cant keep ammonia up for cycling

James Matthews

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I have 100 gallon quarter cylinder tank, been cycling for almost 2 weeks. I have 30lbs of live rock and 80lbs of live sand, I add pure ammonia 5 drops for every 10 gallons and in 2 hours i was back down to .25ppm. Is this good or do I need to add more to keep it up during cyling?
 
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lapin

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I have 100 gallon quarter cylinder tank, been cycling for almost 2 weeks. I have 30lbs of live rock and 80lbs of live sand, I add pure ammonia 5 drops for every 10 gallons and in 2 hours i was back down to .25ppm. Is this good or do I need to add more to keep it up during cyling?
Your tank is cycled.
 

brandon429

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Dang it, your side draw is too fast. I could not thumb type the same response as fast ha

can you post a picture of your rocks James so we can see living details on em
 

brandon429

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Regarding the .25

Lots of fully cycled tanks show that with API, but never is it found when using seneye measurement, can't wait to see pics

Cycled tank on API= 80% show .25 20% show 0

Cycled tank measuring with seneye = no free ammonia in tenths lasting days, only titration makes bacteria look as bad seneye shows how fast they really are, and how truly hungry for ammonia a cycled tank is, by rule. All of em.
 
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brandon429

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This post ten years ago would turn into fifty pages of testing and counter testing and nobody agrees


as of today, can be closed matter in one sentence as L did not needing pics or to see the tester. Microbiology is progressing I might shed a digital tear yay

Sometimes people use life rock confusing it with true live rock, which has animals attached to it we can see, but in any case the wet pack sand is still a massive source of ready bac so it handles bioloading just fine/says it on the label too/ in case the rock was not true live skip cycle rock from a pet store. If it was true live rock, then with wet pack sand you had extra support.

Moving cycled rocks to a different tank never kills bacteria, if anything it will boost bac temporarily.

The testers bottom line we know not to factor any more, it was the movement down from a deeper color to the .25 that reveals bacteria. That's processing more bioload than your tank will see in any normal days running.
 
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brandon429

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dang that's clean and nice~

the breakdown my opinion: if that one purplest rock is true live plus the sand being wetpack, that is the source of the bac

*the other rocks may well be live, I could store rocks in a dark vat for 5 mos getting bac ready, take them out for sale as live rock, they'd be white like those but still filters.

what live animals are attached in there? true coralline is the best. it takes months to adhere, bac adhere in days / weeks. if the rocks came from a live rock vat with starfish, pods crawling around, some of the rocks have algae on them, that's all visually-verified ready rock. the bacteria don't die when they come home to your tank, and if they were producing ammonia v scrubbing it your testing would get purple, fast. pictures tell more about ammonia tracing than testing does unless seneye is being used.

next up is little white round fanworms, months to accrete onto the rock.

then sponges and motile pods, little waivers of algae or strands of various organisms associated with being underwater stand out. its fun to try and locate and prove the existence of bacteria without any testing whatsoever, those types of inclusions seal the deal can't wait to know if macro pics or inspection shows live animals.

that top purple rock could also be liferock previously dry, and the rest of the rock dry, that leaves room for the counter claim to state its not ready yet. so we have to hunt for tiny associated proofs to seal it up...
 
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James Matthews

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the purple one was a dry rock they put in a vat with other live rock to get bacteria on it, it had been in there for months started off white the rest were in a live rock tank with alot of other live rock circulating the water from all their tanks through it, as for live animals the only thing was in there was the little hitchhiker starfish. I had 3 in my tank from the rocks but I took them out to prevent them from producing more
 
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James Matthews

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I added 50 drops of pure ammonia to the tank and in 2 hours was back down to .25, oh and I also removed carbon from my filter to stop it from taking ammonia out. I will check when I get home to see if the ammonia is untraceable, nitrites were at 0ppm last night and nitrite were between 5 and 10 ppm. temp is 77f° and specific gravity on refractometer was 1.025. Should I keep adding ammonia till I get fish to keep the bacteria from starving?
 

brandon429

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no the bac are ready and would not starve if you stopped feeding for fifty years no exaggeration. once set, which they are, wet bacteria exposed to home air currents cannot starve they'll eat like pigs.

if you keep feeding them then they eat like triple pigs lol/ but that's algae feed. I'm now adding your thread to page one here on this cycling thread which explains what Lapin called above:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

we are trying to set a record for the most tank cycles umpired without ever using test kits. both live systems, and full dry ones using dr tims. no test.
because tanks cycle by a known timeframe and then behave the same regarding ammonia thereafter.
I have not seen any aquarium do something unpredictable with ammonia, not one ever in thirty years of keeping.

we demand independence from the subjectivity that is titration ammonia testing.
 
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EMeyer

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Consumption of ammonia is not proof of a nitrifying community. Lots of processes consume ammonia. You need consumption of ammonia AND accumulation of nitrate and or nitrite.

I recommend ignoring any hard-to-decipher suggestions you may receive that testing is unnecessary. If your tank converts ammonia into nitrate its cycled. Lacking that evidence you cannot know.

I predict your tank is cycled, but recommend testing to be sure.
 

brandon429

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Would you ignore 18 pages of tanks cycled using the method for a few years now all in one thread? I realize the answer is yes lol just wanted to point out the years long trend, easily ignored 100% yet it includes lengthy discussions from Randy in the chem forum about not testing for what you claim is fully required. We collected over twenty examples of false .25 api reads, in addition to the half mil search returns off google


At least the thread shows work, research, collection of others ideas, tests on actual tanks...and no cycle losses.


Without work threads, people can claim anything they want.

We collect threads where denitrification causes zero nitrate, if that or if test drift for nitrate is occurring, nitrate is unlinked to cycle endpoint measure. We built that whole thread and thousands of dollars of cycled tanks on opposite info than what you typed
 
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EMeyer

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If you could address my statement, in legible English, I will respond. I promise.

The only way to prove nitrification is occurring is to measure nitrification.
 

Dom

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The idea behind a tank cycle is to have an environment in the tank which is capable of processing ammonia. You don't want to keep your ammonia up. You want to create a condition where ammonia develops in the tank. Once you have an ammonia level, you want the tank to bring it down to ZERO without any intervention on your part. Once your ammonia and nitrites come down to zero (and your nitrates rise) your tank is cycled.

That you cannot maintain an ammonia level tells me your tank is cycled.
 

brandon429

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Here’s some more threadwork where we help E Meyer see how bac work without testing, using biological markers

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/instant-tank-cycle.612166/page-2
The claim made:
1. You cannot skip a cycle.
2. Proceeds to get linked years of skipped cycle tanks plus new ones and I’ll be back linking for him the next thirty months, the thread will never die. If a cycling tank dies, then EM is right. Time will tell
 
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brandon429

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Dom

You assume all api .25 are right, regardless of details about submersion, animals in tow, and massive oxidation of ammonia being ran each time he adds fifty drops in half a day, is that correct

Continuing the trend of commenting before reading, you are sure the several threads linked are all accurate .25 reads, even the five year tank one is that correct. For five years with corals and fish lol his test reads .25
 

EMeyer

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Here’s some more threadwork where we help E Meyer see how bac work without testing, using biological markers

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/instant-tank-cycle.612166/page-2
The claim made:
1. You cannot skip a cycle.
2. Proceeds to get linked years of skipped cycle tanks plus new ones.
Another illegible post where you refuse to engage the argument itself but instead point to some long and equally illegible forum thread? Color me surprised.

It is possible to have a tank with a nitrifying bacterial community, without any testing. The bacteria don't know or care if you've tested. If they are there and alive, they'll do their work.

However, it is not possible to KNOW you have a nitrifying bacterial community without any testing. You can HOPE you have a nitrifying bacterial community. You can ASSUME you have a nitrifying bacterial community. But the only way you will KNOW it is to measure it.
 

brandon429

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James

Message me if you want :) you can see what’s up here I’ll leave so this thread isn’t marred by arguing even after we closed your matter.



petty web arguing isn’t as fun as making proof that is linkable, instantly, without clear and obvious hesitation lol.
B

Check that skip cycle thread over this coming year. This is going to be neato

Those who are interested in furthering science post work threads to make claims, or counter claims. We do this not to make enemies, but to cause change in the hobby for the better. Making work or example threads is a great way to show patterns and cause change in the hobby and the thread examples speak for themselves

Work threads cause thought to proceed far past petty insults, work threads prevent futile arguing bc you get to simply see patterns at work. It would be ideal to have more than one example of a work thread here, to see.
 
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Dom

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Dom

You assume all api .25 are right, regardless of details about submersion, animals in tow, and massive oxidation of ammonia being ran each time he adds fifty drops in half a day, is that correct

Continuing the trend of commenting before reading, you are sure the several threads linked are all accurate .25 reads, even the five year tank one is that correct

Well... I understand that API is notoriously inaccurate, particularly where ammonia is concerned.

So with the goal of having a tank that processes ammonia without external intervention, I am not understanding why one would continue to add ammonia to maintain an elevated level.

I would describe my understanding of the nitrogen cycle as basic, and apparently there are many nuances with which I am unfamiliar.
 

EMeyer

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Well... I understand that API is notoriously inaccurate, particularly where ammonia is concerned.

So with the goal of having a tank that processes ammonia without external intervention, I am not understanding why one would continue to add ammonia to maintain an elevated level.

I would describe my understanding of the nitrogen cycle as basic, and apparently there are many nuances with which I am unfamiliar.
NH4 is food for nitrifying bacteria. Maintaining a low concentration during "cycling" fuels the growth of these bacteria.

My suggestion that NH4 tests alone are inadequate proof of a mature community is based on the fact that lots of things take up NH4, and not all of these processes produce NO3. I've seen evidence of these repeatedly. To be sure, I recommend waiting until NH4 is declining and NO3 is rising to declare a tank cycled.
 
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