Internal or External Return Pump

[GARRIGA]

Goal is dual Abyzz joined by a manifold should one fail than the other continues providing flow on separate controller inputs there by shutting one off should power be lost. Like having options.

Haven't decided on placement. Likely similar to Tidal Gardens. I won't have a sump therefore should have plenty of places and all inside a PVC drip pan. This way spilling water not a concern but seeing him clean his Abyzz has me less worry going that route.

Obviously this doesn't apply to you but don't see a reason your diagram wouldn't work. Pretty sure it can be elevated and placed vertically or horizontal. How I originally thought with it attached inside one of the stand legs if space limited or I'd want to save my back. Another reason no sump wanted. Getting too old to be bending over and taking a knee for a box of water. At least until I saw a roll out base for a sump and that got my juices flowing. Honestly no clue how I'm going to afford all this. :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[marcus aurelius]

I guess I should have done some more research on the external VS internal. Do you all think I will be okay?

 

[naterealbig]

I guess I should have done some more research on the external VS internal. Do you all think I will be okay?

Should be fine, but you'll need to add some valves on the inlet and outlet of each pump. Otherwise you won't be able to remove them for cleaning, replacement, etc. I mean, you could but you'll empty the contents of your sump and the volume in you display above your return nozzle onto the floor. :)

Also. From the angle of your pic I can't see all the plumbing, but if the two return pumps are connected into a single line, you will want to add a check valve on the outlet of each pump (downstream of the isolation valve). Otherwise, if one pump fails the other pump will be able to pump the return water back through the pump that stopped running. Essentially this will turn off all flow to display and stuff will die. With the check valve there, the water coming from the working pump only has a single path for flow (back to the display). If you have this issue addressed already and I can't see it or am missing something, disregard my note above.

 

[naterealbig]

I guess I should have done some more research on the external VS internal. Do you all think I will be okay?

Oh one more thing (not as critical as my previous notes, really just a 'pro-tip'). Most ball valves (especially true-union ball valves, although you don't need these with the built-in Vectra unions) are VERY restrictive (will add head pressure to pump, and significantly reduce max pump output). What you can do to counteract this, is buy ballvalves a size or two up from the plumbing you are connecting to. (ex: if your pump inlet plumbing is 1.25 in, buy a 1.5 in or 2 in ball valve (I'd go with the 2 in)). You can accomplish this by purchasing a 1.25 in to 2 in adapter (edit: verified adapter for minimal additional pvc parts) (or bushing, I can't remember which), to connect to the ball valve. The setup would go: Sump bulkhead > 1.25 in PVC pipe > 1.25 to 2 in adapter bushing > 2 in PVC Pipe > 2 in Ball Valve > 2 in PVC pipe > 2 in to 1.25 in adapter bushing > 1.25 in PVC pipe > pump inlet union. Do the same thing for the Ball Valve on the pump outlet plumbing.

If you need help selecting/verifying the right components, just post your questions here.

 

[exnisstech]

For a tank that size Or multi large tank system like ours. External pump. They Run forever with little to no need for maintenance or repair. I have a Reeflo hammerhead that is many years old. I have a spare set of seals for it that is almost as old as the pump but it has never leaked.

The down side is its HUGE and requires large dia. plumbing or you restrict its capability..
Never skimp on this pump ..

I ran a hammerhead when I had my basement sump shared but a 150g and a 180g tank on the first floor. Great pumps but I would never have one anywhere but in the basement because of the noise. My electric bill dropped almost $50 a month when I took it off line and moved everything into a new tank. I transfered everything except the pump which I switched to a jebao dcp 15000. Still have 2 hammerheads golds collecting dust if anyone is in need ;)

 

[naterealbig]

Goal is dual Abyzz joined by a manifold should one fail than the other continues providing flow on separate controller inputs there by shutting one off should power be lost. Like having options.

Ah! A design after my own. Minus the dual $3k pumps! Here's a current pic of my setup. :)

Haven't decided on placement. Likely similar to Tidal Gardens. I won't have a sump

Wait, so where is your equipment going to go? I'm thinking the Abyzz (even the small one) will be overkill for most AIO's...

all inside a PVC drip pan. This way spilling water not a concern but seeing him clean his Abyzz has me less worry going that route.

Never recall seeing this in the hobby, but standard for most mfg facilities I've worked at. I love the white ABS in the vid. Soooo clean!

Obviously this doesn't apply to you but don't see a reason your diagram wouldn't work.

Whew! Thanks for the thumbs up.

Pretty sure it can be elevated and placed vertically or horizontal. How I originally thought with it attached inside one of the stand legs if space limited or I'd want to save my back.

Now vertical mounting would be super cool looking. +1 one on 'saving the back'.

Getting too old to be bending over and taking a knee for a box of water.

I feel ya

At least until I saw a roll out base for a sump and that got my juices flowing.

So, I designed one of these for my brother's 250g. It's awesome. German casters w/ 2.5k lb each. The 80g sump (filled) rolls out from underneath the tank like a tab of butter on a hot pan. One step above this would be sump sitting on a panel on heavy duty drawer slides would be slick!

Honestly no clue how I'm going to afford all this. :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

Heh - you and me both brother... New house down payment or super cool aquarium equipment?? The choice is clear!

 

[GARRIGA]

Have the space for an 8ft long by 4ft wide tank. Custom AIO with oversized baffles to hide all equipment on a closed loop system containing canisters to house media to capture and decompose detritus.

Trying to use that closed loop to handle bulk of the flow thereby minimizing or eliminating wave makers which means less eye soar in the tank, less maintenance and less can go wrong. Really hate seeing equipment inside including cords on the outside.

Baffles might house sponges as well as Macroalgae but rather avoid having more lights and another maintenance item. Perhaps just sponges. Still learning about cryptic zones.

Abyzz on the hit list because I understand they are dependable but need to consider noise levels. Might be better served having several smaller pumps. Still working this out.

Besides the funds to complete this project. There’s the reality of limited juice. Have access to just one 15 amp circuit and that shares power with the annual Christmas tree as well as a 65” TV which I’m expecting will be replaced by an 85 along with adding a sound bar. Not seeing how I’ll be able to light up that tank and provide required flow with limited juice.

Reality might be setting up a 60 cube reef tank and going a different direction with that available space. End of day I want a monster tank. Been wanting that since the 80s and I’m not getting younger. Might need to reign in those dreams and be more practical but until I do the plight to obtain knowledge and dream on continues.

Discus would be much easier :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[naterealbig]

Have the space for an 8ft long by 4ft wide tank.

Dimensions of my dreams. Assume ~ 30 in high or so? Maybe 24 in to make it easier to reach the bottom/place corals?

Custom AIO with oversized baffles to hide all equipment on a closed loop system containing canisters to house media to capture and decompose detritus.

Very interesting, a concept I have never considered. Although makes sense. Quick disconnects for reactors/canisters? Something specialized to "decompose detritus"? Initially thought eheim-style floss filter for sediment/detritus, although likely a weekly/semiweekly mx item... Would like to hear more when you have time (or point me to a similar setup)...

Trying to use that closed loop to handle bulk of the flow thereby minimizing or eliminating wave makers which means less eye soar in the tank,

Definitely. I've always favored closed loops for flow, although I've never done it - too lazy to plan out required drilled holes, proper pump sizing, correct eductors, etc. For the 'right' setup, would DEFINITELY be worth it. My caveat here would be (in the spirit of minimal eyesores) max for flow outlets, all on the same (short) side of display. I never liked the long, overbearing closed loop manifolds that run the length of the tank along the top rim. Alternatively, perhaps 2-3 outlets on the bottom pane on each side of the tank. In this case, would arrange aquascape (and flow process) in a manner that would allow me to achieve true gyre flow throughout the display. If executed correctly, could potentially significantly reduce the size (and wattage) of the flow pumps... Would need to break out my old fluid dynamics text...

less maintenance and less can go wrong.

On the same page here, for sure.

Really hate seeing equipment inside including cords on the outside.

Yep!

Baffles might house sponges as well as Macroalgae but rather avoid having more lights and another maintenance item. Perhaps just sponges. Still learning about cryptic zones.

Another aspect of system design we share similar thoughts on. Cryptic zones have always been interesting to me. While I don't think I'd want to do the 3-zone cryptic/benthic setup (this was Tyree's design, no?) in the display - there is a certain, much different display aesthetic I'm trying to achieve. But I've considered an eggcrate-type lattice in a benthic zone. Minimal effect on the system, but I've usually got a couple pieces of LR in the (dark) sump that grow various sponges, worms, feather dusters, etc. Designed correctly, I think it could work very well. As a matter of fact, I email reeffarmers about their sponge seeding packages, and they were still selling them at the time... The only thing is, you'd want to limit sediment and minimize flow in the area, which may or may not be tricky. Perhaps downstream of the detritus canister, teed off the main line.

Abyzz on the hit list because I understand they are dependable but need to consider noise levels.

Are these loud? Never seen/heard one in person.

Might be better served having several smaller pumps. Still working this out.

True (thinking gyre flow from my previous comment). Otherwise I'd think you'd need something pressure-rated (Abyzz :)) along with eductors on the outlets to help push along that 6-7 ft of display tank lenth.

Besides the funds to complete this project.

Let's just pretend for now, it's a non-issue

There’s the reality of limited juice. Have access to just one 15 amp circuit and that shares power with the annual Christmas tree as well as a 65” TV which I’m expecting will be replaced by an 85 along with adding a sound bar.

I had an additional 20 amp dedicated fuse added to the fuse box and wire run (+ a couple additional outlets) for my office tank (~ 140 system gallons). I want to say it was ~ $500-700 total maybe? Not an option?

Not seeing how I’ll be able to light up that tank and provide required flow with limited juice.

Yes - without a dedicated circuit, would be tough. Although with the right amount of planning/engineering, I bet it could be achieved (or something very), close to your original system target. Happy to help brainstorm when you're ready to begin 'feasibility'.

Reality might be setting up a 60 cube reef tank and going a different direction with that available space. End of day I want a monster tank.

The 60 would be nice, but let's face it - time for the next challenge, and something big enough to take up some free time (impress the local reefers, something you can ogle over on a daily basis), and truly enjoy the way you want to.

Been wanting that since the 80s and I’m not getting younger.

I might 'die' on this 'hill'. I'm routing for you!

Might need to reign in those dreams and be more practical but until I do the plight to obtain knowledge and dream on continues.

Preach!

Discus would be much easier :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

Hahaha. I'd love to be a part of the design 'team' when your ready to start making this a reality. Keep me(us) posted.

 

[GARRIGA]

One design concept I’m considering is having dual peninsula style end baffles. One draws water. The other a return. Think in terms of moving water end to end vs needing pumps that push water end to end. Why closed loop might work. Basically the entire tank empties then fills.

There’s a new pump that runs inline and can switch flow. That would be unique in that I could theoretically replicate tides with half day flowing left to right then switch. Eliminate all dead spots and perhaps obtain better growth vs flow one directional. Just not sure how reliable this pump is. Saw it on a video then in person at RAP Orlando last year.

Tank is on one end of the house and fuse box on the other in a detached garage. I’ll have to see about an electrician adding a dedicated 20 amp. $700 isn’t an issue. Just not visualizing how that gets snaked being I’m not an electrician but if plausible then I’ll get it done.

Height likely dependent on if I go acro and need better PAR or happy with LPS and I’m not a prude seeing how shrooms just fine and I’d rather have enough height to enjoy some larger angels. Seeing Sprung with his Emperor in a reef tank gave me hope. Been wanting that fish ever since I was a kid. Along with a school of powder blues although latter likely crazy but since just dreaming and thinking then why not. Reality will likely be yellows. Saw a six foot full of those in the 90s at a wholesalers. Very impressive although how pack that was the tang police wouldn’t have any of it :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

Then there’s the practicality of going acrylic for safety concerns. Grandchildren and toys don’t mix well with glass and fish. Problem then becomes handling coralline and scratches. Every solution draws more concerns. It never ends.

Discus would be way easier :thinking-face: :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[naterealbig]

One design concept I’m considering is having dual peninsula style end baffles. One draws water. The other a return. Think in terms of moving water end to end vs needing pumps that push water end to end. Why closed loop might work. Basically the entire tank empties then fills.

This is a design I've actually considered. You couldn't achieve a gyre flow (which I think has the benefit of being able to utilize much smaller/fewer pumps) but, you would gain back some efficiency by being able to utilize high-flow low-pressure pumps (thinking Reeflo Hammerhead or the like). The other benefit I see is that you have the entire water column moving (slowly) so no need for turbulent flow to support coral respiration.

There’s a new pump that runs inline and can switch flow.

I assume you're talking about the Panta Rhei? I absolutely LOVE this inline pump (along with their other water-movement offerings). Several years ago I recall seeing a different brand of pump (CoralVue maybe?) with the same concept, but I don't recall exactly who at the moment... I'll sniff around and see if I can find any documentation.

That would be unique in that I could theoretically replicate tides with half day flowing left to right then switch. Eliminate all dead spots and perhaps obtain better growth vs flow one directional. Just not sure how reliable this pump is.

Agree completely. Incidentally, I utilize only two large flow pumps in my current display (Tunze 6255). They are both situated on one side of my tank. I have each one on a 14 hour on/off cycle - only one running at a time, save 1 hour at each end of the cycle where both pumps are on (I get a nice 'flush' effect from this, pushing all detritus to the overflow). Flow basically 'circles' in one direction for 11 hours, flushes, and then flows in the opposite direction for 11 hours. I achieve minimal 'intrusions', and to your point, the corals are getting long periods of unidirectional flow, which I think replicates most reefs (except maybe the more shallow reef crests) better than short pulsing, or multiple switching powerheads. All that to say - I agree with the idea that slow, high-flow, unidirectional flow (with occasional switching) is likely preferred by the corals.

Here is my setup as it is today (after a very recent complete reset, after I let Aiptasia get the best of my corals (and me)):

Tank is on one end of the house and fuse box on the other in a detached garage. I’ll have to see about an electrician adding a dedicated 20 amp. $700 isn’t an issue. Just not visualizing how that gets snaked being I’m not an electrician but if plausible then I’ll get it done.

Ah - easy enough to install some buried conduit from one building to another. Let this be the very last thing that stops your dream build from happening.

Height likely dependent on if I go acro and need better PAR or happy with LPS and I’m not a prude seeing how shrooms just fine and I’d rather have enough height to enjoy some larger angels. Seeing Sprung with his Emperor in a reef tank gave me hope. Been wanting that fish ever since I was a kid.

What are you leaning towards for lighting? For a tank this size (mine will probably be similar dimensions), I will probably consider solar tubes for my own build, supplemented with LED bars. I'm guessing the cost will be about double an equivalent quality LED system up front, but essentially an unlimited (and beautiful, IMO), sustainable light source that would support anything you wanted to keep.

Oh, the ~ 6,000K lighting with relatively high levels of UV would really bring out the fish coloration as well... Either way, I'm curious to know what you are considering here. Halides would also be a very efficient option (and have my my go-to up to my current office display, which is all LED), but trying to anticipate future availability of these has been a source of anxiety for me for the last few years. I would suck having to redo your lighting system however, if all manufacturing stopped.

Large angels in this tank would take the display from 'stunning' to 'truly epic' (I imagine you'll be relegated to SPS-only then - P. annularis, H. ciliaris, and P. diacanthus in my care have all enjoyed munching on at least some of my softies and/or LPS (the annularis particularly loved zoanthids), while other than an occasional nip, they never bugged my SPS). I saw a ~ 10 in specimen in a 500g system in a store in Atlanta several years ago, it was breathtaking, with a velvety (vs scaly; one of the things that stuck with me) skin, and grunting that you could hear through the acrylic walls... While you're at it, may as well source pairs vs individual - you may have to stick to ~ 2 species vs 4 or 5, but certainly would add a dynamic to your display that is a true rarity. Coincidentally, I'm currently trying to source a pair of P. diacanthus for my display. Was thinking these, along with a small harem of Pseudanthias, and 10 or so C. viridis would for something colorful, eyecatching...

Along with a school of powder blues although latter likely crazy but since just dreaming and thinking then why not.

Something else (powder blues) you would almost never see in captivity.

Reality will likely be yellows. Saw a six foot full of those in the 90s at a wholesalers. Very impressive although how pack that was the tang police wouldn’t have any of it :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

A school of any tang species would be truly impressive. I also like convicts when thinking about something I'd keep in schools/shoals in a large enough display. Haha - yes, the tang police here would have their *** on a dinner plate :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing::smiling-face-with-halo:

Then there’s the practicality of going acrylic for safety concerns. Grandchildren and toys don’t mix well with glass and fish.

I think only a semi-valid concern here. For your 120 w/ 3/8 in glass, sure. The glass display would be 3/4" to 1.5" wall thickness (are you going braced, euro, or rimless for this?). Unless the grandkids are throwing around bowling balls at 30 mph :face-with-tears-of-joy: ...

Problem then becomes handling coralline and scratches.

Yes - an absolute nightmare managing maintenance and preventing/repairing scratches...

Every solution draws more concerns. It never ends.

Ah, the never-ending plight of aquarium engineering...

Discus would be way easier :thinking-face: :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

I'm thinking boredom would take over quickly, both during design and sustainability phases of your project... :sleeping-face::sleeping-face::sleeping-face:

Thanks for your willingness to share you thoughts on this.. When the time comes, this would be worthy of documentation and sharing... As a ME by training and an artist by talent, I'd love to continue to be part of the hopefully ongoing discussion... I'm at your service as both a sounding board and technical resource...

 

[naterealbig]

Going back to the idea of the inline flow, closed loop pump... I did a quick google search, and could not find anything besides the Panta Rhei...

Their 40k gph model would certainly 'fit the bill here'. While the $6k pump price tag might shock most, I think the required 6" PVC plumbing is what could make this option cost prohibitive. Although, with an appropriate manifold (thinking 6" plumbing to multiple 2-3 in PVC lines on both the input and output sides may keep plumbing costs in check. The drawback with this design is that it would require multiple bulkhead penetrations which significantly increase the risk for leaks, and would be a major undertaking to repair a bulkhead or something. For kicks, I'm going to price out a 6 in plumbing setup, assuming a single inlet/outlet... Hold my beer.

 

[GARRIGA]

The baffles would have weirs top, mid section and bottom. As you sated, moving water vs forcing flow. How the baffles are plumbed will determine where flow would be highest. Need to think that through and likely will need help with fluid dynamics and a few gate valves to adjust where the flow comes from. Prefer max flow where the acros flourish although as they grow not sure how that will get diverted. With a four foot span they can be allowed to get as big as possible in a home aquarium which means height added unless I keep that trimmed which considering size of tank and little desire to go swimming might pose a unique challenge. Why going acros such a challenge.

My understanding that you need two XR30 for a 4ft by 2ft such as a 120. That's 200 watts per 24 inch cube. This tank would require 1600 watts unless acros constrained to one end. Still pondering how that would look although my eyes may not visually see the difference. I'm researching DLI to see if duration can reduce wattage. Kind of stumbled onto that in the 80s keeping an oversized anemone in a 55 illuminated by only two 40 watt daylight bulbs that was on about 16 plus hours daily. Only explanation I have as to why it lived as long as it did although I did feed it which I believe ultimately it's demise. As planned, that's way too much wattage even if I add a dedicated 20 amp because I still need juice for flow and heaters. Latter might just ignore as I'm starting to lean away from this dogma with 78. Perhaps room temperature sufficient plus a few degrees. Aim for 72-74.

Thinking PVC built tank with just the front acrylic panel which can be polished seasonally. Pollo Reef shows that feasible. Really prefer the security of acrylic but if going glass then euro braced. Something like RAD Aquariums would build but on a much smaller scale. At that point can go as thick a glass as wanted since it's just the one panel. Still would have me worried. No balling balls but as a kid I used to get creative. :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

You had asked about the media and forgot to mention I've been experimenting with Pumice for a few years. Can be obtained from orchid growers in various sizes. Key is mixing it so that there's an internal coarse to finer structure allowing detritus captured to decompose and move through the media. This would exist in the baffles with external canister doing the polishing of anything mulm size or smaller as those can be removed and cleaned as well as periodically the filter membrane can be replaced with finer micron and really polish the water. Final flow prior to return will go through a UV/Ozone combo that will oxidize all remnants periodically. Still studying this but seems very promising. Water changes not in my future due to home layout and time available. This might further restrict what I'm able to keep and why in the end can't be picky.

Rock placement will be similar to a rock pool therefore plenty of hiding places including seclusion for non photosynthetic sponges that might be predated. Although might have a few canisters dedicated to this in addition to the baffles.

Current thought process on those baffles is to have a bottom layer of pumice followed by structure to house a cryptic zone topped by macroalgae thereby just need to illuminate a smaller section. However, if I can carbon dose and minimize it's affect on my pH then forgo the macroalgae and increase the cryptic and pumice zones. Lasse has motivated me to take a new approach to dosing directly into the denitrification chamber thereby reduce the affects on pH. My house being airtight causes issues although still looking into getting an air exchanger which would solve that problem as well as making the air better for humans and pets. Can't always just be about the tank. Dosing hydroxide an option but I'd rather avoid that and likely getting an appropriate sized calcium reactor which will further lower my pH. More issues from solutions as stated previously.

You make a valid point in a Discus tank possibly getting boring and one of the visions I had for such a build is fact I live near the keys and have access to all kinds of life that can be added periodically because even corals and angels and tangs at some point can get so yesterday. Something to do with the grand kids, too.

Reason I keep mentioning Discus being the fact they get big, interact with the owner and can handle low pH and heat. Power outages by me happen in the summer and I'd have to install something like a few Tesla Walls trying to keep corals cool enough although in the dark for an extended period plus no way the wife going to be happy knowing some piece of coral comfortable when she's not. Those discus can spend weeks with nothing more than a pump turning the tank over a every couple of hours.

I'm a day trader where money makes money therefore spending it has a bigger cost then the actual spend and still need to go on vacation because wife not going to be happy staying home watching grass literally grow. Let's be honest. She's going to see corals as that comparison. Can't blame her :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[GARRIGA]

Going back to the idea of the inline flow, closed loop pump... I did a quick google search, and could not find anything besides the Panta Rhei...

Their 40k gph model would certainly 'fit the bill here'. While the $6k pump price tag might shock most, I think the required 6" PVC plumbing is what could make this option cost prohibitive. Although, with an appropriate manifold (thinking 6" plumbing to multiple 2-3 in PVC lines on both the input and output sides may keep plumbing costs in check. The drawback with this design is that it would require multiple bulkhead penetrations which significantly increase the risk for leaks, and would be a major undertaking to repair a bulkhead or something. For kicks, I'm going to price out a 6 in plumbing setup, assuming a single inlet/outlet... Hold my beer.

Have considered the drilling concern but since bottom made of PVC this might be less of a concern. Another option I'm contemplating is no drilling and just plumb it like you would a typical home aquarium canister such as a Fluval FX. It's a closed loop system therefore no need to get fancy with plumbing. Just need to get the hoses primed once and connected. Might need to deal with air bubbles which is always a concern with a closed loop system where canisters get serviced periodically.

Instead of the two way pump, add a bunch of DC pumps with a controller going in both directions and every six to twelve hours increase the flow in one direction and reduce it on the other. Not sure how feasible this is but it's how some create flow with wave makers where they go from 80% down to 20% and the other side goes in reverse as they change direction to suspend detritus and avoid dead spots. Something I can test on a smaller setup.

The last part of this equation is exactly how much flow needed since one is moving water which should be considerably less than trying to push it four feet such as going back wall to front. Would be considerably less than than trying to go 8 ft across. Why I'm hoping closed loop would eliminate need for pumps in tank. Just move the water end to end.

 

[naterealbig]

The baffles would have weirs top, mid section and bottom. As you sated, moving water vs forcing flow. How the baffles are plumbed will determine where flow would be highest. Need to think that through and likely will need help with fluid dynamics and a few gate valves to adjust where the flow comes from. Prefer max flow where the acros flourish although as they grow not sure how that will get diverted. With a four foot span they can be allowed to get as big as possible in a home aquarium which means height added unless I keep that trimmed which considering size of tank and little desire to go swimming might pose a unique challenge. Why going acros such a challenge.

My understanding that you need two XR30 for a 4ft by 2ft such as a 120. That's 200 watts per 24 inch cube. This tank would require 1600 watts unless acros constrained to one end. Still pondering how that would look although my eyes may not visually see the difference. I'm researching DLI to see if duration can reduce wattage. Kind of stumbled onto that in the 80s keeping an oversized anemone in a 55 illuminated by only two 40 watt daylight bulbs that was on about 16 plus hours daily. Only explanation I have as to why it lived as long as it did although I did feed it which I believe ultimately it's demise. As planned, that's way too much wattage even if I add a dedicated 20 amp because I still need juice for flow and heaters. Latter might just ignore as I'm starting to lean away from this dogma with 78. Perhaps room temperature sufficient plus a few degrees. Aim for 72-74.

Thinking PVC built tank with just the front acrylic panel which can be polished seasonally. Pollo Reef shows that feasible. Really prefer the security of acrylic but if going glass then euro braced. Something like RAD Aquariums would build but on a much smaller scale. At that point can go as thick a glass as wanted since it's just the one panel. Still would have me worried. No balling balls but as a kid I used to get creative. :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

You had asked about the media and forgot to mention I've been experimenting with Pumice for a few years. Can be obtained from orchid growers in various sizes. Key is mixing it so that there's an internal coarse to finer structure allowing detritus captured to decompose and move through the media. This would exist in the baffles with external canister doing the polishing of anything mulm size or smaller as those can be removed and cleaned as well as periodically the filter membrane can be replaced with finer micron and really polish the water. Final flow prior to return will go through a UV/Ozone combo that will oxidize all remnants periodically. Still studying this but seems very promising. Water changes not in my future due to home layout and time available. This might further restrict what I'm able to keep and why in the end can't be picky.

Rock placement will be similar to a rock pool therefore plenty of hiding places including seclusion for non photosynthetic sponges that might be predated. Although might have a few canisters dedicated to this in addition to the baffles.

Current thought process on those baffles is to have a bottom layer of pumice followed by structure to house a cryptic zone topped by macroalgae thereby just need to illuminate a smaller section. However, if I can carbon dose and minimize it's affect on my pH then forgo the macroalgae and increase the cryptic and pumice zones. Lasse has motivated me to take a new approach to dosing directly into the denitrification chamber thereby reduce the affects on pH. My house being airtight causes issues although still looking into getting an air exchanger which would solve that problem as well as making the air better for humans and pets. Can't always just be about the tank. Dosing hydroxide an option but I'd rather avoid that and likely getting an appropriate sized calcium reactor which will further lower my pH. More issues from solutions as stated previously.

You make a valid point in a Discus tank possibly getting boring and one of the visions I had for such a build is fact I live near the keys and have access to all kinds of life that can be added periodically because even corals and angels and tangs at some point can get so yesterday. Something to do with the grand kids, too.

Reason I keep mentioning Discus being the fact they get big, interact with the owner and can handle low pH and heat. Power outages by me happen in the summer and I'd have to install something like a few Tesla Walls trying to keep corals cool enough although in the dark for an extended period plus no way the wife going to be happy knowing some piece of coral comfortable when she's not. Those discus can spend weeks with nothing more than a pump turning the tank over a every couple of hours.

I'm a day trader where money makes money therefore spending it has a bigger cost then the actual spend and still need to go on vacation because wife not going to be happy staying home watching grass literally grow. Let's be honest. She's going to see corals as that comparison. Can't blame her :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

Will take some time to consider all, reply... Give me a bit

 

[naterealbig]

Have considered the drilling concern but since bottom made of PVC this might be less of a concern. Another option I'm contemplating is no drilling and just plumb it like you would a typical home aquarium canister such as a Fluval FX. It's a closed loop system therefore no need to get fancy with plumbing. Just need to get the hoses primed once and connected. Might need to deal with air bubbles which is always a concern with a closed loop system where canisters get serviced periodically.

Instead of the two way pump, add a bunch of DC pumps with a controller going in both directions and every six to twelve hours increase the flow in one direction and reduce it on the other. Not sure how feasible this is but it's how some create flow with wave makers where they go from 80% down to 20% and the other side goes in reverse as they change direction to suspend detritus and avoid dead spots. Something I can test on a smaller setup.

The last part of this equation is exactly how much flow needed since one is moving water which should be considerably less than trying to push it four feet such as going back wall to front. Would be considerably less than than trying to go 8 ft across. Why I'm hoping closed loop would eliminate need for pumps in tank. Just move the water end to end.

Just for fun re: Single, inline, switching flow pump idea... Perhaps over/under simplified and using a (very, very) quick review of this (A Framework to Quantify Flow Through Coral Reefs of Varying Coral Cover & Morphology) study....



A fun guess at the required pump flow rate, to achieve a water column velocity of 0.16 (mid-range of study calcuation) and 0.3 (higher range) and 0.5 (high range) m/sec (assuming tank cross section of 48in wide, 30 in high)....

 

[GARRIGA]

Don't know how to interpret that. I'm trying to think in tank volume since I'm moving the entire water column. Thinking the typical 10x to 50x often quoted for wave makers no longer applies. For example, if main display displaces 400 gallons of water than how often do I need to replace that to keep corals happy knowing I'm no longer trying to push water past them and instead I'm taking that water away and replacing it with new water. Which brings it's own concerns since I'm now transferring it's neighbors waste to it. That furthest down the line getting the most contact time with all prior coral waste. Constant hurdles :crying-face:

 

[naterealbig]

Sorry it took so long to respond. I started to reply, then realized I was writing a dissertation, then 'put the gun down' :) .

Don't know how to interpret that.

Not necessarily necessary... See my thoughts (as someone who has a pretty solid grasp of fluid dynamics & how they apply to our systems/organisms) below. Perhaps just a highlight of the absolutely immense flow we'd see in a real reef (vs our captive systems), although I think the concept I touch on below may be worthy of (at least a) consideration.

I'm trying to think in tank volume since I'm moving the entire water column.

If you're thinking tank volume, then you are in fact thinking along the lines of "10x to 50x often quoted...no longer applies"...

Thinking the typical 10x to 50x often quoted for wave makers no longer applies.

Yes exactly. Actually, it never really applied, it's just the only model of fluid flow dynamics (an incomprehensibly complex topic) that could be loosely 'understood' by most hobbyists, that happened to get us in the 'ballpark'. I believe that there are some important assumptions to this (as with any) model that are being made (despite the fact they are never mentioned): 1) you are using powerheads for flow and 2) The powerheads are well-positioned.

It's my opinion these assumptions allow the model to be feasible for our purposes because: 1) Powerheads produce a high velocity stream of water flow 2) Aquarists don't use the flow stream to supply water circulation for coral respiration - but rather the indirect, resultant, turbulent flow outside of the direct stream. Microscopically, the generated turbulent flow is moving rather quickly across the coral/water 'interface'. 3) (Very, very) generally, the slower water flow is, the more laminar the flow 4) Some minimum velocity of water is necessary for optimal respiration (here is one article I found using a quick google search). From the above, and applied to the system you are describing (I suppose it would be worth checking to see if I understand your proposal (see below)), it is my opinion that: moving the entire column of water evenly from one side of the display to another, and understanding resultant lower velocity of the water column (vs the relatively high velocity of a powerhead) will result in a more laminar flow. It is also my opinion that because the display flow would be more laminar overall, that the velocity of the water column (moving as a 'whole', right-to-left across the entire display) and meeting that necessary minimum (velocity) becomes more critical to achieving optimum coral respiration.

To illustrate my point, the calculations I did in my previous post simply took the measured average velocity from the referenced article, and applied them to the dimensions of the display you stated, and calculated the volumetric flow rate of the pump that would be required to achieve that velocity (the linked article in this post above estimated the minimum velocity for optimal respiration of the coral, which is in the ballpark of the velocity I used in my calculations).

All of that being said, I think those calculations loosely illustrate a very conservative estimate of the necessary pump flow rate. For instance, obstructions such as live rock and coral, would change the surface area in different cross sections of the display; and for a given volumetric flow rate where cross sectional area decreases, velocity increases (and theoretically improves coral respiration). Additionally, the coral and rockwork themselves will most certainly create localized turbulence, also theoretically improving respiration.

I'm getting way, way into the weeds here, but if I could sum it up in a sentence it would be: I believe that if utilizing laminar flow by moving the entire column of water in a display (such as what one of your ideas we have been discussing is), the overall pump flow rate will likely need to be greater than that of the standard 'x' turnover rate used when trying to estimate the flow rate & number of equivalent powerheads needed to sustain corals.

Without a doubt it would be wise to model this on a smaller system with corals similar to those intended for the final version.

Could you take a look at my diagram below and let me know if I'm understanding the system correctly?

For example, if main display displaces 400 gallons of water than how often do I need to replace that to keep corals happy knowing I'm no longer trying to push water past them and instead I'm taking that water away and replacing it with new water.

I disagree. "replacing with new water" assumes 100% filtration efficiency (water restored to optimal conditions at first pass through filtration) and that the water is being filtered at the same rate the water is being circulated in the display. In our systems, generally, water quality restoration is reliant on contact time with filtration media/chemical/whatever - so filtration turnover rate has very little impact to final water quality after a single pass (contact time decreases with increased turnover rate and vise-versa), while higher ratios of filtration media surface area/volume to water volume are much more impactful (a single pass of a cubic meter of tap water through a cubic meter of carbon will remove much more chlorine than a cubic meter of water with multiple passes through a cubic centimeter of carbon).

Which brings it's own concerns since I'm now transferring it's neighbors waste to it. That furthest down the line getting the most contact time with all prior coral waste.

I don't believe is a concern, as the relatively tiny amount of waste from one coral is significantly diluted in the water column before it arrives at the next...

 

[GARRIGA]

I’m trying to replicate a shallow reef such as those found by me. Flow isn’t as powerful in the lower keys as it is off Palm Beach where the Gulf Stream runs closest to shore.

On those shallow reefs particular matter moving slowing down stream yet off Palma’s large bodies such as a diver move quickly to the point they might be miles down flow when they surface.

In the end I’m going max what my equipment can handle and find life that matches those conditions vs trying to solve the impossible.

As for filtration. All water will travel through canister filters that will handle all nitrification first pass to the extent I might need to infuse oxygen down stream to avoid anaerobic conditions where sulfur now becomes a problem. I have literally 8ft of plumbing to place large enough canisters to ensure every drop is nitrified and to some extent possibly denitrify. Researching how to inject carbon to handle nitrates more efficiently without lowering pH assuming a Refugium isn’t used.

This last part becomes more of a concern if I go with the reversing flow where both sides are equally drilled to allow flow from top to bottom vs having a setup where only the export of water covers the water column and return purely at the surface where some hydrogen sulfide has an escape route. This option would likely require a gyre or two to help ensure no dead spot.

 

[naterealbig]

The baffles would have weirs top, mid section and bottom. As you sated, moving water vs forcing flow. How the baffles are plumbed will determine where flow would be highest. Need to think that through and likely will need help with fluid dynamics and a few gate valves to adjust where the flow comes from. Prefer max flow where the acros flourish although as they grow not sure how that will get diverted.

Ah - something most couldn't anticipate, understand (the size, shape of outlets impact water velocity). Following and agreeing...

With a four foot span they can be allowed to get as big as possible in a home aquarium which means height added unless I keep that trimmed which considering size of tank and little desire to go swimming might pose a unique challenge. Why going acros such a challenge.

May be true. While certainly more challenging than pruning/tidying-up a smaller display; assuming your arms are >= 2 ft long, you should be able to reach most of the corals/rocks/sand in the tank assuming you can access it from 2 sides. Perhaps with a pair of tongs to grab the smallest bits/shells/frags falling into the sand or rock right in the middle of the tank.

My understanding that you need two XR30 for a 4ft by 2ft such as a 120. That's 200 watts per 24 inch cube. This tank would require 1600 watts unless acros constrained to one end.

Sounds about right. I think my 60x24x20 office display is slightly overlit with 3 x Radion 30 G6's.

Still pondering how that would look although my eyes may not visually see the difference.

I reduced my lighting from 100% down to 40% (in addition to dosing nitrate) to combat some coral lightening in my display. The display is still very bright to my eyes at 40% - I would not have been able to guess the intensity based on my eyes perception here. Likely will be less impactful than you think.

I'm researching DLI to see if duration can reduce wattage.

I believe in this 100%. Empirically, I enjoy a rather long photoperiod for my displays - I have found that by reducing the lighting intensity allows for me to achieve this without a negative impact to the corals. I know it's a different application of the theory, but using same/similar variables.

Kind of stumbled onto that in the 80s keeping an oversized anemone in a 55 illuminated by only two 40 watt daylight bulbs that was on about 16 plus hours daily. Only explanation I have as to why it lived as long as it did although I did feed it which I believe ultimately it's demise. As planned, that's way too much wattage even if I add a dedicated 20 amp because I still need juice for flow and heaters. Latter might just ignore as I'm starting to lean away from this dogma with 78. Perhaps room temperature sufficient plus a few degrees. Aim for 72-74.

Have been following along with several discussions I have seen re: temperature 'bands'...

Thinking PVC built tank with just the front acrylic panel which can be polished seasonally.

This makes sense for the application. Wonder if there could be a way have 2 acrylic panels fabricated, and design the display in a manner that would allow for quick swapping of panels (pull the old one out for refurbishment/polishing, and replace with the refurbished on from the 'shelf'). It would be much easier to execute scratch removal and polishing on a workbench, vs underwater sanding using 20 different grits of sandpaper...

If using a single panel, could likely get away with a much thinner acrylic making logistics of removing/replacing much easier as well.

Really prefer the security of acrylic but if going glass then euro braced.

If your home supports a display inside a fish room with a viewing panel in the wall, the idea of PVC box with a single (acrylic) viewing panel makes complete sense....

Something like RAD Aquariums would build but on a much smaller scale.

Don't think I've seen this brand off the top of my head - will take a look...

At that point can go as thick a glass as wanted since it's just the one panel. Still would have me worried. No balling balls but as a kid I used to get creative. :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

Hahahaha, man so true

You had asked about the media and forgot to mention I've been experimenting with Pumice for a few years.
Can be obtained from orchid growers in various sizes.

My initial thought was blocks, but I surmise that you would be using the media in a granular form?

Key is mixing it so that there's an internal coarse to finer structure allowing detritus captured to decompose and move through the media. This would exist in the baffles with external canister doing the polishing of anything mulm size or smaller as those can be removed and cleaned as well as periodically the filter membrane can be replaced with finer micron and really polish the water.

Have you considered a sand filter (normally (although rarely) used in pool setups). Basically a large tank filled half way or-so with sand (pumice) that acts as a sediment filter. Capability of backflushing (by reversing flow and fluidizing the sand bed). Perhaps something like this could accomplish both your denitrification and sediment filtration in one... Likely would require too much flow for cryptic sponges and the like, but could be corralled in other parts of the filtration system.

Final flow prior to return will go through a UV/Ozone combo that will oxidize all remnants periodically. Still studying this but seems very promising. Water changes not in my future due to home layout and time available. This might further restrict what I'm able to keep and why in the end can't be picky.

Very interested to see the testing results of the UV/Ozone combo we discussed previously. I don't care for the idea of zero water changes without 'good reason' (sounds like you have one), although it seems more and more folks are being successful at keeping their systems with minimal water changes. Perhaps a monthly quarterly ICP could let you know the important trace elements to be replacing... Carbon and/or Ozone with UV along with trace elements sounds like it could make for a solid plan.

Current thought process on those baffles is to have a bottom layer of pumice followed by structure to house a cryptic zone topped by macroalgae thereby just need to illuminate a smaller section. However, if I can carbon dose and minimize it's affect on my pH then forgo the macroalgae and increase the cryptic and pumice zones.

I would likely lean towards the cryptic sections were I to set up a similar system...

My house being airtight causes issues although still looking into getting an air exchanger which would solve that problem as well as making the air better for humans and pets. Can't always just be about the tank

poppycock

Dosing hydroxide an option but I'd rather avoid that and likely getting an appropriate sized calcium reactor which will further lower my pH. More issues from solutions as stated previously.

True. It 'feels' like there is less documentation on this type of oxidant dosing as well... With a well-engineered calcium reactor (Tunze is my absolute favorite unit) - and coupled with the appropriately-size media (small) the pH difference would be negligible, I'd think. A small duct pulling air from outside could be another mitigating addition (easier/harder depending on display location). Would shy away from the CO2 scrubbers; one more thing to buy/change/disassemble/replace....

You make a valid point in a Discus tank possibly getting boring and one of the visions I had for such a build is fact I live near the keys and have access to all kinds of life that can be added periodically because even corals and angels and tangs at some point can get so yesterday. Something to do with the grand kids, too.

Yeeessss. Grandma had a beach house in Alligator Point (due south of Tallahassee) - the low tides exposed sandbars for hundreds of yards out. Never went a day in all my summers there as a kid not finding something new. Was a magical place/time for me as a young teen. I imagine it would/will be the same for them, somewhere on that spectrum. Even better if you are participating along with...

Reason I keep mentioning Discus being the fact they get big, interact with the owner and can handle low pH and heat. Power outages by me happen in the summer and I'd have to install something like a few Tesla Walls trying to keep corals cool enough although in the dark for an extended period plus no way the wife going to be happy knowing some piece of coral comfortable when she's not. Those discus can spend weeks with nothing more than a pump turning the tank over a every couple of hours.

I see can see the appeal... I'm not there yet though (gimme a few more years?) :face-with-tears-of-joy::face-with-tears-of-joy:

I'm a day trader where money makes money therefore spending it has a bigger cost then the actual spend and still need to go on vacation because wife not going to be happy staying home watching grass literally grow.

Makes sense, and as a husband with a new baby, I can relate to some meaningful degree.

Let's be honest. She's going to see corals as that comparison. Can't blame her :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

I consider myself incredibly lucky that my wife is as patient/tolerant of my neuroses/mess/diversion as she is. I get it.

Be chatting...

 

[GARRIGA]

Fluidizes bed sand filter was a consideration but likely adds complexity that can be resolved by an oversized container of pumice. Idea is to use different media including different porosity sponges to capture and decompose detritus until inert and then disposed. Obviously still in design phase and part of upcoming test. Culminating in the option to periodically polish the water down to 10 or lower microns or when dealing with pathogens, bacteria, dino or algae bloom.

Granular pumice of various sizes will create different size voids to capture detritus of various sizes and decomposition state as well as create more surface area for nitrification and denitrification. Don't trust that the internal structure of pumice will remain unclogged from biofilm. Main properties needed being size availability and weight considerations. Set it and forget it as I don't plan on opening the container housing it other than very infrequent cleaning or observation. Current design using a PVC built sealed sump with access hatches where water level dropped and I can remove and clean contents if needed. Purely a backup emergency plan and hope is I never need to access it.

This is then followed by Big Blue canisters that will contain different micron filters graduating from coarse to fine as desired. Likely most water will filter down to 30 or 40 micron which would likely capture mulm and inert detritus with proceeding canisters empty and periodically add the lower micron filters for polishing as stated previously. To handle flow as these max out around 900 gph and not sure if that's loaded with media or empty I 'll have several channels fed off that main pumice compartment then collected into a manifold that will feed the pair of pumps or more needed to handle the overall flow.

I know this sounds very complex but it is "build it once" then sit back and enjoy while reducing maintenance or hassle. Knowing myself. More effort needed the less it will get attended.

In the end, enough flexibility to handle full blown acro reef to FOWLR to just discus. Lure is having that monster tank and what life it contains goes from nice to have to most pragmatic. I'll enjoy it all and don't think the grandchildren care although tank full of guppies enough to grab their attention. Mine too :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing: