Instant Tank Cycle

[brandon429]

A full on ammonia test misread, in a skip cycle aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-ammonia.615301/page-5#post-6182991

these are knocked out like clockwork using reliable tenets of wet surface microbiology

It's also a fine example of 99% disagreeing with me-the ideal gradient to do work in

this aquarium has multiple biomarkers for zero ammonia, though that's largely unfactored among posters. All his corals look ok in 8ppm, hmm. No smell, no cloud. No death of animals, 8 ppm claimed and believed by most.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-presence-what-next.620931/#post-6213731
calling ammonia presence using biomarkers, not test kits

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cant-keep-ammonia-up-for-cycling.621531/#post-6219582

 

[brandon429]

this was a decent call here. we used known submersion history, visual benthic cues for proof of cycling.

Adding crabs and corals before cycle is done

Hey guys, i was wondering if adding a handful of crabs and some corals would help keep the tank healthy and ballanced before my cycle is complete. Cant seem to find a disscussion on this yet. So what are your thoughts? Earliest i can add it in would be about the end of the 2nd week into my...

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7 pages of doubt. Everyone mixing advice, he’s not cycled since an ammonia badge said so.

Dr Tim’s Cycle

Looks like it. As we said, when it happens, it happens overnight. Glad to see it is complete!

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On page seven, since he’s cycled, he takes that new cycled tank and transfers all material to a new tank overnite and then adds two tangs. If the crowd is right, those tangs die today due to being in an uncycled tank

Dr Tim’s Cycle

Looks like it. As we said, when it happens, it happens overnight. Glad to see it is complete!

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The reasons we knew he was cycled on page one is due to rules of submersion timing, what we use to call a cycle closed without testing.

 

[EMeyer]

IMHO - testing is not done entirely appropriately in this hobby.

Oh, I definitely agree with this statement (although I think you meant it a different way). If testing were done appropriately (i.e. with blanks and standards) it wouldnt lead to all the bad readings we get. e.g. the false 0.25 ppm ammonia. These problems are all pretty easily avoidable.

Looking for common ground, I guess I can agree that its better to not test regularly, rather than making frequent inaccurate measurements and changing things in response

Thinking back on my own development in the hobby, I've experienced both of these. I've had successful tanks that I didnt test and tanks that suffered because I reacted to inaccurate tests. These days, my preference is to test accurately and react slowly.

 

[brandon429]

Le, bump of tasteful timing.

Testing, def not required to predict the microbiome that reduces ammonia given # days underwater, that’s a rather predictable microbiome


Doubts=We can round up n post fresh examples if req’d, we will not run low on linkable work. I made sure to add some over last few months.

All aquariums set up in a home or not a positive pressure microbiology lab using common arrangements amass the same general biomass within 30 days for a certain measured ability, ammonia nitrification, and that’s neat. *not claiming the bacterial constituents are the exact same tank to tank, just that their collective measure is always the same by day 30, free of charge we can cycle any aquarium without seeing param guesses about the test levels.

No cycle stalls, none fail to meet prediction. Any rock that has real coralline or a vermetid snail or a serupulid fanworm w red crown open on it is verifiably cycled, no ammonia test required (how long does coralline or a vermetid take to adhere vs aquatic bacteria)

We can follow up on any work link to see if their initial bioloading died or thrived

There are some things in microbiology you don’t have to pay someone to test, you can predict what will occur and by when.




Just for kicks I’ll back edit all the upcoming 2020 examples here’s too, we might can reach agreement on at least this matter given enough examples. Track this thread for a long time

 

[brandon429]

.50 ammonia

I’m fairly new to this hobby still, my tank is now 3 weeks old. today I checked the ammonia and it was at .50ppm from my understanding it shouldn’t be at that. What should I do to get that back to normal?

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an update for accountability. for my cycle calls/accountability.

2020 updates for cycling biology:

*visual cycling still holds, Ive been back editing work examples here for a year and no, not cherry picking, there are no dead tanks from false starts. nitrification clues abound in skip cycle tanks and we dont need ANY ammonia tester to work these problem threads.


why does this even matter? because we are seeing a rash lately of fish disease threads being confounded as free ammonia threads, and precious time is being lost assessing bac that are not missing, or weakened, and none of it is seneye prompting its 100% api and some salifert free ammonia posts.


being able to know when an aquarium will recycle or not controls how we can clean and intercept invasions, cycle hesitancy leads to total tank loss for many. we're about taking assertive lead, day 1.

 

[blasterman]

I'm with the guy who hasn't cycled since 2001. If I'm moving tanks I keep a shallow tupperware tray of crushed coral in established tank for awhile and then move the tray to new tank. Same concept as using established LR, but better since most of the bacteria live in substrate since it's more porous.

I've never cycled any of my SPS frag tanks, but started extremely conservatively with a small fish and let the tank slowly acclimate. Whats an ammonia test kit?

The vast majority of cycling problems are caused by adding too much live stock too quickly and spending too much time watching test kits rather than understanding the biology.

 

[brandon429]

Ive been shocked lately at the raw pattern of fully cycled tanks that present for ammonia control issues, instead of caring for fish so they don't die of common vectored pestilence. what makes them present is a dead fish that has been removed last week, and a stuck api ammonia reading they took today while all remaining fish act normally, the forum then begins advising on ways they lack bacteria and what bottle bac to add to remedy free ammonia/


the days that go by with living fish, before succumbing to gill flukes, are proof that ammonia is controlled by things we can see vs measure.

our hobby is so focused on free ammonia that we sometimes can't focus on the right moves at the right time, reef tanks don't permit free ammonia and even with dead fish wedged in rocks it never sustained at .25 on anyone's seneye, ever.

by not chasing ghosts we can aim work correctly

not everyone can afford seneye so visual cycling is a heckuva stand in.

knowing that a coralline-spotted system with no dead fish, rocks and sand can never be out of ammonia compliance makes us really free as reefers... we make less guess purchases, we save money.

 

[lilgrounchuck]

Set up my tank Friday. Placed a sizeable chunk of frozen brine shrimp into the filter sock to stop it messing up the tank.

Saturday PM Ammonia is 0

Saturday PM added another chunk of frozen brine shrimp different area of sump. Added seeded live rock from other tanks also.

Sunday PM Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0

Monday PM added a large Turbo snail and 2 Scarlet leg crabs. Also added some algae pellets for them to eat.

Tuesday AM Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0

Had tank lights on for 2 days brown algae growing on rock.

Is it possible to cycle this quick?

No, it’ll take some time for that stuff to start breaking down and ammonia to go up. It’s easier, faster (and doesn’t stink) to just dose ammonia into te tank.

 

[brandon429]

on pages 1- current
we cover the topic that rocks must cycle differently, based on whether or not they're already cycled when we bring them home.
adding ammonia to live rocks directly burns the animals we paid extra for, ammonia is for dry rock cycling.

skip cycle= how they run marine conventions. 500 reefs show up, skip cycle, and are ready day one till the convention stops running, even if it ran forever. a skip cycle is just as strong as a set cycle, because cycles can't degrade or get weaker unless you directly kill them with an antibiotic.

he moved live rocks into his tank, from a previously live source. what we debate here is if someone can tell a reef tank is cycled just by looking at it.

 

[lilgrounchuck]

on pages 1- current
we cover the topic that rocks must cycle differently, based on whether or not they're already cycled when we bring them home.
adding ammonia to live rocks directly burns the animals we paid extra for, ammonia is for dry rock cycling.

skip cycle= how they run marine conventions. 500 reefs show up, skip cycle, and are ready day one till the convention stops running, even if it ran forever. a skip cycle is just as strong as a set cycle, because cycles can't degrade or get weaker unless you directly kill them with an antibiotic.

he moved live rocks into his tank, from a previously live source.

I’ve also had great success with bottle bac to insta cycle. I just moved an established tank to a new tank, no cycle period, just moved all the rock over (new sand), and dumped livestock in. Zero issues. It. Didn’t skip a beat.

 

[Conrad Noto]

Set up my tank Friday. Placed a sizeable chunk of frozen brine shrimp into the filter sock to stop it messing up the tank.

Saturday PM Ammonia is 0

Saturday PM added another chunk of frozen brine shrimp different area of sump. Added seeded live rock from other tanks also.

Sunday PM Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0

Monday PM added a large Turbo snail and 2 Scarlet leg crabs. Also added some algae pellets for them to eat.

Tuesday AM Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0

Had tank lights on for 2 days brown algae growing on rock.

Is it possible to cycle this quick?

Cycle? Yes, however don't confuse cycled with it being seasoned/matured. Most bacteria is in rock, you added rock from other tank ( no die off like you'd have if shipped) You most likely cycled. I wouldn't be adding Nems, Corals or anything delicate too quick.

 

[mcshams]

@BeejReef states : How "cycled" is another matter that we don't often discuss on here. I know you understand, Rabidwolf. Just for the sake of the larger discussion... that doesn't mean that the tank is ready to be fully stocked with nine fish. It means there's enough ammonia processing material in it to process a certain amount.

@EMeyer states:
Simply put, a "cycled" tank is a tank that has the capacity to convert ammonia into nitrate. You seem to propose that we take it on faith that this capacity exists because the rock is "live". I propose a chemical test to verify this. You propose to instead, "trust"?

I suggest an ammonia dose followed by a series of ammonia tests. If the tank is cycled this will clearly show it.

Having read this entire post (and it IS fascinating @BeejReef !), also I think having read all of @brandon429 posts regarding this matter... I think the summation made by @BeejReef is the MOST important one of the cycled tank dilimma. That is that how 'cycled' a tank is based on the tank's ability to process ammonia waste. So ANY tank that is cycled, can be quickly UN-CYCLED if you triple the bioload as you would quickly produce more ammonia waste byproducts than the bacterial load can process properly.

Which brings me to @EMeyer 's point as devil's advocate. Unless we can ascertain an 'equivalence' of the amount of ammonia to test the tank's ability with to the amount of bioload we intend to add to the tank, we don't really get a measurement of anything valuable. So if I add a certain amount of ammonia, how many fish does that correspond to in regards to how many I can add to my tank? We know it can process ammonia, but I think that's a safe assumption based on the fact that the live rock was already processing ammonia when it was transferred...which is @brandon429 's point. Testing with ammonia doesn't verify however the type/quantity of fish we can add however...just that the rocks' bacteria is already doing what it had been doing.

Testing with ammonia is obviously the reefer's prerogative, but I can see where there is a strong argument for not needing the test if the live rock is clearly established, and that the mere transfer of rock to a new habitat would effectively produce a cycled tank. (for the bioload that it could sustain of course).

Let me just say one thing... I'm glad I've found this forum and am a part of it. I love all of your contributions to the love and science of reefing. The conversation is great, non-adversarial, and diplomatic. Thank you

 

[brandon429]

Thank you, I am confounded anyone could read this volume of web nerding and find it for what it is- an attempt to upend cycle rules and procedure so that one thing, just one crucial thing, in this hobby of never ending tech, can be trusted. Among all the tenets we teach now that will just reverse next decade can we trust any aspect of it won’t be reversing?

i want the answer to be yes, ammonia tracing does not require kits you have to pay for, your eyes can proof ammonia ability in the context of a reef tank picture.

and it’s nice of you not to be turned off by the discourse, you mentioned the ****classic****** reefing conundrum of ramp up time, meaning giving bac time to ‘adjust’ to changing bioloads. If it works like that, then all my claims are shot down. tanks will begin dying for sure, and they’ll report it in our work threads.

I’ll present here, wanting the harshest eval, what I feel to be proof that the opposite is in play vs what the masses think regarding surface area and bacteria ramp up. It does not occur


live rocks do not take on more bac to make up for more bioload, they’ve no room to add more bacteria *exposed* to wastewater.

before reading my case closed link consider this:

see this letter W


thats a cross section of live rock. Water flows through the V channels and thats where filter bac contact it


if you add more things to a V space

is that increasing or decreasing surface area and water contact


its decreasing


in every reef, always, it’s how surface area works. W’s can’t take on 4x bacteria for four more fish...due to vital space competition already in place (the cycle) and if they did, a V is still a V space that doesn’t add surface area.

to to make live rocks better filters, add more WWWW actual surface area or clean out existing pores and restore contact area- you cant increase filter efficiency by adding more bac. Things that are wet have all vital space used by bac, no sterile zones exist in a reef we know.


it turns out live rocks can instantly take on more bioload than you’ve ever given them, using mindstream to chart the *instant* removal of a tanks sandbed is a way to proof the claim. Thats massive surface area, the sand he pulls below

rocks take on essentially a much stronger bioload, instantly. reefs don’t use ramp up microbiology post-cycle...see the results. When I see coralline spotting on a rock, or hear that coralline-free rocks have been running fish for weeks, I know they’re fully able to filter and not partially able even without tests.

 

[brandon429]

Our mod, Daniel. Post #582 it’s a mindstream ammonia eval of a full instant sandbed removal.


the rocks instantly ran the bioload, tested to parts per billion before and after.
no change after removing all sand, instantly, rocks got no ramp up time

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

its simply clean that was a team effort, can you summarize some of the extra measures beyond sandbed surgery it took to wrestle that into compliance? First removed the sand bed about 90% of the sand removed... rinsed the sand really really well. The dinos then started to grow on the rocks.. i...

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Post #582

the other 34 pages are no- test 100% sandbed removals from reef aquariums making use of the rule of W.

we have in that thread half a million bucks of other peoples reef tank money proving the #s of live rock we use in the hobby is excessive, and it can carry peoples fish bioloading independent from surrounding surface area, which is redundant. what you do to the redundant surface area doesn’t matter. Rocks do not take on more bacteria to make up for removal of redundant, unneeded surface area they manage independently.

 

[brandon429]

Bump

cleared two more. Here’s one coming as soon as we get a pic.

AMMONIA RISING!

36 Gallon reef: No fish 1 CB 1 Anemone Shrimp 1 HC 1 Sally lightfoot 1 run of the mill purple anemone 1 urchin (which sadly is on his way out after all this trauma) 2 Hammerheads A few mushrooms Yesterday- May 16 Ammonia: 0.25 Ph: 7.8 Alk: 4 meq/L Sal: 1.024 N02: 0 No3: 0 Po4: 0.25 Mg: 1130...

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we will turn this thread into a skip cycle / visual cycle repository.

Ammonia spike in a 7 month old tank

IDK what is going on I've had an ammonia spike going on for over a week maybe 8 days. About three weeks ago I upgraded from the red sea max (130D) stock skimmer to a tunze 9001 that I still can't get tuned in correctly but that is another story/post. Also put in an "intank media basket". I...

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how to assess free ammonia in a reef tank: if you don’t have seneye or mindstream, don’t bother.

Ammonia- not going away

I finally got a RODI system. it is the RO buddie 4 stage system and I have a pre-filter system as well. The TDS reading is 0 and when I test the water it is ammonia free. My tank is 2 and half months old. I have minimal diatoms and cyano now. Now I am forming green circles on my glass, it is...

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[Wasabi]

I have cycled a tank in 3 days by dumping a full bottles of fritz 9 in the water . 3 days later I added 20 fish with no problems. Not one of the us a damsel or chromis.

 

[brandon429]

What we need is someone running a seneye meter during that, to see if fish were safe the whole time or just tolerated a burn.

i personally think bottle bac is that able, to keep free ammonia at bay below toxic levels, but the hobby doesn’t agree. They’d say all the fish were burned and barely survived. Your fish were barely able to withstand noncontrol of the most toxic compound in solution our tanks produce is what they’d say


Cleared this tank of free ammonia visually

Biological Filtration for Ammonium?

So I have had an issue in one tank recently where it is reading .25 ammonia and until recently I had been flipping out trying to fix it. Long story short it is a false positive due to ammonium that got introduced from regular non DI RO water use by mistake, I have since fixed the issue. Makes...

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[MnFish1]

What we need is someone running a seneye meter during that, to see if fish were safe the whole time or just tolerated a burn.

i personally think bottle bac is that able, to keep free ammonia at bay below toxic levels, but the hobby doesn’t agree. They’d say all the fish were burned and barely survived. Your fish were barely able to withstand noncontrol of the most toxic compound in solution our tanks produce is what they’d say

'The hobby' has been wrong before. In my experience - I have never had problems using bacteria in a bottle and adding fish immediately. I have also never left rock in buckets for months, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong - a cycle is when one merely adds some food or rock and waits for bacteria to develop 'naturally'. My opinion is that people that have problems with 'cycling' - are adding too many fish too quickly for the size of whatever aquarium they are using.

I know this is also heresy but I have never owned a nitrite or ammonia test kit.

 

[brandon429]

Cycling my first tank

Hello all just wanted to say hi and ask opinions on if my cycle is finished? Here are my readings and a picture of my tank. I am on day 22. I have a 20 gallon long. 20 lbs of dry rock and 20 lbs of live sand. I just installed my protein skimmer and waiting for the micro bubbles to stop. I have a...

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This is to continue the logged examples of visual cycling tanks

where we do not factor stated test levels


we factor sight details from the picture, benthic standouts that always take longer to set in vs cycling bacteria/organisms

specifically, we dont need a DNA analysis or any testing to cycle up a reef, there are visual markers I've been back editing into this thread for two years. Message any entrant to see how things fared long term.

we dont even need the visual markers now, updated cycling science (the free stuff, where we're not bound to retail purchases or test kits or expenditures to know things about a reef) now knows that to set rocks in water and wait 30 days also cycles, its tested on seneye more than once now and API too.

So to reduce the factors I'll need to know over the next two years to keep filling this thread w work, all we need to know is the # of days the tank had water in it. if its 30 or close, you're cycled.


Results from long term thread examples:

-you CAN tell if a reef is cycled in almost all cases by seeing a picture of it. Most reefs we see here, or new reefs to come, will have easily seen biomarkers that indicate the presence of a complete cycle for waste control, and its infallible. We havent lost any new tanks to the method, its totally reliable. I can more accurately diagnose any reef cycle off pics than the api levels provided, and so can you.


-you do NOT have to undergo tedious testing to validate or confirm a cycle, because ALL reefs cycles will complete at max 30 days wait even if you've messed up the initial doses of ammonia, or even withheld it altogether


-The retail industry wants your cash; they make money off you doubting bacteria, water bacteria in water



-The cheapest easiest cycle that cannot fail is the unassisted cycle: add water and rocks to a system, swirl the water 30 days, all natural contaminants fed the system and inoculated it, and you're cycled, and nobody's cycle takes longer than 30 days. Not one example in here needed past 1/3 of that time, and most here collected are total skip cycle transfers.

If we do not have anyone studying updated cycling science rules, retail control and command will take over the hobby and write all the rules for procedure, which will always lead back to a purchase somehow, a doubt, in what water bacteria do in water. here is one of the few proofs we have on the unassisted cycle

isn't it amazing this info is missing from every single cycling article written in reefing?

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Did the online calc indicate to use one mil in the tank for your gallonage

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read MSteven1's posts from this page


also discovered: though we've been trained to doubt cycles/be concerned of stalling/buy reinforcements, its become clear that online there are no examples of a failed cycle. Anyone who put water in a square box completed the cycle. Proof? post up one single example of a failed, incomplete or stalled cycle. You'll be posting an example of a completed cycle but someone using red sea or api test kits. It will never, ever, ever be digital ammonia testing confirming the stall.

we've been given FALSE consequence worry in the hobby, and as a result we buy and click thousands of times to prevent a condition that does not occur. A non cycled tank can't carry delicate marine life, they w die