IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DISEASE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?

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ying yang

ying yang

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Ok thanks for all responses so far. I will bump this thread each night for few nights at my time midnight as be 5- 7pm in United States so prezume as this site American and often when I check where people are from its America, most should of finished work and higher chance be online reading the threads but so far seems that most don't lose fish because dont quarantine and nowhere near the 80% that I keep seeing get said over and over ,closer to 80% dont lose fish to no qt in this thread.and I know this isn't a scientific study or polling thousands of fish keepers.but my curiousity been sort of answered so thanks .
 
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Reef Chasers Aquaculture

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I keep seeing get said over and over ,closer to 80% dont lose fish to no qt in this thread.and I know this isn't a scientific study or polling thousands of fish keepers.but my curiousity been sort of answered so thanks .
Not sure if you intentionally added the phrase/title that's going to trigger the people who don't use a quarantine set up, or was it on purpose? But you did.
IMO more of the non quarantine people are going to jump on that to disprove your statement, then people who quarantine.
It's a long discussed subject that has been brought up many times.
My first thought was, another one, probably should ignore.
 
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ying yang

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Not sure if you intentionally added the phrase/title that's going to trigger the people who don't use a quarantine set up, or was it on purpose? But you did.
IMO more of the non quarantine people are going to jump on that to disprove your statement, then people who quarantine.
It's a long discussed subject that has been brought up many times.
My first thought was, another one, probably should ignore.
No didnt want to sway who answered and who didn't,anyone was welcome and people who do qt could of answered by saying " the number one reason why I qt is because there is such huge losses ( or what looks like to be huge losses) from people who don't qt.
I know read other threads about majority don't
Qt but statement I keep seeing over and over is 80% of people will have fish losses because no qt so thread title/ question was is it true or not.

Even put name of Jay's current diesese protocal in first post ( which later took screenshot of people deleted and added into one of first replys from me ) and also said about lots info on no qt and feeding well and other stuff related to keep none qt fish healthy as can be to be fair and try stay nuetral in my writing .maybe I should of added open to all ,please reply if qt or not but as its open to all I didnt feel the need.but answer to your question is no I didn't make title to try get more none qt people give a reply so looks like in thread not alot of people lose fish to dieseses/parasites in first 8 months .
As without doing the maths on all replys here,it looks more like 90% of people who don't qt don't lose fish to dieseses/parasites in first 8 months .

And again I'm not saying that no one should qt or not qt and I myself have a hospital tank running 24/ 7 and a filter in sump running to go in an empty 3 foot tank if need to pull 1 or all fish out my dt to get medicated so not against qt at all.
And in my first post I did initially write if it is such huge numbers of fish dying in first 8 months because no qt then we need to start suggesting more to new fishkeepers how important qt actually is but deleted it as first post was far to long and deleted all if other stuff also as wanted to get as much info that thought was relevant but literally could write a book on all the different factors that come into play ^_^
 
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Saltandfresh

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Hi all,hope all is well.

Just realised this is extremely long post so if want to skimm over it and just say if qt or not and have you lost fish in first 8 months or not to diesese/parasites feel free

I'm seeing over and over that if dont quarantine fishes and when buy cuc/inverts or add anything wet to tank then we will have fish losses from diesese/parasites before the 8 month point in 80% of cases,which seems extremely high.
Now this thread isnt to call anyone a liar who says this,it's just my curiousity and to get a rough gauge of the problem if it exists

As I'm having a very hard time thinking this to be the case as I've read countless threads on whether r2r members qt or not and majority do not qt at all so if 80% of people that don't qt have fish losses then that's absurd amount of fish dying,or is is it the case as I read often said that there's so many people posting about their fish died or dying from a fish diesese/ parasite and need help,that people are in the diesese forum because they got a problem and don't make a thread there saying " hey my fish are alive and well "

So......can copy and paste this next bit out if applies to you to make easier or add onto it or delete or answer how you may.just add time in if needed etc

I do an observational qt on all newly bought fish for ..... length of time .and also to get fish eating properley away from other fish.

I do a medicated qt on all newly bought fish and I use the following medications and follow jay hemdal or humblefish recomendations on dosage/ duration.

I only do medicated qt if fish shows sign of ill health .

I dont qt and just temp/ drip aclimitise my fish then add straight to display tank or some I read add to sump.

Then if you may say how many fish you lost in first 8 months of setting the tank up either lost whilst medicating from overdosing,equipment failure,bullying,diesese still showed up on fish even though did very extensive medicated qt,or if no qt and fish died of diesese/ parasites ( this last one is what I'm wanting to really find out) aw and roughly how long did it take for fish to die please.

Feel free to add anything you feel relevant as I've read many threads where people state there fish are immune to dieseses in their tank and they want to add parasites occasionally to refresh the fishes immunity,and they feed fresh food,live food and no dry food or very little etc .( only works in a very mature reef they say)
And I know there many contributory factors why a fish could die as could die ( diesese,parasites,wrong food,bullying,tank size,overstocked,or many other factors .

So is it 80% of people that make threads in r2r diesese forum lose fishes to diesese in the first 8 months of tank.
Or is it 80% of all reefers who don't qt at all lose fishes to diesese/parasites in first 8 months ?

I've read that either 100k or 300k of Americans in u.s have saltwater tanks by a r2r member ( how true this is or not idk but if even 100k and 80% of people just lose 2 fish to diesese/parasites in first 8 months then that's 160k fishes lost just in u.s alone or is it 80% of the posters that say there fish are diesesed lose fish in first 8 months that ACTUALLY start a thread then % of fish lost going be much lower.


I will start it off by saying new to saltwater at 9 months and 1 of first fish I bought had possible brookenla diesese and took straight back to lfs and got another 2 clowns from same tank and did observational qt for 30 days in same tank that I put first 2 clowns in and didn't change water or nothing and the rest of my fish I put straight in display tank and lost 0 fish so far ( lfs did tell me that the 2 clowns I took back,1 died few days later,it looked good when I bought it and dont know if missed the signs on that one clown or stress of it being in bag and/or bullying from other clown caused it to look so bad straight away as put in my qt tank idk)



Thanks very much and enjoy rest your day
Doesn’t sound true. But try to either get quarantined fish or do it yourself. Especially if you have an established system. Not worth the risk.
 

i cant think

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Doesn’t sound true. But try to either get quarantined fish or do it yourself. Especially if you have an established system. Not worth the risk.
Neither is qt if I’m honest. Over the past 10 or so years I’ve kept about 50 fish, they died from ammonia spikes or jumping. I have owned several ich magnets without qt, here’s just a few to name:
- Blue eye kole tang,
- Scopas tang,
- Regal tang.
None of them ever got ich however when I worked in a fish store and they dosed copper in the fish system, there was always Atleast 3 deaths a week. IMO it’s better to just float and pop them into the DT instantly and not risk a death in qt. I have had ich spike in my tank but guess what? They are all still thriving without qt. one of the ones that got the ich was the blue eye kole and he’s still with me. Ich appeared in September and it’s been two months. I’ve owned countless of my fish for 2 years now, I also owned my previous stock that died from an ammonia spike for 2 years. CBBs eat better in a DT than they do in a qt IMO. The reason for this is they can eat all day long and not run out of fauna to thrive on. I had a CBA that came home with an illness (Can’t remember the name of it), I returned it and the LFS qted it… dead within a few days. I let the LFS keep the money because they Atleast tried to help it survive.
I never have and never will qt, I may be getting another fish this weekend (Flashing tilefish) to replace a bully I’m taking in (Jade wrasse), unfortunately nobody knows anything on these guys except the fact they jump and need a peaceful establishing time. I will not qt it when I get it since it was stressed out last weekend and so I think qt would just kill it from stressing too much.
Here’s a photo of one of the three tangs displaying, been two years and I’ve never seen this in him.
FD6FA2BD-085D-4006-8713-BEA0D6F450F4.jpeg
 
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I'm going to add my undoubtedly controversial opinion: I am probably the most anti-QT person you will find. In over 20 years of barely ever being without fish (tropical, marine or pond) I have never even once quarantined and I also have never had any disease affect more than the newly introduced fish.

Let me explain why I do things the way I do.

I first wanted a fish tank when I was around 8. My parents wouldn't allow me to get fish because "they always get sick and die". To be fair to them I understand why that's what they believed. The goldfish tank at my school had "blue water" more often than not, fish died constantly. The neighbours' fish had white spot or just randomly died. The pond near our house had regularly dead fish floating at the top during the summer (it stank!).

My uncle felt sorry for me and said we should speak to his friend who was the director of a public aquarium at the time. I begged and begged and my parents eventually gave in.

The guy took ages to talk to us and explained that fish basically never get sick as long as their environment is as it should be. He said if we tell him how big a tank we could have then he would tell us exactly what fish we could add and when. He guaranteed that no fish would die of disease after they had been in the tank for 3-4 months and that other than feeding twice per day, topping up with some fresh water every few days there would be no work other than a monthly water change of 20%. For the first 6 months we would also have to check levels for different things, especially ammonia.

Fast forward 4 months and we had our first fish and we added from the rest of the list over the next 8 months, always leaving a 4 week gap between new additions.

We applied his basic rules he told us about - keep a healthy environment:

1. Stability of all parameters
2. Always stock well below what anyone tells you will work
3. Stick to fish that require similar parameters
4. Feed often but very little
5. Use double the filtration capacity you should

No diseases, ever. The tank thrived. The only deaths were jumping and old age (and of course smaller fish turning into meals).

Regardless of what kind of tank or pond I have had, this is what I have stuck to. For years I didn't think much about it but some time ago I had a long discussion with the owner of an independent LFS. The rules my uncle's friend taught me make perfect sense.

The large majority of fish, no matter where they come from, will carry parasites, bacteria and in some cases viruses, either in tiny amounts or dormant. In other words, you cannot keep parasites, bacteria or even viruses out of your tank. They don't cause illness unless the fish's immune system weakens. It's no different to to us carrying the VZ virus after having had chickenpox. Most people will never know but many will experience an outbreak of shingles, often repeatedly over their lifetime, and the cause is always a weakened immune system, more often than not due to stress.

Back to fish. If a fish has no signs of disease after being in a tank at your LFS for two weeks plus the chances that it will get sick once you buy it are slim. It has survived being caught, being shipped, being dumped into a wholesaler tank, being caught again and being shipped again. The simple fact is that there isn't any disease which won't show symptoms or kills for two weeks. Of course there is a small chance that the stress of being caught at the LFS, transported to your house and then being added to your tank could trigger a weakened immune system but it's rare (some exceptions, more later). If that happens though the impact on your existing fish, as long as they're healthy and your tank is stable, is non-existent.

It's very different if you introduce new fish which stress your existing ones out, so never add something aggressive into a healthy tank. It will go wrong. The same applies if your latest addition increases your bio load to such an extent that your stability is ruined.

Stressed fish = weakened immune system = awakening whatever parasites, viruses or bacteria have been "dormant".

Three more points:

1. The amount of fish which die between shipping, wholesaler and then after initially arriving at your LFS is insane. Whatever fish you see in the LFS display tanks are the strongest ones which have survived the most stressful experience they'll ever face.

2. I never mail-order fish. Doing so either removes the period between wholesaler, LFS and purchase or shortens it. Mail-ordering effectively makes you the LFS with all it entails.

3. There are fish which will more likely get sick than not when you buy them. I won't bore anyone with freshwater examples but the most obvious marine example is Chromis and their susceptibility to Uronema. If you buy Chromis, you're almost certain to introduce Uronema into your tank. You're also almost certain to loose 50% or more of the Chromis you have bought within the first week. Does it matter to your existing fish as long as they're healthy and as long as your tank is in perfect condition? Not one bit. In all likelihood Uronema was already present in your tank along with a whole lot of other bugs.
 

Paul B

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I've read many threads where people state there fish are immune to dieseses in their tank and they want to add parasites occasionally to refresh the fishes immunity,and they feed fresh food,live food and no dry food or very little etc .( only works in a very mature reef they say)
That is probably me. :) Yes, my tank is immune and has been for decades, but that won't work in everyones tank and never in a new tank.

I feel almost all tanks are not set up properly and quarantine has little to do with it except maybe destroy some of the fishes immunity.
Unfortunately, in a new tank, nothing will be healthy because it is the bacteria that run our tanks, not your quarantine tank or medications that I feel are the biggest bane in this hobby and causes way more problems than they cure.

A very new tank with new, white rock, asw and a Noob owner probably should quarantine or as I like best run a diatom filter on that new tank and you won't have o worry about parasites.

That, to me would be the best thing and healthiest for fish using no meds and no quarantine. But not everyone agrees.
 
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ying yang

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That is probably me. :) Yes, my tank is immune and has been for decades, but that won't work in everyones tank and never in a new tank.

I feel almost all tanks are not set up properly and quarantine has little to do with it except maybe destroy some of the fishes immunity.
Unfortunately, in a new tank, nothing will be healthy because it is the bacteria that run our tanks, not your quarantine tank or medications that I feel are the biggest bane in this hobby and causes way more problems than they cure.

A very new tank with new, white rock, asw and a Noob owner probably should quarantine or as I like best run a diatom filter on that new tank and you won't have o worry about parasites.

That, to me would be the best thing and healthiest for fish using no meds and no quarantine. But not everyone agrees.
Yes was you but didn't want to name any names even though most would of guessed.
I like the idea of a diatom filter,I have once briefly tried researching what it does but from your other threads ,I think you say it traps small particles as water Goes through it polishing the water so to speak and added benefit of trapping Any free swimming parasites or something along those lines if memory serves me correct
.sounds interesting and could be a good add on.
 

LiamPM

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Neither is qt if I’m honest. Over the past 10 or so years I’ve kept about 50 fish, they died from ammonia spikes or jumping. I have owned several ich magnets without qt, here’s just a few to name:
- Blue eye kole tang,
- Scopas tang,
- Regal tang.
None of them ever got ich however when I worked in a fish store and they dosed copper in the fish system, there was always Atleast 3 deaths a week. IMO it’s better to just float and pop them into the DT instantly and not risk a death in qt. I have had ich spike in my tank but guess what? They are all still thriving without qt. one of the ones that got the ich was the blue eye kole and he’s still with me. Ich appeared in September and it’s been two months. I’ve owned countless of my fish for 2 years now, I also owned my previous stock that died from an ammonia spike for 2 years. CBBs eat better in a DT than they do in a qt IMO. The reason for this is they can eat all day long and not run out of fauna to thrive on. I had a CBA that came home with an illness (Can’t remember the name of it), I returned it and the LFS qted it… dead within a few days. I let the LFS keep the money because they Atleast tried to help it survive.
I never have and never will qt, I may be getting another fish this weekend (Flashing tilefish) to replace a bully I’m taking in (Jade wrasse), unfortunately nobody knows anything on these guys except the fact they jump and need a peaceful establishing time. I will not qt it when I get it since it was stressed out last weekend and so I think qt would just kill it from stressing too much.
Here’s a photo of one of the three tangs displaying, been two years and I’ve never seen this in him.
FD6FA2BD-085D-4006-8713-BEA0D6F450F4.jpeg
Just curious - but, where did the ammonia spikes come from on those occasions you did lose fish?

Any tank thats been running for even just a good few months with stock should be able to handle a fairly large death without even showing it in terms of ammonia. Bacteria should handle and process it fairly quickly. To a point most could leave a death without noticing it realistically, obviously with CUC doing there thing etc.

Just curious, always wondered what events happen to create ammonia spikes in long running tanks as it general shoudlnt be able to happen.
 

Paul B

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An old school diatom filter would end many of those parasite threads. If used correctly, no fish would die from a parasite at least until they become immune which they will if they are fed correctly, not quarantined to long or medicated.
 
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I do think diseases in our fish supplier and LFS systems is a major and growing problem. Although I don’t know where you got the 80% number…

Since the suppliers seem to be doing nothing about it, as responsible pet owners I think we should.

There are many options to prophylacticly treat fish so you don’t introduce disease. Heck, there are even ways where medications are not used or where we just observe with a black molly. There are also methods to control pathogen numbers in the tank and increase fish immunity so the fish don’t get sick.

Just do some research and make a plan, rather than putting blinders on and pretending like disease is not an issue in reef tanks.

And to those who have fish dying and don’t know why, get an Aquabiomics eDNA test. It will show parasite DNA and you will know what you are dealing with.
 

i cant think

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Just curious - but, where did the ammonia spikes come from on those occasions you did lose fish?

Any tank thats been running for even just a good few months with stock should be able to handle a fairly large death without even showing it in terms of ammonia. Bacteria should handle and process it fairly quickly. To a point most could leave a death without noticing it realistically, obviously with CUC doing there thing etc.

Just curious, always wondered what events happen to create ammonia spikes in long running tanks as it general shoudlnt be able to happen.
The ammonia spiked because of the roomie mistake:
Using sand that was used in a previous tank that was filled with nutrients.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Remake this thread in the fish disease forum so it’s not safe zoned lemme see it on page three.


I notice all responses here come from the single reef owner perspective


this whole thread is about what people think worked best for their tank

whats missing: any data whatsoever that we can link to read what happens in others tanks, none of you have anything on the line for making the assessments and if you ran public work threads, you would and I could read that for proof myself without your summary being the sole proof.

it’s easy to lie, omit bad info outcomes when all the data comes from our own summaries, you all put too much focus on what you can do and there’s little focus on what you can do to stem problems others are having



if that’s wrong, or over generalized about this crowd, show me the work links, insert them right here for me to click —->

my comments come from managing countless linkable right now cycle productions for others, and the endpoint is massive disease issues. Thats where my data comes from, others tanks, this safety thread is just about owners reefs.


Elora


specifically a request for you: omit any example involving your own tank. Link here now a thread where you managed any aspect of reefing for others, they tried the recommend, and logged the results. If you don’t provide that, I’ll think all your data is made up with the bad parts omitted and the good parts played up. Yin yang, remake this exact post in the fish disease forum. If I take time to log outbound cycle work for a decade on others reefs solely and all that data is ready now, you can read it, and I tell you disease is the issue-you would get your notepad out vs give kickback. You wouldn’t take your first year of reefing practice as a go ahead to advise folks to skip qt.

don’t go to a place where clearly most entrants are opposed to disease preps and try and gain support using zero public tank examples.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Every long written post here is an expounded writeup of someone’s tank at home


change that to: show me ten others reefs you’ve managed and expound on that. All this masterful control goes right out the door when other people give the procedural evals.

safe zone, control over all reporting. No external proofing of methods, thats the home based procedural advice method.
 

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Every long written post here is an expounded writeup of someone’s tank at home


change that to: show me ten others reefs you’ve managed and expound on that. All this masterful control goes right out the door when other people give the procedural evals.

safe zone, control over all reporting. No external proofing of methods, thats the home based procedural advice method.
I don't think I need to qualify what the director of a public aquarium told me years ago. What he told me not only makes sense but has also ensured my tanks (freshwater and marine) and ponds have been disease free over the past 20 years.

We are all entitled to our opinions, views and methods and as long as we treat our animals with respect and great care, there really isn't a right or wrong.
 
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