Instant Tank Cycle

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Rabidwolf

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Ok just tested for Ammonia and Nitrate, not bothering with Nitrite as I'm just looking for either end of the cycle and proven recently it's either not started or completed.
0 for Ammonia but a slight tint on the Nitrate about 0.5.
Pretty certain it's cycled but will continue to monitor.

Added a fish earlier so will update with any significant changes or when I achieve success.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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hey can you post us pics of the rock just to tie it all together


curious if they show any nitrifier associates easily seen:
-coralline anywhere
-pods, starts, sponges adhered
-any fanworms, little dotted spirorbids attached and fanned out will indicate a completed cycle
-any growths of whispy algae or colonizers from being underwater compared to on a shelf dry white base rock
-any pigmenting, our structures change in color over time underwater, they alter color bases

the tanks the rock came from at the lfs leave clues too. pod shells laying around. ophiuroid micro stars crawling around the base. any type of holding vat that has another live animal in it of any time...all these are no-test cycle verifiers given any decent knowledge of time underwater.

*even dry white base rock can be 100% cycled, no visual indicators, if the LFS simply kept them in a water vat of sw. not all rocks can be visually assessed, but the ones with associations in place sure can. maybe yours w show details not sure
 
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Rabidwolf

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The rock is in the sump, but it's from this tank with and all the same rock. Do you need pics of the actual rock?

20190612_192521.jpg
 

Lasse

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FYI - nitrite in the water will give a false reading of nitrate. I´ll gues that you will have a fast rising of what you think is nitrate but that´s indeed is nitrite. Test nitrite in order to be sure that it is a real nitrate you read.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Rabidwolf

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FYI - nitrite in the water will give a false reading of nitrate. I´ll gues that you will have a fast rising of what you think is nitrate but that´s indeed is nitrite. Test nitrite in order to be sure that it is a real nitrate you read.

Sincerely Lasse
Ok
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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as soon as my left eye beheld that crusty rocky drain wall, group B was ascertained before I could glance right heh

that's how I like my reefs. you have to carve out a viewing window to see in. I miss the 90s and I strive for coralline that good nowadays but cannot get/I think its my leds.

as of right now I'm making an update on page one of the cycling thread that says cycle umpire collection

your picture features just about every visual benthic verifier.
 
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BeejReef

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as soon as my left eye beheld that crusty rock structure, group B was ascertained before I could glance right heh

that's how I like my reefs. you have to carve out a viewing window to see in. I miss the 90s and I strive for coralline that good nowadays but cannot get/I think its my leds.

as of right now I'm making an update on page one of the cycling thread that says cycle umpire collection

your picture features just about every visual benthic verifier.
Is that green coraline? I thought its existence was a fairy tale lullaby people with turf algae cried themselves to sleep with ;Watching
 

taricha

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Is that green coraline? I thought its existence was a fairy tale lullaby people with turf algae cried themselves to sleep with ;Watching
Green coralline is real and it's a different organism. Not just a coralline that got confused or sick.

Under microscope you can see a different growth pattern / structure.
 

Lasse

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Green coralline is real and it's a different organism. Not just a coralline that got confused or sick.

Under microscope you can see a different growth pattern / structure.
I have brown coraline too

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Rabidwolf

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This morning's tests Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate 0. Not sure what's happened to slight tint of Nitrate I got last night.

I like Coraline Algae but sometimes it gets out of control and starts completely covering zoas or new frag plugs to the point they can't grow.
 
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Lasse

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Lasse, such an innovator, inventing new colors of coraline algae!
I´ll try to take some pictures of them this evening - they are on my glass and rather alike the green ones - but more brown (maybe du to 0.15 in PO4 :) :)). They are very hard and attaching nearly impossible to clean the glass.

Sincerely Lasse
 

MnFish1

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brandon429, I'm afraid I don't understand your post.

Simply put, a "cycled" tank is a tank that has the capacity to convert ammonia into nitrate. You seem to propose that we take it on faith that this capacity exists because the rock is "live". I propose a chemical test to verify this. You propose to instead, "trust"?

I suggest an ammonia dose followed by a series of ammonia tests. If the tank is cycled this will clearly show it.
IMO. - There is no way the tank isnt cycled (if he used cycled live rock) - thats the key. Its not the water that cycles - its the rock etc - that harbor bacteria. Assuming the other tank was cycled - the new tank is cycled. Likewise - lets say you had a tank with an HOB filter alone - and it was cycled - you went through the whole process. If you take that filter to a new tank. the new tank will be cycled - there I no reason to 'test it'
 

EMeyer

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IMO. - There is no way the tank isnt cycled (if he used cycled live rock) - thats the key. Its not the water that cycles - its the rock etc - that harbor bacteria. Assuming the other tank was cycled - the new tank is cycled. Likewise - lets say you had a tank with an HOB filter alone - and it was cycled - you went through the whole process. If you take that filter to a new tank. the new tank will be cycled - there I no reason to 'test it'
Oh, sure. I don't disagree at all that transferring live rock from one tank to another should in principle avoid cycling. Absolutely, the bacteria should remain viable and resume processing nutrients as soon as placed in the new tank. I don't think theres been any disagreement about that in this thread, has there?

However, if you don't test for the ability to process nutrients you don't know the tank can process nutrients. Its really that simple. You may assume it can process them. You may trust or believe it can process them. But without any evidence, you don't know.

Its like I'm advocating checking salinity and people are telling me "no, I just know my salinity is right"
 

brandon429

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but its different than salinity :) cuz we have biomarkers for what you want to test, macro level ones that always indicate the micro level ones

Your argument is made stronger if you cite the ability for trickery such as dosing antibiotic meds correctly to render the rock neutral, and then selling it full coralline. That really could cause the trick outcome, but nobody takes time to do that, and microbiologists know it takes exactly that to make wet rock not full of bacteria.

even if you are buying new live rock from the pet store, there are visual indicators in the holding vat, and the rock, that allow you to clue it. this is why we keep making the calls correct and nobody's fish are dying.

you can also rely on the known verbal history of rocks as told to you by pet stores by and large. Its just really not likely you'll be lied to regarding the nature of live rock, so that you don't have to dose ammonia to animals who only want to excrete it and be away from it. it burns them, in the face.

we have biomarkers beyond coralline to assess, adhered fanworms seal the deal 1000% undebated. if you have fanworms that are open, the cycled condition is confirmed for whatever they're attached to. teeming with pods, another example. Pigments such as coralline, textures such as rough/scaly/slimy indicating biofilms, all non testing options the creative can employ.

But, with todays painted coralline rock options, in the absence of any biomarker other than coralline, and with no confirmed submersion history (never encountered the two conditions in 21 yrs reefing) then its ok to dose ammonia.

Ammonia doesn't kill or stress coralline or suspect coralline that much, it stresses pods, worms, fish that might be hiding inside, sponges, fanworms, etc

as soon as someone gets a .25 then all kinds of variation follows with purchases, dosers, hesitation etc.

I'm for actually not testing on purpose, and using biology instead. What ammonia will do is the most predictable param in all of reefing, such that we only need pics and a brief history of the rocks to call what it will do.

Until seneye represents all the readings we see, we can do better eyeballing it
 
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brandon429

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cycling with your eyes only. nose occasionally.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

we refuse testing in that thread largely because it lies so much. we want the big tie in between macro and microbiology to be how people cycle, move, transfer, upgrade, downgrade, a reef tank, that way they command when a cycle occurs or not. We want them to undertake cycling as an option, something they'll opt into or out of based on designs at hand- in order to produce biologically bulletproof reefs.

we think using testing alone isn't producing bulletproof reefs and its making cycling progress for our hobby stuck since 1996.



 
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brandon429

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none of this is to just break rules or advocate chemistry anarchy

its to address a massive shortcoming in testing, and the impacts of hesitation on our tanks. When we look at the patterns of loss posted in threads in various forums, I see a recurring theme of now knowing what bacteria tolerate + never taking command over any reef setting.

we find conversely that when those two traits are reversed, we can command coral to grow in any container we want without issues. heres one we intercepted/ don't dose ammonia to clearly live rocks
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/adding-crabs-and-corals-before-cycle-is-done.613229/
 
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MnFish1

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Oh, sure. I don't disagree at all that transferring live rock from one tank to another should in principle avoid cycling. Absolutely, the bacteria should remain viable and resume processing nutrients as soon as placed in the new tank. I don't think theres been any disagreement about that in this thread, has there?

However, if you don't test for the ability to process nutrients you don't know the tank can process nutrients. Its really that simple. You may assume it can process them. You may trust or believe it can process them. But without any evidence, you don't know.

Its like I'm advocating checking salinity and people are telling me "no, I just know my salinity is right"
Doesn't the problem come in when the person doing the testing gets the 'common' .25 ppm ammonia level? Then what - ignore it - dose bacteria etc etc. IMHO - testing is not done entirely appropriately in this hobby. In medicine it used to be that people got 'routine blood tests' with every physical. What researchers have found is that those tests were not helpful in finding 'rare problems' if the person was having no symptoms - but instead 'false positive' tests resulted in more test more expense and perhaps risks from those further tests. So now testing is done more based on 'problems' rather than prophylaxis.

IMO - and this will sound like heresy - I dont believe in testing every day or even week - unless there is a reason to do so. Now - if something changes or I think I might have made an error etc - I will test - or if im having to wipe algae off the glass - or something else.

BTW - If I test my salinity - and nothing changes - I do know its right.....:). Some people check their salinity every day.... I do not.
 

brandon429

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Came across another skip cycle tank
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-setup-cycling-tank-multiple-questions.615362/

Am not posting that to rehash anything/not move on it's just to show how often we need to be able to define where a cycle is at and move the heck on. People routinely want to know when can I start? When is go time



Strong skip cyclers are primed ready for algae battle, they already believe the bacteria won't be their weak spot when it gets time for tank battle. Trusting bac causes deliberate action later, crucially, I've found.
 
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