up these farms there are enough corals in one lagoon, as far as the eye can see in every direction, to supply the worldwide coral trade for probably 20+ years if it were just harvested and never cultured-thats just in one relatively small lagoon. Think of it being done cultured and sustainably, and also how many thousands of such lagoons exist. To say you are glad it's shutting down or that this is needed to save the reefs or planet, with all due respect is nonsense and ignorant. So, tell the poor locals tough luck, the ones that relied on the coral trade to survive that now will go out and do whatever they must to provide for themselves and their families, maybe something that is destructive to the reef. You see, we taught them that the reef in their backyard was valuable and so they respected it just a bit more. I've been intimately involved in aquaculture for 18+ years and in this trade since 1965. Money is not the problem, stupidity is. Shutting down the worldwide trade in corals affects many thousands of people. The hobbyist with corals in his tank that is growing them and selling them is great, but don't lose sight of all the folks involved that got those corals into that hobbyists hands and when no more new genetics are available lets see what happens.

But I have fallen into the trap of responding to nonsense, this was intended as an info thread not a PC debate thread. But now that it has fallen into such, carry on with the chatter.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I think you should have a permit.

I actually agree with this, but maybe for a different reason.

To be able to collect, transport within the country of origin, and to export, licenses and permits are required. To be able to import, licenses, permits, and inspections are required. All this is fee based and costly. If violations are made along the way fines and prison time follow. Yes, folks have gone to federal prison violating laws regarding importation of corals. Corals are considered endangered animals. HOWEVER, once those very same corals arrive here, any and every ignorant fool can sell, buy, transport, kill them with no regulations what so ever. Seems a bit lopsided, regulations and ramifications galore on the acquisition side, no one cares on the husbandry side once imported.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

You are welcome to make the journey and tell these kids that sustainable aquaculture is all about evil money, they'd probably agree with you. Just watch yourself though, cannibalism is still around

 

[shred5]

All well and good for folks to get on their soap box when they have not been there and done the work to know the real situation. Easy enough to say, oh well, too bad, you'll adapt. I have set up mariculture farms in several locations, worked with the locals, took the time to know their issues and culture. With all due respect, unless you have you don't know what you're talking about. The folks that do this work on these small islands often have no other means of income. The propagation of corals is set up by guys like me to indeed be sustainable and quickly have no impact on wild populations. In the areas I've set up these farms there are enough corals in one lagoon, as far as the eye can see in every direction, to supply the worldwide coral trade for probably 20+ years if it were just harvested and never cultured-thats just in one relatively small lagoon. Think of it being done cultured and sustainably, and also how many thousands of such lagoons exist. To say you are glad it's shutting down or that this is needed to save the reefs or planet, with all due respect is nonsense and ignorant. So, tell the poor locals tough luck, the ones that relied on the coral trade to survive that now will go out and do whatever they must to provide for themselves and their families, maybe something that is destructive to the reef. You see, we taught them that the reef in their backyard was valuable and so they respected it just a bit more. I've been intimately involved in aquaculture for 18+ years and in this trade since 1965. Money is not the problem, stupidity is. Shutting down the worldwide trade in corals affects many thousands of people. The hobbyist with corals in his tank that is growing them and selling them is great, but don't lose sight of all the folks involved that got those corals into that hobbyists hands and when no more new genetics are available lets see what happens.

But I have fallen into the trap of responding to nonsense, this was intended as an info thread not a PC debate thread. But now that it has fallen into such, carry on with the chatter.

Sad part is so many people in the hobby do not understand, they do not get the good that is done by collecting coral responsibly..

It is even worse on the fish side because so many think you just can automatically breed all these fish because they do not understand breeding. They think this is like the fresh water hobby.
I am all for regulating or even banning the collection if something is truly endangered.

The real problem like I said earlier is the bans have stopped mariculture/aquaculture corals in some areas. This makes no sense and I would like to see people like the person above justify this.

Personally if someone feels this strongly then why are they in the hobby? I would bet they do not have all aqaucultured, tank raised or tank bred fish and coral.

 

[Ric365]

well this can happens coz our minister Susi Pudji Astuti banned all exporting coral but she still give permission for fish, actually as a reefer.. its not gonna be a good news actually for us too as a reefer.. we'll see until 2019 is it our country have a new president or not? if its not i think she still became a minister and the bann can be extend

 

[Lifelongaquaria]

Thank you for keeping us informed. I truly believe the very future of our planet being inhabitable will depend on the coral farmers and advanced propagation. It is believed 75% of life in the ocean starts in reefs. At the current rate of loss in the wild I see it as the only viable means to save the planetary nursery and filter which we all depend on for life. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

My comments are not directed at any one person, I've heard the same stuff for many years. In recent years the rumble gets louder as a segment of folks feel the planet in imminent danger of collapse. What they do not often realize is the coral trade can help save what they feel is slipping away, if given a chance and managed correctly.

 

[Fudsey]

What I don't understand is that coral farmers are actually helping to save the reefs and these zealots have no idea that banning the coral trade is actually do more harm than good. Every piece that comes out of the farms is being done sustainably to make sure that they can continue their trade. If not, they know they will not be able to continiue

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

An Indonesian coral farm:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oji074dk2d3djw8/Indonesia Coral Farms.m4v?dl=0

 

[Fudsey]

An Indonesian coral farm:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oji074dk2d3djw8/Indonesia Coral Farms.m4v?dl=0

One of the best vids right there

 

[danreefman]

Sorry to detour your thread.

To make things simple the way I see them.
I wanted to buy a parrot a while ago. We talked to a store. They said, " after we go through like 6 months of training we could than buy the bird."
It really made me think twice and I didn't go through with it. I didn't have the passion for it.

Reef is different? I was so surprised when I walked into a fish store and I could take the living tank home with no certification.

Your second post after mine, was more along the lines of what I meant.

I see your passion. And deffinatly not pointing my finger at you. Just I see a lot of ridiculousness in this hobby.